Insightful article on pellets!

[Big Badeepie]

I just think the two communities should work together more. Though I am happy to see that there are some vet run food makers out there these days. Need more of them honestly.

 

[Jaguar]

I think you're confusing the veterinary community with the pet food industry. The veterinary community has every reason to develop a better diet (Lafeber comes to mind) because, and I can't believe I have to say this, their entire basis for being is TO HELP ANIMALS.

OF COURSE the veterinary community wants animals to have balanced nutrition and to have long, healthy lives. If every exam were purely wellness it would be boring and wonderful. Caring is the entire reason there are studies surrounding the nutritional needs across species. If they were only interested in what they could sell you they'd stick with seed and be done with it. Without veterinary professionals doing their best for pets we would be even more in the dark then we are now.

I misspoke! Was super distracted while writing that. You're right.

 

[Mizzely]

@Jaguar the pet food industry has been able to figure out a way to market raw meat diets for cats and dogs! Who knows what they'll come up with parrots in 10 years? Still there has to be money in it, and demand of course.

 

[Jaguar]

@Jaguar the pet food industry has been able to figure out a way to market raw meat diets for cats and dogs! Who knows what they'll come up with parrots in 10 years? Still there has to be money in it, and demand of course.

Have you seen the price of it!?

There's a big hype for "natural" things right now. Everyone is scared of cancer and "chemicals". Some good does come of it.

 

[LunaLovebird]

No, not at all but you see a lot of pets never fed with anything fresh.

I would speculate that the people who aren't feeding fresh foods are also the ones not feeding pellets, and going with an all-seed diet instead, so I'm not sure your statement has any relevance.

I find the argument that pellets aren't found in the wild to be entirely unconvincing. Captive parrots don't have access to a lot of things their wild counterparts do, so why would anyone think it's a good idea to mimic their diets? They don't get as much exercise, and depending on where you live, you're probably not going to have access to the exact same blend of seeds, vegetation, nuts and fruit anyway.

IMO, The best we can do is improvise and provide as much balance as possible. A lot of birds won't eat any old thing you put in front of them in the way of vegetables, making it hard to get in the requisite amounts of vitamins, etc. using fresh food alone. Not to mention the fact that many of us work and are busy during the day, and you don't generally want to leave fresh food out to rot for 8 hours. That's where pellets are a good thing.

Also, that pellets contain synthetic vitamins is really not a negative. They have the exact same chemical structure as the same vitamin from a natural source, and so have exactly the same biological effects. There is literally no difference. I cannot stress that enough.

Have you seen the price of it!?

There's a big hype for "natural" things right now. Everyone is scared of cancer and "chemicals". Some good does come of it.

Chemophobia is probably one of the most ridiculous things out there right now. Being natural or organic does not make something any better. Similarly, just because you can't pronounce something doesn't make it bad. People need to focus their skepticism more intelligently. And I'm not really sure what good comes out of it when you consider that it leads to a reduction in things like vaccination rates, except maybe that it is probably also fueling a boost in the economy from people paying absurd amounts of money for a label that means essentially nothing. But that's neither here nor there. In terms of diets for our fids and other types of fur babies, I don't think you need the lens of a thing having to be 'natural' to come up with a product that allows us to secure longer, happier lives for them. Nature is a great resource, but careful consideration of context is important.

 

[Mizzely]

.
Also, that pellets contain synthetic vitamins is really not a negative. They have the exact same chemical structure as the same vitamin from a natural source, and so have exactly the same biological effects. There is literally no difference. I cannot stress that enough.

There is at least one exception that I know of offhand: Vitamin A. It is definitely possible to overdose on Vitamin A, but when obtained through vegetables in the form of beta carotene it is not. I am not advocating that synthetic vitamins are bad, and I also would wager birds have higher Vitamin A needs than a lot of other animals, but I thought it was worth noting.

 

[LunaLovebird]

There is at least one exception that I know of offhand: Vitamin A. It is definitely possible to overdose on Vitamin A, but when obtained through vegetables in the form of beta carotene it is not. I am not advocating that synthetic vitamins are bad, and I also would wager birds have higher Vitamin A needs than a lot of other animals, but I thought it was worth noting.

Sorry, I wasn't accusing anyone specifically of saying that. It was a general comment. I'm also not disagreeing with you on your point on vitamin A. I would also point out that vitamin A is a very common deficiency in parrots, and as you note, the amount required by parrots is massive by comparison to us. I read somewhere that one kg of parrot requires as much vitamin A as an entire person would. I don't think overdosing is as much of an issue. Beta carotene and vitamin A are not structurally identical, and they aren't called the same thing. I wasn't claiming that they were (I was really saying that an atom of carbon I get from a plant is the same as an atom of carbon I find in the lab). I take your point that the natural source of this vitamin vs the synthetic one is not the same and have different biological consequences, but I would counter that the particular example of vitamin A in parrots isn't so relevant here for the reasons given.

 

[Mizzely]

Sorry, I wasn't accusing anyone specifically of saying that. It was a general comment. I'm also not disagreeing with you on your point on vitamin A. I would also point out that vitamin A is a very common deficiency in parrots, and as you note, the amount required by parrots is massive by comparison to us. I read somewhere that one kg of parrot requires as much vitamin A as an entire person would. I don't think overdosing is as much of an issue. Beta carotene and vitamin A are not structurally identical, and they aren't called the same thing. I wasn't claiming that they were (I was really saying that an atom of carbon I get from a plant is the same as an atom of carbon I find in the lab). I take your point that the natural source of this vitamin vs the synthetic one is not the same and have different biological consequences, but I would counter that the particular example of vitamin A in parrots isn't so relevant here for the reasons given.

I suppose my point was more that when you are dealing with synthetic vitamins, even though they are the same, it is possible and easier to overdose on them than the natural counterparts. I don't think that's likely a hazard for any of our birds with the formulated diets available, and Vitamin A was simply my example, but realistically any fat soluble vitamin can be overdosed.

Truthfully, my argument isn't really adding to the conversation in a meaningful way, it was a tangent born of it being 1am here lol. Sorry for derailing!

 

[LunaLovebird]

I suppose my point was more that when you are dealing with synthetic vitamins, even though they are the same, it is possible and easier to overdose on them than the natural counterparts. I don't think that's likely a hazard for any of our birds with the formulated diets available, and Vitamin A was simply my example, but realistically any fat soluble vitamin can be overdosed.

Truthfully, my argument isn't really adding to the conversation in a meaningful way, it was a tangent born of it being 1am here lol. Sorry for derailing!

That's a fair point, although really the only vitamins it applies to is A and to some extent D. In any case, I think we both agree on my main argument that the fact that there are synthetic vitamins in pellets is not a reason not to use them. As you've said, they are the same, even if some of them aren't structurally the same as the natural source in a few cases. Moreover, the risk of overdose on those vitamins for which that is the case (really only vitamin A) would surely be minimal to non existent given that dosage is considered in the formulation.

 

[Vera]

I think that feeding whole, fresh foods make the best diet. problem is that you wouldn't know for sure what they get nutrient wise. vegetables also contain lots of water, how much vitamins are actual in that small piece of veggie that the bird does eat?
also, if i want my birds to eat fresh foods, i have to offer only fresh produce all day, if i feed anything else they would ignore the fresh food, no matter how it is prepared or fed.
i work full time and have gone down this road for a while, my birds had bacterial infections twice and i had t o put them on AB. now i offer pellets during the day,s ome sprouted or cooked food in the afternoon and a small part seeds in the evening, everything goes well.
i will never force the fresh foods on them again like i did before, because it means they would eat it eventualy, but with an overload of bacteria due to beeing in the cage all day.
Tops pellets contain dried veggies and herbs, so they do eat veggies, only not fresh. for enzymes they are fed sprouted seeds and cooked pulses.
a part harrison's high potency provides a nutrient back up. i also supplement with calcivet twice a week and offer red palm oil twice a week. they also eay walnut and egg in the weekend.
i believe this diet gives a great balance.
i have calculated that the diet would be short in some nutrients when feeding a small amount f harrisons, but the nutrients that are deficient are provided with the extra stuff i feed.

 

[Ella.pi]

My birds eat mainly fresh food and never cooked seeds/grains only sprouted ones because I feel like that's the best for them. My avian vet however doesn't agree with me. He feels like pellets have all the nutritional value my parrots need and it should represent 80% of their diet with only 20% of vegetables and fruit. (not because he makes money selling them! he doesn't sell the brand I use and still wants me to give more of it.) However, my birds being perfectly healthy and having nothing wrong in their blood work to this day... he hasn't got much to say against their diet. He doesn't like sprouted food because of the risk of bacterial infection either but i'm extremely careful when I prepare them and I don't keep them in the fridge more than a few days or leave them in their cage for more than a few hours. My pis have never had a becterial problem.

For one thing, I don't believe every parrot has exactly the same nutritional needs so I don't see how one brand of pellets could fit so many different species. I also think that natural vitamins in fresh food are better assimilated. Also, they have a more varied diet doing it "my way" so a better chance of getting everything they need out of it. (although we still have very little information on the best diet for pionus parrots...) That being said, i'm not against pellets either! (well... not the best "natural organic" brands anyway.) They're proven to be much better for parrots than the whole seed diet and let's face it... many people still feed whole seed with very little fresh food. It's a good thing for their parrots to have a healthy alternative!

I personaly think variety is key in any diet so I do feed a bit of pellets daily (20% of their diet) just so they benefit from added vitamins and more nutrients and so they can eat more of them if I have to leave them to my mother for a weekend or holidays and don't want to worry about the sanitary risk of her giving them sprouted food. Also, they love them! (Beaphar care+ eclectus&caïques) so I only use them as foraging treats rather than fatty seeds and nuts. No one can argue that that's not better for them!

Unless I have a young, sick, underweight or molting pi, (in that case, they have sprouted food for breakfast to that I take out after a few hours. I increase the amounts of fat and protein as they need more energy.) I feed vegetables and fruit in the morning that they eat throughout the day as well as a small amount of pellets they have to work for. Around 5 pm, I feed them their sprouted seeds, beans and grain that I take out when they go to bed. I try and stay low on the protein and the only fat they have is in the small amount of safflower, sunflower and pieces of nuts I give them dayly for training purposes. (as pionus parrots are prown to gout and fatty liver disease.)

I feel like it's a shame and extreme to completely rule out pellets as the vets aprove them and we're not parrot nutritionists. The more variety, the better! except maybe for eclectus parrots. They seem to do better without them.

 

[clawnz]

Chip Chip.
First of all. I do not feed any pelleted food, nor any processed foods to my flock.

The article makes one very valid point some seem yo be missing. Pellets are designed to be 80% more of your basic diet, for any supplements will do any good.
If you are feeding pellets to cover anything, this means you need to be a high percentage pellet diet.

What I forgot to add:
Was that any supplements should only be added if your AV says and can show you the need.
Target that what is needed.
To ,e adding pellets on a maybe case is about as random as adding medications to their water.

And I am sure the time has passed where anybody would be feeding pellets at more than 25%. At least I hope so.
It does seem to be true that pellets only have a hold on USA market.
I have yet to see any independent evidence that says pellets are all the manufactures claim.

Do you not think, if it is true that we are seeing so many issues with Eclectus due to processed foods, that overtime you are going to see the same things in other birds?

The about what has been seen in the past and blamed on seeds. Is in some ways true, but also false. Bad diets are bad diets, no body is going to argue that. But lets address the supply of seed. From my own research when I first got into birds, was just how bad some seed mixes were. Lets say junk.
When you buy good quality fresh seed, it should sprout. I wonder how much in America would sprout. Or for that matter is there any that is unadulterated?
I now care for 4 Eclectus. The two adults were not in the best condition when I got them. Both were diet related issues, and Percy had other life issues that had taken it's toll.
I have watched both improve in condition over the last year. Vet check seems to confirm they are doing great.
Diet: Nothing other than sprouts (as per my sprouting thread), fruit, veg, AND seed. They do get other things depending what I can find.

I have 8 Cockatiels.
And Alex.
They all seem to be doing very well, without pellets.

 

[BeeBop]

Well, here is one interesting thing about pellets that made me change my mind. Look at the difference between synthetic vs natural vitamins! There is an obvious difference. And what does that mean? Our bodies (and parrot) don't recognize it as the same thing. Which means it is not the same as a natural vitamin! Natural vitamins are better. Sure you could argue there is not much of a biological difference but if it looks different how do you think our bodies treat it? Differently! I have not seen a pellet that has 100% natural vitamins. If there is, now I would be surprised and might consider it. (If it were also organic and no dyes, fillers, added things) And there is one more thing. Pellets are designed for everybody. That just doesn't work because nobody is exactly the same!

 

[BeeBop]

Take a look at this.

 

[LunaLovebird]

Well, here is one interesting thing about pellets that made me change my mind. Look at the difference between synthetic vs natural vitamins! There is an obvious difference. And what does that mean? Our bodies (and parrot) don't recognize it as the same thing. Which means it is not the same as a natural vitamin! Natural vitamins are better. Sure you could argue there is not much of a biological difference but if it looks different how do you think our bodies treat it? Differently! I have not seen a pellet that has 100% natural vitamins. If there is, now I would be surprised and might consider it. (If it were also organic and no dyes, fillers, added things) And there is one more thing. Pellets are designed for everybody. That just doesn't work because nobody is exactly the same!

That is simply not true. If you are comparing a vitamin from a plant and a vitamin from a lab, they are the same and have the same effect in their isolated forms. Vitamin C is ascorbic acid (they are literally just different names for the same thing), so I have no idea what is supposed to be meant by your image. I don't even know what it is supposed to be an image of.

 

[LunaLovebird]

Chip Chip.
First of all. I do not feed any pelleted food, nor any processed foods to my flock.

The article makes one very valid point some seem yo be missing. Pellets are designed to be 80% more of your basic diet, for any supplements will do any good.
If you are feeding pellets to cover anything, this means you need to be a high percentage pellet diet.

What I forgot to add:
Was that any supplements should only be added if your AV says and can show you the need.
Target that what is needed.
To ,e adding pellets on a maybe case is about as random as adding medications to their water.

And I am sure the time has passed where anybody would be feeding pellets at more than 25%. At least I hope so.
It does seem to be true that pellets only have a hold on USA market.
I have yet to see any independent evidence that says pellets are all the manufactures claim.

Do you not think, if it is true that we are seeing so many issues with Eclectus due to processed foods, that overtime you are going to see the same things in other birds?

The about what has been seen in the past and blamed on seeds. Is in some ways true, but also false. Bad diets are bad diets, no body is going to argue that. But lets address the supply of seed. From my own research when I first got into birds, was just how bad some seed mixes were. Lets say junk.
When you buy good quality fresh seed, it should sprout. I wonder how much in America would sprout. Or for that matter is there any that is unadulterated?
I now care for 4 Eclectus. The two adults were not in the best condition when I got them. Both were diet related issues, and Percy had other life issues that had taken it's toll.
I have watched both improve in condition over the last year. Vet check seems to confirm they are doing great.
Diet: Nothing other than sprouts (as per my sprouting thread), fruit, veg, AND seed. They do get other things depending what I can find.

I have 8 Cockatiels.
And Alex.
They all seem to be doing very well, without pellets.

IIRC, the main difference between Eclectus and other parrots is that they have longer digestive tracts, so high protein diets are more problematic for them. I believe it is also why pellets aren't so great for them compared to other species.

 

[BeeBop]

My image is supposed to show the obvious difference between the artificial vitamin and natural vitamin. The vitamins on the left are natural and the right is unnatural. If you look closely at the image it compares the two and how the artificial does not have the same properties.

 

[LunaLovebird]

My image is supposed to show the obvious difference between the artificial vitamin and natural vitamin. The vitamins on the left are natural and the right is unnatural. If you look closely at the image it compares the two and how the artificial does not have the same properties.

Okay, but that isn't what ascorbic acid / vitamin C looks like. It's probably useless probing this more, and this will be my last post on this, but I really can't figure out what those pictures are of (and I am very familiar with imaging techniques used for looking at molecules). They look like generic circles to me. Without knowing what they actually are, it's hard to criticise them properly. The article you linked that uses this image offers no explanation either.

 

[BeeBop]

Again, my image compares artificial vs natural vitamins.

See how you said ascorbic acid was the same as natural vitamin C? This picture is saying the opposite. Read the text in between the image and you will see what I mean.

 

[LunaLovebird]

Again, my image compares artificial vs natural vitamins.

See how you said ascorbic acid was the same as natural vitamin C? This picture is saying the opposite. Read the text in between the image and you will see what I mean.

Then the picture is both misleading and wrong. What I am stating - that ascorbic acid is vitamin C - is a trivial fact. Your picture is scientifically ambiguois and offers no meaningful information whatsoever as it is presented.

Last post, I swear.