Pros and Cons of clipping wings

[Just-passn-thru]

Here's an interesting link about wing clipping...PROS & CONS

Debate Topic: Birds should not be caged as pets. | Debate.org

 

[Pipsqueak]

Why does it matter if it is legal or illegal if it is proven that a healthy bird is a flighted bird. To the person that clips their budgies wings, I have never heard of such a thing in such a small bird, what is the reason? And how does a bird look happy or not depressed, birds do not have facial impressions like humans ,doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Pipsqueak]

I was just reading about the regulations in Germany. The trim is not illegal but the animal protection law states that you can be punished if the trim leads to harm / health issues in the bird.

 

[BeeBop]

Why does it matter if it is legal or illegal if it is proven that a healthy bird is a flighted bird. To the person that clips their budgies wings, I have never heard of such a thing in such a small bird, what is the reason? And how does a bird look happy or not depressed, birds do not have facial impressions like humans ,doesn't make any sense to me.

Well yes, good point BUT one of the articles posted was describing an unconfident shaking bird with obvious distress. That's obvious. Also, clipping a budgies wings does have valid reasons, and the same ones you would use for a large bird. Why does it matter whether the bird is large or small?

 

[Pipsqueak]

Well yes, good point BUT one of the articles posted was describing an unconfident shaking bird with obvious distress. That's obvious. Also, clipping a budgies wings does have valid reasons, and the same ones you would use for a large bird. Why does it matter whether the bird is large or small?

Care to elaborate? What is the reason? My smaller birds have no problem flying around the house, I could see a problem for injury in a bigger bird if the room is not big enough to fly. But then again, the environment should be adjusted to the needs of the bird not the bird adjusted to fit in the environment.

 

[BeeBop]

I think the one thing we can agree on is that this thread could go on forever. People will be on opposite sides of the fence till people quit owning birds.

 

[BeeBop]

Care to elaborate? What is the reason? My smaller birds have no problem flying around the house, I could see a problem for injury in a bigger bird if the room is not big enough to fly. But then again, the environment should be adjusted to the needs of the bird not the bird adjusted to fit in the environment.

There have been many reasons stated again and again over the course of time. Whether they apply to you or not is of course up to your situation.

 

[Pipsqueak]

There have been many reasons stated again and again over the course of time. Whether they apply to you or not is of course up to your situation.

I was asking specifically for your situation, I am curious, I know a lot of people that own budgies and non of them clipped their wings, I have just never heard of it. Never heard of someone clipping finches either.

 

[XstatyK]

Why does it matter if it is legal or illegal if it is proven that a healthy bird is a flighted bird. To the person that clips their budgies wings, I have never heard of such a thing in such a small bird, what is the reason? And how does a bird look happy or not depressed, birds do not have facial impressions like humans ,doesn't make any sense to me.

Hi, I think the debate portion is proven to be one that will never end.
Mizzely did provide a very good post at the beginning of this thread on pros of keeping a flighted bird. (good read)

Later she also provided a brief explanation on what she believes to be a method of "clipped correctly"
So there will never be an agreed upon answer due to there being too many cases and opinions.
But I gather the general consensus is that a flighted bird is best if possible at all times.

However it seems the conversation has shifted into educating on whether or not it is illegal in any country or not.

If you search online for "is it illegal to trim your birds wings" for example you will surely run into other discussions where people say that it is illegal to do so, but none of those mentions have provided a valid source for it.

The two common country choices have been Sweden and Germany.
We did indeed determine here that it is NOT illegal to trim your birds wings in Sweden.
It is actually permitted by the regulations with other rules. (Link in post by Valkyria regarding Rules and Regulations)

So that is 1 of 2 popular choices that have been debunked.

If we can find out about Germany and finally provide facts, we may be able to finally prove this right or wrong once and for all.

 

[BeeBop]

I was asking specifically for your situation, I am curious, I know a lot of people that own budgies and non of them clipped their wings, I have just never heard of it. Never heard of someone clipping finches either.

Well I wouldn't clip a finches wings because as far as I know most people don't get them out. I've never owned them though so I'm not sure if that is common or not. I clip for safety reasons. There are other people in the house that will at one time or another forget the bird is out or onknownligly (spelling sorry) open the door. I had him get out, that's scary. I'm not in any way setting his life up for clipping just so you know. My dream is to have an aviary with double doors so nothing is to worry. It would be pretty easy to set that kind of thing up.

 

[XstatyK]

I was just reading about the regulations in Germany. The trim is not illegal but the animal protection law states that you can be punished if the trim leads to harm / health issues in the bird.

Can you share the link to the regulations you read please?

 

[Pipsqueak]

Can you share the link to the regulations you read please?

TierSchG - Tierschutzgesetz
Animal protection law of Germany

Artikel 1
Nobody must cause harm, pain or damage to an animal in their care (this is not word for word) without reasonable cause.

Nach §2 (2) TierschutzG darf, wer ein Tier hält, betreut oder zu betreuen hat, die Möglichkeit
des Tieres zu artgemäßer Bewegung nicht so einschränken, dass ihm Schmerzen
oder vermeidbare Leiden oder Schäden zugefügt werden.

This is from the organization of veterinarians

Amputationen wie in Methode 1 und 2 beschrieben, sind durch das Tierschutzgesetz
verboten. Auch die in Methode 3 beschriebene Gewebezerstörung ist als Amputation
anzusehen und daher ebenfalls verboten. Ein Verstoß gegen das Amputationsverbot ist
gemäß § 18 Tierschutzgesetz als Ordnungswidrigkeit zu werten.
Durch alle Methoden des Flugunfähigmachens wird die artgemäße Bewegung von Papageien
so eingeschränkt, dass ihnen vermeidbare Leiden und Schäden zugefügt werden.
Treten infolge des Flugunfähigmachens Verhaltensstörungen auf, muss von einer
Erheblichkeit ausgegangen werden. Kommt es zu Verletzungen als Folge des Flugunfähigmachens,
werden den Tieren auch Schmerzen zugefügt. Es ist kein vernünftiger
Grund dafür erkennbar, einen Vogel an seiner artgemäßen Fortbewegungsart - dem
Fliegen - zu hindern.

 

[BeeBop]

I can understand some words of those since I'm learning German, but not all. Can you translate that last chunk? @Pipsqueak

 

[XstatyK]

Thanks @Pipsqueak , this may be too general but thanks for sharing. I'm trying to see if there is something that specifically provides info around bird wing trimming.

 

[Pipsqueak]

I can understand some words of those since I'm learning German, but not all. Can you translate that last chunk? @Pipsqueak

Germany - Cruelty - German Animal Welfare Act | Animal Legal & Historical Center

First two articles of the law

Article 1

The aim of this Act is to protect the lives and well-being of animals, based on the responsibility of human beings for their fellow creatures. No one may cause an animal pain, suffering or harm without good reason.

Section II : Animal Husbandry
Article 2
Any person keeping, caring for or required to care for an animal:

1. must provide the animal with food, care and housing appropriate to its species, its requirements and behaviour;

2. may not restrict the animal's possibility of species-specific freedom of movement to such an extent as to cause the animal pain or avoidable suffering or harm;

3. must possess the knowledge and skills necessary for providing the animal with adequate food, care and housing in accordance with its behavioural requirements.

The other part I posted is from the association of veterinarians , that argues that clipping is in violation of article 1 and article 2/2 of the law, since clipping can lead to lung disease, liver disease, plucking and pain caused by injury through clipping.

It is late and I am not up to translating more but as mentioned before , I have no interest if it is legal or illegal. It should be about the welfare of the animal. That is why I do not agree that this discussion is never ending, it should be. It is proven that it is not in the best interest of the bird to restrict its movements for health reasons. At least I would like people to admit that it is for personal convenience of the owner.

 

[XstatyK]

For the sake of the curiosity of others among other things - I googled whether or not there is a law of not clipping in Germany. I did not find anything outright stating that it was. Here's the interesting part - which some may have confused.
" Clipping" sometimes regards a practice that IS illegal of cutting of part of a birds actual wing. It is more proper to use the term trimming. But, anyways there is nothing that states clipping a bird's wing FEATHERS is illegal in Germany. If you have proof that TRIMMING is illegal I would like to see a link because my interest is peaked. If you don't have a link word of mouth will not prove it to me - just saying. It's really weird reasoning that they would make wing TRIMMING illegal because the feathers do grow back out.

Actually I think this is a very good point and this could very well be the source of all the confusion at least in Germany.
Could it be a simple mistake where the translation was misinterpreted between German and English language?
Clip vs Trim

A member here seemed to misinterpret this very thing back in 2010
(There's mention of law but no source. But if she was referring to mutilation of the wing by cutting or removing bone then I can find a source for that right now, I think we all agree mutilation is not accepted in any country, or at least modern civilized countries) Read the last sentence for an example of a possible misinterpretation.

[QUOTE="One of the laws is - that there is a absolutely NO NO NO NO Never ... for clipping wings. (Because a bird has wings to fly)

Now I see that lots of things are basicly different in Germany and the hole world. I want to find and understand these differents.

Please tell me any reason, why you don´t want your birds to fly excellently like they do in free nature.

(I don´t know anyone to clip his dogs or cats feet to keep it from running away! For me - it´s the same!)[/QUOTE]

That would be amazing if all this controversy stemmed from a simple misinterpretation of the meanings between languages.

As Beebop mentioned
"feathers do grow back out"

 

[Pipsqueak]

Thanks @Pipsqueak , this may be too general but thanks for sharing. I'm trying to see if there is something that specifically provides info around bird wing trimming.[/Q

Out of genuine interest how do ilnessss occur over clipping @Pipsqueak ? Are they do to the assumption that people that clip their birds lack giving them excercise or something? Or is it a another reason? I am open to hear.

Is that even a serious question? Why do you think they have wings instead of two more feet? They are meant to fly not walk.
Not my words:

Yes, without flying there is a serious lack of exercise in a bird, even if they can fly a bird in captivity gets a lot less flight than it would normally have. Birds are not meant to walk, they have wings for a reason.
Now more than ever the avian veterinary team is aware of the need for captive parrots to be stimulated both mentally and physically. In many instances, birds that do not fly become sedentary and are more likely to develop a myriad of health problems including obesity, arthritis, pododermatitis, atherosclerosis, or hypercholesterolemia, all of which can contribute to a shorter lifespan. Considering the distances these birds are meant fly daily in the wild while foraging, evading predators, hunting, and looking for roosting sites, it is remarkable that they do not succumb to more illnesses in captivity when deprived of this valuable exercise opportunity.

We also see many birds in captivity with “behavior disorders” that do not exist in nature. For example, feather destructive behavior or self-mutilation, incessant screaming, over-aggression, and inappropriate pair-bonding with humans. We should not forget that flying is the greatest natural ability bird’s have. By depriving them of it, we may be setting them up for irreversible behavioral abnormalities.

 

[Pipsqueak]

Actually I think this is a very good point and this could very well be the source of all the confusion at least in Germany.
Could it be a simple mistake where the translation was misinterpreted between German and English language?
Clip vs Trim

A member here seemed to misinterpret this very thing back in 2010
(There's mention of law but no source. But if she was referring to mutilation of the wing by cutting or removing bone then I can find a source for that right now, I think we all agree mutilation is not accepted in any country, or at least modern civilized countries) Read the last sentence for an example of a possible misinterpretation.

[QUOTE="One of the laws is - that there is a absolutely NO NO NO NO Never ... for clipping wings. (Because a bird has wings to fly)

Now I see that lots of things are basicly different in Germany and the hole world. I want to find and understand these differents.

Please tell me any reason, why you don´t want your birds to fly excellently like they do in free nature.

(I don´t know anyone to clip his dogs or cats feet to keep it from running away! For me - it´s the same!)

That would be amazing if all this controversy stemmed from a simple misinterpretation of the meanings between languages.


No, nothing to do with translation , veterinarians differentiate between amputation and clipping, the are speaking of three different methods , clipping being the third method but still agree that is causes harm to the bird. Regarding cats and dogs, you cannot declaw your cat in Germany , you can't dock a dogs tail or ears etc. Because they are protected by the law.
As Beebop mentioned
"feathers do grow back out"[/QUOTE]

 

[BeeBop]

Well yes it was a serious question. I don't know everything about parrots thus I'm going to have a few questions that others know like the back of their hand. Were there any studies that had birds that were clipped having these issues? Because I've heard of birds that were not clipped that had these same issues. I was hoping there was some sort of bridge for connection. This said this is my last post seriously because I feel that this debate is going to go on forever. All I know is my bird is happy (and please don't try to tell me he's not over the internet, no disrespect) and I'm happy with that.

 

[Newbie GCC]

Seems there is a lot of people already giving the reason why you should not clip. Rhoma came to me clipped and absolutely no confidence. Her confidence came when her wings grew back and she learned to fly for the 1st time in her life. Yes, she crashed a few times, fortunately no injuries. I put stickers on the windows and things to perch on in front of it. And she LEARNED and her confidence GREW! And she is healthier and so much happier. She came to me at 54 grams. No muscle mass. She is now a much healthier 62 grams with muscle.
Ernie butchers his secondaries on his own. I got him in January this year. He has huge confidence issues. He is unsteady and unsure of himself. If he stumbles, he overcompensates his reaction and actually makes his fall worse. He has hit the ground a few times. Again, fortunately no injuries. Will he ever fly at 13 to 16 years old? I don't know. Does he want to? YES! He does want to. How do I know he wants to? He will jump to me and flap those wings for all they are worth. He has progressed from falling like a rock to a fall with just a touch of forward glide. We have put grape wood with bark still on it around the top of his cage to give him grip. I made him a playstand out of grapewood that he can get to from his cage. His confidence is increasing a little at a time. He no longer over reacts to every little stumble. His butchering is decreased, but may be a forever habit at this point. He does have some secondaries for the first time in Lord knows how many years though. I have seen him flap his wings, while holding onto his perches a couple times. He wants to fly.

Outside time is in a travel cage for all of my birds. Stories of clipped birds getting lost or still "flying" off abound on this page and every other one that I have come across. It is not worth the risk. I remember one that even flew off in a harness because the owner was not holding the leash portion well enough to prevent it.