Insightful article on pellets!

[Milo]

Pellets have been around for 11 yrs and I got my information from 3 different Drs. ...they wouldn't say for sure because necropsies normally cant be 100% for sure but they implied it in our conversations ...so yes I believe she died of only consuming pellets for all her life ...My birds are doing great their blood work tells me so ...their plumage ...their activity ...their stool...how they eat ...their whole way of life ....how do you tell if your bird is doing well ...and my birds don't eat an all seed diet ...I encourage you to read my post before you make statements....I consider a whole food life style a better option to pellets and that's what I feed my birds and so does a whole population of people you can find some of them here Log into Facebook | Facebook and they seem to maintain it quite well

I did read your post, I'm sorry that it seemed like I implied your birds ate only seeds, that was not the case. I meant that a bird can look outwardly healthy on an all seed diet for quite some time, and so an outwardly "healthy looking" appearance is not necessarily accurate. I did read that yours eat a varied diet, and I am glad that they appear to be doing well.

I, like you, assume that my birds are doing well using the factors you describe. What I am trying to say is that the choices we're making now, no matter how good they may seem to us, may have negative ramifications down the road. Am I saying that you should ditch your diet plan? Absolutely not. What I am saying is that looking at the science, the "why" of what we're doing is so important. We assume that because we're offering a variety of foods we perceive as healthy that our birds will also be healthy. This may or may not be the case, and we may not know it until our birds (hopefully) grow old.

I did specify a "modern" pelleted diet. Pellets have come a long way in 11 years, new research has been done and formulas have changed. I am very curious what a vet would see on a necropsy that would point them to pellets as the culprit. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but trying to understand.

 

[BeeBop]

Yep. I love that article. I'm also in the no-pellet group. I do. Feed TOPs but they aren't truly pellets because of no added vitamins. Because really they are over praised. Now I'm not going to be negative to anyone that does feed pellets. I have chose what works for me & my bird, makes sense and my beebop is healthy so what more can I say?

 

[Milo]

Yep. I love that article. I'm also in the no-pellet group. I do. Feed TOPs but they aren't truly pellets because of no added vitamins. Because really they are over praised. Glorified processed cereal. Now I'm not going to be negative to anyone that does feed pellets. I have chose what works for me & my bird, makes sense and my beebop is healthy so what more can I say?

But what resources have you used to confirm what this article says? They certainly haven't offered any sources for their claims. It's interesting that you think that you're not being negative to people that feed pellets after calling them "glorified processed cereal", that's about as condescending as it gets.

 

[BeeBop]

But what resources have you used to confirm what this article says? They certainly haven't offered any sources for their claims. It's interesting that you think that you're not being negative to people that feed pellets after calling them "glorified processed cereal", that's about as condescending as it gets.

I didn't mean to offend anybody. That was just my opinion on pellets I didn't want to push my opinion off on others. If you don't agree I'm fine with that. I'm sorry if I offened anyone. I will edit it. Is my stament completely backed up and proven? No. But are pellets completely backed up and proven? No. Not that simple.

 

[Mizzely]

Playing devil's advocate here for the pellet people. Found these with a quick search on PubMed. It's also worth noting that Harrison's, Lafeber, and Roudybush were originally developed by veterinarians. Again, we don't know everything but to say there are NO studies on parrots with pellets is wrong.

Nutritional levels of diets fed to captive Amazon parrots: does mixing seed, produce, and pellets provide a healthy diet? - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract
Poor nutrition is a serious problem in captive psittacine birds. Seed-based diets are known to contain excess fat, low calcium, phosphorus ratios, and other nutrient deficiencies, whereas many consider nutritionally superior, formulated diets to be monotonous. As a result, many bird owners feed a mixture of seed, produce, and formulated diet. However, the nutritional contents of such mixed diets have rarely been evaluated. In this study, we describe the nutrient contents of diets consumed by 7 adult (>6 years old), captive Amazon parrots offered produce (50% fresh weight), formulated diet (25%), and seed (25%). Diets consumed were deficient in calcium, sodium, and iron and contained more than the recommended amount of fat. In addition, the birds chose foods that exacerbated these imbalances. Birds offered low-seed diets (60% pellet, 22% produce, 18% seed, wet weight) consumed diets with more fat than recommended but acceptable levels of calcium and all other nutrients measured, as well as acceptable calcium, phosphorus ratios. This suggests that small quantities of seeds may not result in nutritionally imbalanced diets. Birds fed 75% formulated diet and 25% produce consumed diets within the recommendations for nearly all measured nutrients, demonstrating that owners of psittacine birds should be encouraged to supplement manufactured diets with low energy-density, fresh produce items to provide stimulation and foraging opportunities without fear of causing major nutritional imbalances.


Estimated nutrient content of diets commonly fed to pet birds. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
The owners of 135 pet birds were surveyed by questionnaire to determine their birds' weekly food consumption. The birds were divided into six food groups on the basis of the amounts of seeds, formulated products and human food they consumed. The formulated products and seeds were analysed for their nutrient content by two independent laboratories, the nutrient content of the human foods was obtained from a standard nutrition reference, and each bird's nutrient intake was estimated. The dietary content of individual nutrients was then compared with the estimated maintenance requirements for pet birds. Birds consuming less than approximately 50 per cent of their diets as formulated products had inadequate intakes of vitamins A and D3, and calcium. Diets high in human food were low in protein, energy, vitamins and minerals. Diets high in seed were excessive in fat and deficient in vitamins A and D3, and calcium.

 

[Milo]

I didn't mean to offend anybody. That was just my opinion on pellets I didn't want to push my opinion off on others. If you don't agree I'm fine with that. I'm sorry if I offened anyone. I will edit it. Is my stament completely backed up and proven? No. But are pellets completely backed up and proven? No. Not that simple.

There are studies out there proving the efficacy of pelleted diets in providing nutrition for pellets. (several posts in this thread have demonstrated that) It's all well and good to have an opinion, but you're supporting an article that accuses pellets of being sub par with absolutely nothing to back it up. I absolutely welcome discussion, but there has to be a point at which science matters.

 

[Jaguar]

Playing devil's advocate here for the pellet people. Found these with a quick search on PubMed. It's also worth noting that Harrison's, Lafeber, and Roudybush were originally developed by veterinarians. Again, we don't know everything but to say there are NO studies on parrots with pellets is wrong.

Nutritional levels of diets fed to captive Amazon parrots: does mixing seed, produce, and pellets provide a healthy diet? - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract
Poor nutrition is a serious problem in captive psittacine birds. Seed-based diets are known to contain excess fat, low calcium, phosphorus ratios, and other nutrient deficiencies, whereas many consider nutritionally superior, formulated diets to be monotonous. As a result, many bird owners feed a mixture of seed, produce, and formulated diet. However, the nutritional contents of such mixed diets have rarely been evaluated. In this study, we describe the nutrient contents of diets consumed by 7 adult (>6 years old), captive Amazon parrots offered produce (50% fresh weight), formulated diet (25%), and seed (25%). Diets consumed were deficient in calcium, sodium, and iron and contained more than the recommended amount of fat. In addition, the birds chose foods that exacerbated these imbalances. Birds offered low-seed diets (60% pellet, 22% produce, 18% seed, wet weight) consumed diets with more fat than recommended but acceptable levels of calcium and all other nutrients measured, as well as acceptable calcium, phosphorus ratios. This suggests that small quantities of seeds may not result in nutritionally imbalanced diets. Birds fed 75% formulated diet and 25% produce consumed diets within the recommendations for nearly all measured nutrients, demonstrating that owners of psittacine birds should be encouraged to supplement manufactured diets with low energy-density, fresh produce items to provide stimulation and foraging opportunities without fear of causing major nutritional imbalances.


Estimated nutrient content of diets commonly fed to pet birds. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
The owners of 135 pet birds were surveyed by questionnaire to determine their birds' weekly food consumption. The birds were divided into six food groups on the basis of the amounts of seeds, formulated products and human food they consumed. The formulated products and seeds were analysed for their nutrient content by two independent laboratories, the nutrient content of the human foods was obtained from a standard nutrition reference, and each bird's nutrient intake was estimated. The dietary content of individual nutrients was then compared with the estimated maintenance requirements for pet birds. Birds consuming less than approximately 50 per cent of their diets as formulated products had inadequate intakes of vitamins A and D3, and calcium. Diets high in human food were low in protein, energy, vitamins and minerals. Diets high in seed were excessive in fat and deficient in vitamins A and D3, and calcium.

Here's the full paper for that second link:

http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/hess.pdf

There's another study where cockatiels were fed a diet of something like 70% protein for 11 months and observed no liver damage - I always found that interesting, since it directly contradicts what a lot of people on here say about pellets.

 

[Mizzely]

Here's the full paper for that second link:

http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/hess.pdf

There's another study where cockatiels were fed a diet of something like 70% protein for 11 months and observed no liver damage - I always found that interesting, since it directly contradicts what a lot of people on here say about pellets.

Thanks for the link! I do remember hearing about that study also!

 

[janicedyh]

I didn't mean to offend anybody. That was just my opinion on pellets I didn't want to push my opinion off on others. If you don't agree I'm fine with that. I'm sorry if I offened anyone. I will edit it. Is my stament completely backed up and proven? No. But are pellets completely backed up and proven? No. Not that simple.

I'm sure you didn't mean to open up a hornets nest of opinions. I only took it as info being shared...I can agree, disagree, do further research etc....whatever I please with what you shared. There are camps of strictly no pellets, some pellets, all fresh, fresh and cooked. If anyone feels they have it down pat...I bow down to your glory. The thing is, we are all learning, even if someone has had a parrot for 25 years. I know I have learned a ton over the last 8 months. I have had smaller birds and really thought I did a great job, I did do a great job for what I knew...and for what little info was really out there. In the age of technology we can now just pull up whatever we want to know in an instant. In fact doing just that made me realize that even though not one of my birds were EVER ill they probably would have lived longer if I had all of this shared info at my fingertips. I just went with the old school...this is how you take care of birds. The pellet issue is one I have been looking into since Dobey came into my life. Eclectus are surely one of the more difficult diets to deal with. I first proclaimed...NO PELLETS because of the toe tapping and wing flipping it commonly causes. After talking to my vet he suggested I at least give him a few daily. I got Harrisons Course. I gave him 3 per day and made each one into 2 pieces to place under cups as a game. No problem...all were happy. Dobey is heavily molting right now so it was suggested I up the pellets to 9. I did....and here came the toe tapping and wing flipping. I would implore people to realize that knowledge comes at a pace differently to each individual and implemented according to individual needs. Certainly if someone has a macaw or a 2, their diet will be a lot different than an Eclectus. I certainly see no laziness in using a quality organic pellet to supplement or enhance. Thanks for posting the article. Keep posting articles and research about our feathered companions. Some of it may not ring true....but isn't that what our brains are for...to figure it out?

 

[Tyrion]

I did read your post, I'm sorry that it seemed like I implied your birds ate only seeds, that was not the case. I meant that a bird can look outwardly healthy on an all seed diet for quite some time, and so an outwardly "healthy looking" appearance is not necessarily accurate. I did read that yours eat a varied diet, and I am glad that they appear to be doing well.

I, like you, assume that my birds are doing well using the factors you describe. What I am trying to say is that the choices we're making now, no matter how good they may seem to us, may have negative ramifications down the road. Am I saying that you should ditch your diet plan? Absolutely not. What I am saying is that looking at the science, the "why" of what we're doing is so important. We assume that because we're offering a variety of foods we perceive as healthy that our birds will also be healthy. This may or may not be the case, and we may not know it until our birds (hopefully) grow old.

I did specify a "modern" pelleted diet. Pellets have come a long way in 11 years, new research has been done and formulas have changed. I am very curious what a vet would see on a necropsy that would point them to pellets as the culprit. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but trying to understand.

A bird can look outwardly healthy on an all pelleted diet as well ...Pellets are not the be all and end all of parrot nutrition no one knows what they do over time to the birds that eat them exclusively ...raw whole foods have been proven time over time to be the one thing that every one agrees on that parrots need ...so why add something that isn't what they would eat in the wild ...not that I'm saying I feed my flock what they eat in the wild but its far closer then a lil pellet ....I am looking at the science of it and the "why" ....why would I feed my parrots something that has a bunch of stuff mashed together then has all the nutrients cooked out of it to the point of being carcinogenetic after its all said and done ...given the choice most parrots wouldn't eat pellets over raw whole foods ....I know you said a "modern" pellet what ever that means ..pellets haven't changed very much over the years most still have peanuts in them ...which says allot to me ...all I know is Loki died and she ate pellets her whole life exclusively ..I have made the decision not to feed my flock pellets since I lost her and did research ...there are allot of people who don't feed pellets and I find its a unwinnable argument ...pellet people wont change and people who feed raw whole foods exclusively wont change

 

[Mizzely]

I love the IDEA behind whole food diets for parrots. I just haven't seen any evidence that it's actually the best for them. Anyone with links to scientific articles discussing pellets being carcinogens, best for birds, etc, please, please share! That's how we all learn. That's how you change minds. If I was given fact based research that shows it's better than pellets, I'd switch. Why wouldn't I?

 

[Mizzely]

Also remember that no one here recommends feeding pellets exclusively. I imagine that would be hard on a bird's body because they are dry. Same with feeding cats all dry food. Most of us are all about the almighty Balance.

 

[Milo]

...there are allot of people who don't feed pellets and I find its a unwinnable argument ...pellet people wont change and people who feed raw whole foods exclusively wont change

It's very unfortunate that you feel that way. I think there's a lot that the camps can learn from each other through continued discussion and research. I am interested to read your sources for your information, to learn from what you have learned. What I take issue with is articles like the one the OP posted that put forth opinion as fact and has nothing to back it up.

I'm trying to tell you that I agree with you, that the only thing we know is that we don't know everything. However, I know that there is research that also says that pellets help parrots maintain proper nutrition. Calling them carcinogenic is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Milo]

Also remember that no one here recommends feeding pellets exclusively. I imagine that would be hard on a bird's body because they are dry. Same with feeding cats all dry food. Most of us are all about the almighty Balance.

Precisely this. I haven't met a vet yet that recommends a pet bird be fed a diet consisting exclusively of pellets.

 

[Big Badeepie]

I personally believe that variety is key, not only for physical health but also for mental health. I mean, how would a person feel having the same kind of stuff all the time after all? I do special blend my flock's foods, Lucia and Yamato have their own blend as do Nero, Virg, and Mango then Cassie has her own blend since they all have different needs. Granted some of it is guess work due to lack of solid studies but I'm doing the best I can and get semi-yearly blood tests done on my babies to check their nutrient levels. I also feed a variety of fresh fruits and veggies as well which, thankfully, almost everybirdy loves (Yamato and his broccoli, he's addicted to it) along with the occasional hard boiled egg white to help protein levels since that has been an issue in the past for some of my babies.

But, in the end, it's all guess work. I wish we knew exactly what they need for a lower activity lifestyle to avoid giving them too much or too little of certain thing but, for now, all we can really do is try different things and see where their nutrient levels are then adjust accordingly. My main worry with pellets is quality and safety measures to make sure nothing dangerous ends up in them. There have been some bad contamination issues with pellets in the past so I only feed pellets from brands that are open about where their ingredients come from and who have good quality control. I kinda look at pellets the same way I look at human multivitamins, helpful to have but all things in moderation.

 

[Jaguar]

I love the IDEA behind whole food diets for parrots. I just haven't seen any evidence that it's actually the best for them. Anyone with links to scientific articles discussing pellets being carcinogens, best for birds, etc, please, please share! That's how we all learn. That's how you change minds. If I was given fact based research that shows it's better than pellets, I'd switch. Why wouldn't I?

I haven't even seen any precisely formulated whole food/raw diets for parrots. I'd love to see one, not just be continuously redirected to quacks on Facebook selling herbal supplements and teas for parrots.

And that's because making a complete diet is beyond difficult - not only are parrots' nutritional needs poorly understood, it takes an insane amount of knowledge and understanding of the intricacies of nutrition. There's so much more to it than throwing as much variety as you can in a bowl and hoping for the best. I came from the rat community, where people largely felt the same - lab blocks (rat pellets) are unnatural, carcinogenic, inferior, and so on. Yet no one there was able to come up with a raw diet, either - a well respected breeder really tried, but concluded that it's next to impossible for an enthusiast. Unfortunately, I don't think the pet food industry (corrected) is overly motivated to come up with a diet that can't be sold.

I would love to feed a more "natural" or raw/whole diet, but I simply don't know enough about my boys' specific dietary needs. I also don't trust pellets to fulfill them, either, especially when they're based on studies for a completely different animal. I still think they're the best option we have for covering as many bases as possible. And that's why I feed them - but in moderation, yes.

 

[Pipsqueak]

What do call those of us who prepare fresh foods and cook fresh foods for our birds, as well as feed pellets - are we lazy too?

No, not at all but you see a lot of pets never fed with anything fresh.

 

[Big Badeepie]

Indeed, I've done a lot of studying on nutrition in general but it's mostly human nutrition that the info is available for and that doesn't transfer properly to parrots sadly. I would really, really love to see more scientists and vets researching parrot nutrition. The blends I make include dried fruits and veggies, specific seed types (since some seeds are better than others) and certain pellet formulations. I also take into account what each group of birds likes and what their blood tests showed they needed. It's a massive balancing act and it does take a lot of time. I just hope I'm on the right track with it all.

 

[Milo]

I think you're confusing the veterinary community with the pet food industry. The veterinary community has every reason to develop a better diet (Lafeber comes to mind) because, and I can't believe I have to say this, their entire basis for being is TO HELP ANIMALS.

OF COURSE the veterinary community wants animals to have balanced nutrition and to have long, healthy lives. If every exam were purely wellness it would be boring and wonderful. Caring is the entire reason there are studies surrounding the nutritional needs across species. If they were only interested in what they could sell you they'd stick with seed and be done with it. Without veterinary professionals doing their best for pets we would be even more in the dark then we are now.

 

[Mizzely]

I think you're confusing the veterinary community with the pet food industry. The veterinary community has every reason to develop a better diet (Lafeber comes to mind) because, and I can't believe I have to say this, their entire basis for being is TO HELP ANIMALS.

OF COURSE the veterinary community wants animals to have balanced nutrition and to have long, healthy lives. If every exam were purely wellness it would be boring and wonderful. Caring is the entire reason there are studies surrounding the nutritional needs across species. If they were only interested in what they could sell you they'd stick with seed and be done with it. Without veterinary professionals doing their best for pets we would be even more in the dark then we are now.

Exactly. My vet makes no money off of what my birds eat, regardless if it's pellets, vegetables, or seeds. They don't want to see birds die due to preventable reasons like diet. That's why there are more vets cropping up that are trying to better understand parrot diets, because it makes their job easier.