Eclectus weight

[bosh]

Just a question for those who might have some insight.

My SI Ekkie boy Pancho was hatched in mid-November 2019, so he's about seven months old now. When I last weighed him first thing yesterday morning, his weight was 292 grams. When I brought him home in late March, he was 308 grams, although the lady who hand-raised him said that it wasn't unusual for baby birds to lose a small amount of "baby weight." His weight has remained in the 290 - 300 gram range since a couple of weeks after I brought him home.

Is this normal for an Ekkie boy his age - "normal" meaning he's not underweight, and it's not unusual for his weight to have stayed within this range for a few months? He's got an excellent appetite on a fresh fruit and veggie diet(with small amounts of pellets, nuts, and other treats), good energy, loves to socialize, and always appears very content.

Here are a few recent photos of him, for good measure! Thanks.

 

[Monaco]

Hi @bosh , great pictures! I bet @mythic55 will have an answer for you.

 

[mythic55]

Good morning @bosh ,

SI generally should be much heavier than that (350's to 400g by 8 months when they go through a stressful molt). Generally I like to young ones no less than 340g (after completion of weaning- because yes, they can lose a few of the baby weight when the formula ceases- however after that they should start to fill out again).

Couple questions:
Did you brush your fingers over the keel bone? It is a vertical line on the tummy- the tissue on either side will be one of three things:
Convex, concave or flush.
You are looking for it to be flush (or near that).
If the bone feels increasingly sharp on the edges that would be a concern.
May I ask which is the most recent picture? Im also looking for any other signs (like the beak coloration). The early or late beak color change can also be an indicator.

When I speak to individuals with ekkies there are significant reports of being too thin- which interestinly enough can stunt the growth and put stress on the liver (just like being obese).

 

[bosh]

Hi @mythic55! Thank you for your reply.

SI generally should be much heavier than that (350's to 400g by 8 months when they go through a stressful molt). Generally I like to young ones no less than 340g (after completion of weaning- because yes, they can lose a few of the baby weight when the formula ceases- however after that they should start to fill out again).

That was my gut feeling and concern as well - that he might be small or underweight for his age. I'd seen general weight ranges for Ekkies posted in various forums online, which is what led me to post this question.

Did you brush your fingers over the keel bone? It is a vertical line on the tummy- the tissue on either side will be one of three things:
Convex, concave or flush.
You are looking for it to be flush (or near that).
If the bone feels increasingly sharp on the edges that would be a concern.

I can feel the edge of his keel bone down the midline of his tummy, mostly in the upper chest area, and it becomes less palpable/pronounced moving down. It's not exceedingly sharp or protruding where I feel it. The tissue on either side is virtually flush with the keel bone - it doesn't seem concave or convex.

May I ask which is the most recent picture? Im also looking for any other signs (like the beak coloration). The early or late beak color change can also be an indicator.

The most recent photo in this set is the final one, where he's looking directly into the camera, and is from yesterday, 16 June 2020. The second-to-last photo was taken just a day or two prior to that, while he was relaxing before bedtime. All but the first photo were taken within the last 2.5 - 3 weeks or so.

Thank you again, @mythic55. You are always so kind and willing to share your Ekkie expertise, and I(and I'm sure everyone on this forum!) appreciate it.

 

[mythic55]

Hi @mythic55! Thank you for your reply.

That was my gut feeling and concern as well - that he might be small or underweight for his age. I'd seen general weight ranges for Ekkies posted in various forums online, which is what led me to post this question.

Its no problem, I am always here for ekkie needs. Often I cant reply fast as quickly as I would like- so I am available by PM or tag me if it is urgent. So im here for you, as well as the entire community on AA.

It is good that it doesnt feel concave- but I would wonder about that weight. The smallest SI I have ever known of was a full blood- in solomon islands.... Full grown male weight was 305 (he had a large energy expenditure in a full flight and was severely bullied) but he had serious medical conditions as well.

Question:
1. Would it be possible for you to measure top to tail? (I know this may sound asinine, but I would like to compare. At 7 months they should have their full tail length- ... granted, try and get an ekkie to sit still.... that is a skill in itself. But try to measure when he is at rest (not agitated, down his back from tip to tail. CM is better than inches if possible.
2. Is you ekkie molting? (you will see colored feathers all over the house, but he may not show it on his body)
3. When did he get off formula? (fully weaned... and did you or the breeder do it?)

There are tell tale signs for development and age of ekkies (similar to how you can make assumptions of age in parakeets from the nares) and very subtle signs of malnutrition. Judging by that beak and the recommended hatch date, it doesnt fully comprehend in my mind. Lets keep exploring this, hang in there and dont get overworked. Ekkies feel emotion.

 

[mythic55]

Just to give you an idea- this is standard beak coloring for a nearly 6 mo old:
(sorry he is going through a molt....lol)

 

[bosh]

@mythic55:

1. Would it be possible for you to measure top to tail? (I know this may sound asinine, but I would like to compare.

Not asinine at all! I measured him, and from the top of his head to the tip of his tailfeathers, he is about 32-33 cm in length.

2. Is you ekkie molting? (you will see colored feathers all over the house, but he may not show it on his body)

I haven’t seen any of his colored feathers dropping, but I do see(with decreasing frequency) some of his grey “baby fuzz” dropping off. It’s almost entirely gone now, but I still do see some floating down occasionally when he gives a little shake to readjust his feathers.

3. When did he get off formula? (fully weaned... and did you or the breeder do it?)

I was told that he was fully weaned from formula about a week before I took him home, and that he had been eating his veggies and fruit at that point without issue. That would have been approximately the third week of March 2020.


Given the beak color, weight, etc., does this seem like a case where his age is probably younger than originally stated, or do you suspect an underlying health issue? I’ve contacted a different avian specialty vet in a town further from where I live just in case, to see if an appointment is necessary. I’ve been seeing a vet here in San Francisco who is stated to be more specialized in avian health, but I became a little wary when she recommended that all parrots’ diet be “80% pelleted,” when that goes against everything I’ve read and been told by others about Ekkies’ nutritional needs. I love this little guy, and want to make sure I do absolutely right by him and give him the best quality of life possible.

 

[Monaco]

@mythic55:

Not asinine at all! I measured him, and from the top of his head to the tip of his tailfeathers, he is about 32-33 cm in length.


I haven’t seen any of his colored feathers dropping, but I do see(with decreasing frequency) some of his grey “baby fuzz” dropping off. It’s almost entirely gone now, but I still do see some floating down occasionally when he gives a little shake to readjust his feathers.


I was told that he was fully weaned from formula about a week before I took him home, and that he had been eating his veggies and fruit at that point without issue. That would have been approximately the third week of March 2020.


Given the beak color, weight, etc., does this seem like a case where his age is probably younger than originally stated, or do you suspect an underlying health issue? I’ve contacted a different avian specialty vet in a town further from where I live just in case, to see if an appointment is necessary. I’ve been seeing a vet here in San Francisco who is stated to be more specialized in avian health, but I became a little wary when she recommended that all parrots’ diet be “80% pelleted,” when that goes against everything I’ve read and been told by others about Ekkies’ nutritional needs. I love this little guy, and want to make sure I do absolutely right by him and give him the best quality of life possible.

We have two avian vets within an hour's drive. The first one I tried recommended the same thing despite my arguments and offering different information. It's more frightening that they think they know, rather than just not knowing. Offer some research, and see if they are willing to learn more about ekkies for you.

I may also have to drive to find a good one too.

 

[mythic55]

Not asinine at all! I measured him, and from the top of his head to the tip of his tailfeathers, he is about 32-33 cm in length.

That is standard ekkie length (granted this is not exactly the most accurate measurement). Ok, by my calculations that is low weight, of that length- the lowest I have on record is 353g.

I haven’t seen any of his colored feathers dropping, but I do see(with decreasing frequency) some of his grey “baby fuzz” dropping off. It’s almost entirely gone now, but I still do see some floating down occasionally when he gives a little shake to readjust his feathers.

Ok, not molting... Molting involves a large mass of feather loss and new pin feathers.

I would agree it is either he was younger than originally stated (which is VERY common in ekkies as they become a bother to feed... breeders want them off of formula and leave it up to their new humans to get them to eat solid food by 'forcing'). I will say I have weaned hundreds of birds- ekkies are by far the most difficult as they require such unique dietary requirements. However Ekkies will find a favorite food and disregard everything else, so it seems as if they are consuming much more, which causes malnutrition.

Ekkies are master of disguise for medical conditions and picky eaters.

Lets do an experiment shall we?
Weight your bird in the morning after the first BM. Then let him consume food (no water) for about 1 hour. Then weigh him again.
Dont worry about not providing water as the fresh food is the optimal injestion method of fluids, and it is only 1 hour. This way we can get an inaccurate (lol) account of how much he is actually consuming. So much is flung on the walls, floors, (ceiling) it is hard to judge consumption from weighing the actual food bowl.

As @Monaco mentioned- Veterinarians are NOT trained in Ekkies. They also used to recommend lorikeets eat seeds and pellets just a few years ago (ugh). From a bare science standpoint- lessons have been learned, but the vet community has not been taught. There are very good veterinarians in Australia I met, but even then few and far between.

You are doing right- stay positive

 

[mythic55]

*I guess I should say, 'after he is done eating' (that may be more than an hour, or 20 minutes depending on the bird)

 

[bosh]

Thanks, @mythic55 and @Monaco.

Prior to breakfast this morning, his weight was about 295 g, and after breakfast, he was 305 g.

Given that it seems that he is younger than originally stated, do you think that, if he was weaned prematurely, this could have impacted his growth(and overall health) permanently for the worse, or is there a chance he could "catch up" and end up within the typical weight range for ekkies as he grows up?

I'm also considering trying a new kitchen scale, just to ensure accuracy, and that it's not just my little scale freaking out.

 

[Monaco]

Thanks, @mythic55 and @Monaco.

Prior to breakfast this morning, his weight was about 295 g, and after breakfast, he was 305 g.

Given that it seems that he is younger than originally stated, do you think that, if he was weaned prematurely, this could have impacted his growth(and overall health) permanently for the worse, or is there a chance he could "catch up" and end up within the typical weight range for ekkies as he grows up?

I'm also considering trying a new kitchen scale, just to ensure accuracy, and that it's not just my little scale freaking out.

You can use water as a weight check. Water volume in ounces is equal to its weight in ounces.

 

[mythic55]

Thanks, @mythic55 and @Monaco.

Prior to breakfast this morning, his weight was about 295 g, and after breakfast, he was 305 g.

Given that it seems that he is younger than originally stated, do you think that, if he was weaned prematurely, this could have impacted his growth(and overall health) permanently for the worse, or is there a chance he could "catch up" and end up within the typical weight range for ekkies as he grows up?

I'm also considering trying a new kitchen scale, just to ensure accuracy, and that it's not just my little scale freaking out.

(Ill answer the first portion of the question when I have two hands in a matter of minutes (im working with one hand because an ekkie is throwing a 'i need to be cuddled tantrum')

What kind of scale do you have? Your scale just may be off for 'bird weight' because it is different than flour

I always recommend an actual bird stand scale (you will use it more than you would think), the tail will dip on food grade and can alter results- this 6 mo old (sick) ekkie on a proper scale. I like it because it plugs into the wall (not failing batteries).

 

[mythic55]

Given that it seems that he is younger than originally stated, do you think that, if he was weaned prematurely, this could have impacted his growth(and overall health) permanently for the worse, or is there a chance he could "catch up" and end up within the typical weight range for ekkies as he grows up?

Sorry about that. Sometimes you have to take positive moments with ekkies as a blessing and use them to your advantage- which inevitably means i was writing with my left hand only (im rt handed).

To answer your question:
After consuming a breakfast meal I (usually) desire 15g+ yield (with no excess water).
I do believe often they can catch up, but there is a period now when increasing the caloric/nutritional intake of your ekkie might prove vital.

However depending on your scale?- everything could be ok and he was just 'leaning the wrong way' ???

 

[bosh]

I always recommend an actual bird stand scale (you will use it more than you would think), the tail will dip on food grade and can alter results- this 6 mo old (sick) ekkie on a proper scale. I like it because it plugs into the wall (not failing batteries).

Mine is a kitchen scale that looks similar to your scale, save for without the perch/t-stand. Where did you find your bird scale, if you don't mind me asking? I'd love to have one like that at home, especially if it's more comfortable and accurate.

I do believe often they can catch up, but there is a period now when increasing the caloric/nutritional intake of your ekkie might prove vital.

Do you have any specific recommendations on how to properly increase the caloric intake - feeding more of a specific type of food, etc.?

 

[mythic55]

Im in a bit of a rush at the moment, ill respond to your first question. Then delve deeper into the second.

The T stand is paramount as the tail touching the base/movement of their talons is uneasy on the metal surface, etc

I bought mine on Amazon: Digital Bird Scale.

 

[bosh]

Im in a bit of a rush at the moment, ill respond to your first question. Then delve deeper into the second.

The T stand is paramount as the tail touching the base/movement of their talons is uneasy on the metal surface, etc

I bought mine on Amazon: Digital Bird Scale.

Thanks! And no worries, please don’t rush yourself on my account. You’ve been an enormous help already.

 

[mythic55]

When trying to help ekkies gain weight, and easy option is providing more 'treats' (like nuts or seeds) - increasing the frequency of training sessions. But also serving more calorie dense foods- here are a few ideas:

• Any dried fruit and vegetables, because of the lack of water, there calorie value by mass is increased
• Fresh coconut is very calorie dense as it contains fat
• Semi dride fruit: dates, apricots, etc that have a soft texture (but these pack a lot of sugar, so make sure it is a 'flight training' day to burn a bit and keep to a minimum)
• Fruits that contain noticeably more calories: mangoes, banana
• Higher calorie vegetables: peas, parnsips, sweet potatoes,
• Try making some smoothies, you can get creative with a mixture of the higher calorie fruits/veggies
• Add a few more legumes or beans
• Healthier grains (like quinoa, legume pasta, rice) and you can mix in a touch of red palm oil while it is warm. This provides a burst of vitmainA (but only a tiny amount)
• Integrating nut butters into foraging

The ones that take a bit more effort but are sure to please: Spicy banana bread! (you can use rice and coconut flour mixture, banana, an egg, some mango juice, chopped up hot peppers, handful of chop, sprinkle of seeds, tumeric, cinnamon, bake. Provide a slice first thing in the morning-

 

[mythic55]

Thanks! And no worries, please don’t rush yourself on my account. You’ve been an enormous help already.

You are very kind

 

[mythic55]

@bosh
Just remember, these are inremental, not drastic changes. Watch the droppings- some change is expected, but if feces become 'unformed' or urates (the white part) become green or yellow, or there is not adequate urine. Let us know.

After these little changes, you may find the weight to differ (day by day, hour by hour). But the most important tracking is week by week. Please post if you have any other questions, comments or otherwise. Please update as well- There is a community here to help who cares about you and your feathered friend