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Insightful article on pellets!

jmfleish

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Wow, this thread took quite the turn since yesterday when I tried to read the article! LOL! I'm not even going to bother finishing the article because I agree with a few of the first posters...it's biased and BS. I hate diet threads because I think there is just too much we don't know. I've had parrots for 14 years now and I have a variety of species too. I've gone from feeding all fresh foods to feeding almost extensively pellets, I also have chickens and man do those people put their foot down on diet!:) I've done the research and what I've learned is that our parrots are a bit different but more the same than different and that we will never know what they eat in the wild and that it doesn't really matter what they eat in the wild because the parrots we are looking out for shouldn't eat what their wild counterparts eat. I do think there's a big difference between the smaller species and the larger species and that seed is needed in the smaller species, especially if the smaller species were used to eating seed in the wild, such as a lot of the smaller Australian species.

I have Linnies, they get a mix of Roudybush and small parrot Goldenfeast as well as some mash just about every day. I have Ekkies, I'm trying to give them mash of some sort, mostly raw, every single day but they also have access to Roudybush every single day. I have Amazons, Galahs, a single smaller D2, greys in their 20s, they all have pellets avialable to them 24/7 and they get mash most days. Sometimes I don't offer it to all of them because they don't all like certain things. This last weekend I made a mash with beans and rice in it and fresh veggies and a few fruits and some palm oil. My two Rosies, Kishka and Fozzie go absolutely crazy for it and have it all over their beaks and faces. The Amazons could care less and some of the greys hate it. If I do just raw veggies like I normally do, Kishka and Fozzie are less interested but my Amazons and greys like it more. They ALWAYS have pellets! ALWAYS!

The thing about pellets that I cannot get away from is that they have the stuff in them that is fairly complete that I can't guarantee I have in every mash diet I serve them and I don't know what they're pulling out of the fresh food I make for them from week to week. Each one of my birds is such an individual and I can chop that stuff as small as possible but can't guarantee that every single one of my birds is going to eat every single thing I put in it. I'm not a nutritionist either. I can't feed myself, much less know what my birds need. I think most people are like that, no matter how much they know about food and forget supplements. I think the majority of us on this forum are smart enough to tell you that you do not supplement unless your vet tells you to! And you don't put it in your bird's water, that's the worst way to do it. That's where the fortified pellet comes in. That's your supplement! That's what puts the mash together as a full diet! And if I have a crazy day where I just can't feed mash...well, it isn't going to kill my birds to just get pellets that day but I do really try not to do that to my Ekkie boys because of their physical body composition and the simple fact that they do pick those synthetic vitamins so much easier than the rest of the birds do and it makes them do weird things like toe tapping and wing flipping.

I think that pellets do have an important role to play in every one of my bird's diets. That's just me but give it a thought. My oldest bird is Clancy CAG and he will be 25 in September. I worry about him a lot. Greys are notorious for dying of heart related issues in their 30s and 40s and I'd like to keep him around as long as I can. I'd like to keep them all around as long as I can and of course diet is a huge part of that. I have two other greys who are in their 20s or entering their 20s. All my Amazons are entering their teens or are in their teens. Diet, diet, diet...it's never far from your mind!:)
 

BeeBop

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Then the picture is both misleading and wrong. What I am stating - that ascorbic acid is vitamin C - is a trivial fact. Your picture is scientifically ambiguois and offers no meaningful information whatsoever as it is presented.

Last post, I swear.
I am sorry but I don't understand what point you are trying to make by saying my picture is scientifically inaccurate. I'm not saying that I'm right or that you are wrong, but if you could better explain to me your argument I would be happy to hear.
 

Milo

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I am sorry but I don't understand what point you are trying to make by saying my picture is scientifically inaccurate. I'm not saying that I'm right or that you are wrong, but if you could better explain to me your argument I would be happy to hear.
She is saying that based on her scientific experience the pictures do not represent what the article is saying they represent. (correct me if I'm wrong @LunaLovebird )
 

EkkieLuv

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Well.

I certainly did not intend to incite a riot. This article had been shared in an ekkie group and I thought it gave some perspectives that weren't always brought up in the pellet/no-pellet argument. I had a super busy day yesterday so just now getting to read through everybody's thoughts. And have no desire to argue. I think everyone should educate themselves, listen to a GOOD avian vet and make their own decision for the health of their flock.

Somebody asked what supplements I give (or perhaps the question was aimed at someone else) but I do not give supplements. I don't think it's wise to guess at what supplements a particular bird might need so wouldn't put a vitamin powder or any specific thing on their food. If bloodwork and vet expertise acknowledged a need for something specific then that would be a separate issue. Even when Peanut was dealing with his mystery illness, our vet said no pellets... that our diet had always been excellent and she didn't have any reason to think his problem was nutritional. But anyway....

It was brought up a few times that ekkie diets are different - and that they are. My brain is conditioned to think Eclectus when considering diet. When Peanut 1st came to live with us - I'll emphasize he was a stray of unknown age or history - I knew ZERO about ekkies so dove head first into researching them. I also joined a long-standing ekkie only listserv with many people who had successfully fed ekkies for much longer than most. Pellets for ekkies often cause problems so we do everything we can to give them what they need without them. I'll add that from what I have understood, it is the synthetic additives - colors as well as vitamins - that seem to lead to the toe tapping and wing flipping. There are some so sensitive out there that even a fortified pasta, for example, can cause problems.

So we've provided the least processed, least artificially enhanced diet that we can here at our house. It likely isn't perfect but I simply don't believe there IS a perfect solution. We've brought inherently wild animals to domestic lives - often times different parts of the world, different climates, different everything than what nature intended for them to have. So we do the best we can if we're responsible about it. My thoughts behind the article - and in sharing it - were not about the supplements, but about just looking at pellets and the fact that they are highly processed and that most are synthetically fortified - and yes, boring. LOL. Don't take that the wrong way, people! I think food should be part of their enrichment as well... but I'm a foodie, myself. ;) Many (certainly not all) are also corn-based, which can be a common allergen and lead to feather picking, etc., not to mention it's becoming increasingly hard to find no-GMO corn these days and that's a whole other topic. I am not a chemicalphobe (or whatever the term someone used was) but neither do I agree that synthetic vitamins is necessarily a good idea (there are certainly exceptions when there are underlying health problems). I firmly believe that given a varied diet of whole foods that contain a body's needed essentials is the way God intended it and that bodies are designed to extract and utilize those things from good, whole food. That is just my opinion on the matter! As a human, I've never taken vitamins, have always fortunately been healthy, my bloodwork is perfect - but I eat healthy, too. I'm not a parrot but I believe the basic biology of sustaining healthy life applies across species. :)

From what I've read and heard from so many keepers of various species is that, for many, pellets do not cause problems when offered as part of a diet that includes other healthy foods. Again, for ekkies, they just don't work as well even though there are some out there that do fine eating them.

Lastly, as again I'm not interested in arguing or casting judgement... a little story about Tigger, our 2nd ekkie. He was kept by a questionable breeder of the backyard type who we rescued him from, in all reality. He was headed for the flea market because he wasn't interested in a mate or breeding for her. She sent us home with a ziplock full of seed mix with some kind of colored pellet in it. That's what he'd always been offered. He didn't like fresh food, she said. Well, being thoughtful of the fact that he didn't know what real food was, I decided to continue to offer that horrid mix as I introduced him to what Peanut got, which was fresh, greens/veg/fruit/etc. I will say that I was only a little surprised that he didn't come out of that bowl until it was gone. He never again even looked at the bowl of seed/pellet mix. I think their instincts say something and that given the choice, they'll eat what their body needs. **Though I know plenty well that there are too many out there who lived on seeds and whatnot for so long that they take years to accept real/whole/fresh foods - or even pellets.

You guys all be nice to each other!! It's easy to misinterpret "tone" and "intent" in the typed word... we can have differing opinions and still be kind. It goes without saying that all of us who take the time to even BE HERE on AA have the best of hearts and desire to give our fids the most out of life that we can! As many have said, it's an evolving situation - and should be as more knowledge is discovered about our parrots!
:hug8:
 

Mizzely

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I am sorry but I don't understand what point you are trying to make by saying my picture is scientifically inaccurate. I'm not saying that I'm right or that you are wrong, but if you could better explain to me your argument I would be happy to hear.

What is it depicting? A cross section of a cell? An atom? What are the things on the side? How is this proof that asorbic acid (isolated vitamin c) is handled differently by the body than vitamin c found in an orange for example? We're wondering what we're seeing exactly and how it correlates to the argument because the picture isn't doing that. A link to the article you found it in, perhaps?
 

EkkieLuv

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I am sorry but I don't understand what point you are trying to make by saying my picture is scientifically inaccurate. I'm not saying that I'm right or that you are wrong, but if you could better explain to me your argument I would be happy to hear.
I think, perhaps, she was asking what, specifically, are the pictures of... it's unclear what you're looking at aside from the text there. What, actually, are the pictures showing, physically? A cross section of something? A molecule? A stain on a slide? Does that make sense? I'm curious as well :)
 

BeeBop

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Everyone I want to apologize for being naive. I thought I was giving a reasonable resource but now that it's been explained to me in greater detail I understand why it's not so great of a resource. And I am sorry I used an uncreditable resource to base my argument off of. So I hope that clears things up ;)
That said there are other reasons to not use pellets besides that but we could argue on that all day and I think everyone has said what needs to be said. :)
 

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I'm impressed with the thoughtfulness and intelligence included in all of the posts in this thread. Gee whiz we have some smart and eloquent people on this forum. I'm also impressed that we can discuss and present our individual beliefs, feelings, research without being at each other's throats.

For me, I'm a science wonk and will always take proven research (Lafeber, Harrison, Roudybush and Echols veterinarians and therefore scientists) over opinion and anecdotal "evidence".

I believe it was Lafeber (correct me If I'm wrong) who conducted a study at University of California at Davis Vet School on a number of Amazon parrots that were fed nothing except pellets for many years. The health and mortality of these Amazons did not differ from the control group in the general population. I can't find this study any longer, but if someone has it I would appreciate their posting it.

It's good that everyone isn't as wonky as I am.

 

LunaLovebird

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I think, perhaps, she was asking what, specifically, are the pictures of... it's unclear what you're looking at aside from the text there. What, actually, are the pictures showing, physically? A cross section of something? A molecule? A stain on a slide? Does that make sense? I'm curious as well :)
Just to wrap this little side tangent up, I discovered it was a badly done chromatogram after some research. Basically a solution of something droppered onto filter paper. That being the case, the sample has been dyed or the image manipulated to get the contrast and colours shown. In any event, that sort of assay doesn't really tell you anything, and certainly not what the image was saying it did. There was no information given by the original source on the details of the experiment, nor was their any rational reason given to explain why the images say what they are claiming they say.

No harm done, anyway. :) My language tends to be more formal as a consequence of my work, so my curiosity sometimes comes across as aggressiveness or hostility. I'm very much an attack the ideas and not the poster kind of person, and I don't think I crossed that line, though I apologise if that's how it came across.

Sorry to hijack your thread, @EkkieLuv I still think that formulated diets are by and large an incredibly useful and necessary tool for many parrot owners, just because of specific bird related eating quirks, or because of the risk of infection from leaving fresh food out all day. I think we all agree so far that only pellets probably isn't great, besides being plain boring for the birds. Here's to more research!
 
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jmfleish

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I do agree that Ekkies are a whole different animal with a different digestive system. Greys are kind of different too in they seem to absorb calcium differently which causes calcium problems and seizures in some but not others. Amazons are really known for their easy ways to perch potatoes and big old fatsos if you don't watch it. I definitely think each species is a little, and sometimes a lot different. Those Hys and some of the other Macaws have a need for a much higher fat content.

I think we learn as we go for sure and I don't think that learning ever stops if you really want to try to do what's best. I had a discussion with one of the current vets at the UW and he actually admitted that he just doesn't know a whole lot about nutrition because he's not a nutritionist, he's a vet. He spent years learning how to know what to look for and how to treat sick animals, not so much in how to feed a good diet to animals. He knows the minimal requirements on kind of what they need and we then get back to that whole mystery of the fact that we just don't know what they eat in the wild again.

I think that discussions like the are helpful to see what other people are doing and what works for others. I saw something a year or two ago from Jean Pattison who has been raising some of the most amazing African birds for decades now. Her mother got sick and she had to leave her husband in charge of her birds for quite a while...I want to say a year. She had always fed almost exclusively a mash type diet to her birds but her husband was totally overwhelmed and they got pellets while she was away and they started breeding better for her and were actually healthier when she got back and she has now switched her diet. I'll see if I can find the article. It was interesting coming from a breeder.
 

jmfleish

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Here's that article by Jean Pattison. I just read it through again and it's interesting that a lot of chicken aficionados feel the same way or are even more hardcore about it because they worry so much about chickens getting fatty liver and such...they are incredibly strict about a nearly all pellet diet with few fresh veggies and fruits thrown in as treats only and tell you to be very, very careful about how many treats you offer. Just thought I'd mention that since our pellets were developed from decades of research from chicken pellets and there was a LOT of research done on chicken pellets!:)

African Queen Aviaries
 

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I think you're confusing the veterinary community with the pet food industry. The veterinary community has every reason to develop a better diet (Lafeber comes to mind) because, and I can't believe I have to say this, their entire basis for being is TO HELP ANIMALS.

OF COURSE the veterinary community wants animals to have balanced nutrition and to have long, healthy lives. If every exam were purely wellness it would be boring and wonderful. Caring is the entire reason there are studies surrounding the nutritional needs across species. If they were only interested in what they could sell you they'd stick with seed and be done with it. Without veterinary professionals doing their best for pets we would be even more in the dark then we are now.
Also dont forget the kickbacks they get for selling the pellets on their shelves ...how do I know this maybe the 15 yrs in the vet industry ...yes they may want to help our pets with nutrition but in the end its all about money for some of them ....some to most know nothing about nutrition because they never studied it in vet school ...again how do I know vet industry ...they have seminars now that vets go to about nutrition by people like Dr. Jason Crean who has given his life for nutrition for our parrots ...I would try his advice over any vet ...most vets are doing their best and without them we would be poorer for it but they arent the be all in nutrition either ...and yes there are carcinogens in your pellets ..there are carcinogens in allot of food you just dont know it :)
 

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Also dont forget the kickbacks they get for selling the pellets on their shelves ...how do I know this maybe the 15 yrs in the vet industry ...yes they may want to help our pets with nutrition but in the end its all about money for some of them ....some to most know nothing about nutrition because they never studied it in vet school ...again how do I know vet industry ...they have seminars now that vets go to about nutrition by people like Dr. Jason Crean who has given his life for nutrition for our parrots ...I would try his advice over any vet ...most vets are doing their best and without them we would be poorer for it but they arent the be all in nutrition either ...and yes there are carcinogens in your pellets ..there are carcinogens in allot of food you just dont know it :)

I've never bought food from a vet. I've never had a vet try to change my pet's diet to something they carry. You are correct that many vets don't have a lot of nutritional training, and I also don't think you need to be a vet to be an except in nutrition. But that being said, some vets have made it their priority to be experts in nutrition, and some so called experts don't back up their claims.

Can you please provide sources about the carcinogens? I would like to read them so I can understand more.
 

jmfleish

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Here's an article from Liz Wilson who passed away a few years ago. I really miss her wit and her articles are hard to find. I think a lot of the newer parrot owners probably didn't have a chance to get to know her. She was always pretty straight forward. I'm trying to find a funny article she wrote about how parrots tend to NOT eat what we give them and we find the remnants months later behind the furniture!:) She was a funny lady!

What CAN I Feed My Parrot? - PART 1
 

javi

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I think the one thing that can be agreed upon is that no one diet is complete and variety is needed. I feed pellets, sprouts and veggies daily. I feed some seed on weekends and add fruits, nuts, cereal on random days. I also add cooked diets as I make them and other foods at random. I will never say that how I feed is the best for everyone but works for me and my flock. I do know that daily seeds are not going to work for me as my birds pick what they like and leave the extra and I am not a fan of seed hulls. I have kept birds for over 20 years and have heard every fad and this is what I feel comfortable feeding. That being said my birds are not picky and will eat just about any new food
 

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This paper talks about Chemical Dyes and its cancer causing agents Chemical Dyes and Our Birds’ Health ....some pellets have these carcinogenic chemicals in them check your labels Parrots' Health - Organic Bird Food , Organic Pellets and Artificial Vitamins ....here is a list of almost every thing that is in pellets the good to the bad and comments Parrots' Health - Organic Bird Food , Organic Pellets and Artificial Vitamins again check your labels ...These are just a few I looked up on google :)


I've never bought food from a vet. I've never had a vet try to change my pet's diet to something they carry. You are correct that many vets don't have a lot of nutritional training, and I also don't think you need to be a vet to be an except in nutrition. But that being said, some vets have made it their priority to be experts in nutrition, and some so called experts don't back up their claims.

Can you please provide sources about the carcinogens? I would like to read them so I can understand more.
 

Tim

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This paper talks about Chemical Dyes and its cancer causing agents Chemical Dyes and Our Birds’ Health ....some pellets have these carcinogenic chemicals in them check your labels Parrots' Health - Organic Bird Food , Organic Pellets and Artificial Vitamins ....here is a list of almost every thing that is in pellets the good to the bad and comments Parrots' Health - Organic Bird Food , Organic Pellets and Artificial Vitamins again check your labels ...These are just a few I looked up on google :)
Article #1 is a 17-year-old opinion piece.
Article 2 and 3 are undated, non-scientific, non-peer reviewed magazine articles.
These are not "papers", and are not sourced, footnoted or peer-reviewed.
Basing a diet on an opinion, feeling or belief is certainly anyone's prerogative, but it is not scientific. I've never seen a bird of any type drink tea in the wild.
As for me, I'm in the camp of variety; lots of fresh food, cooked grains and legumes, healthy nuts and seeds and a mix of pellets. My chop mix includes healthy fats like RPO and flaxseed oil. A little scrambled egg cooked in coconut oil 1-2 times per week when they're molting for extra protein.
 

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Article #1 is a 17-year-old opinion piece.
Article 2 and 3 are undated, non-scientific, non-peer reviewed magazine articles.
These are not "papers", and are not sourced, footnoted or peer-reviewed.
Basing a diet on an opinion, feeling or belief is certainly anyone's prerogative, but it is not scientific. I've never seen a bird of any type drink tea in the wild.
As for me, I'm in the camp of variety; lots of fresh food, cooked grains and legumes, healthy nuts and seeds and a mix of pellets. My chop mix includes healthy fats like RPO and flaxseed oil. A little scrambled egg cooked in coconut oil 1-2 times per week when they're molting for extra protein.
I do all of that just no pellets ..and Im sorry you didnt like the things I quoted ..and yes they do drink tea in the wild ..what do you think they drink bottled water ..they drink water with leaves ..flowers..minerals...twigs...herbs...ect ..they even take baths in it ...Im sorry but that is what tea is made of ..have you looked on the labels of said teas ...you guys are so close minded sometimes...tea is tea whether its in the wild or in a package ....take a look Greywood Manor Tea & Provisions, Animals, Tea, Herbal ...they have things like *Hibiscus, *Green Tea (decaf), *Echinacea, *Rose Hips, *Elderberry, *Tulsi Leaves, *Jasmine Flowers, *Oregano ...in their tea ...if you dont want to give it dont but dont discount those that do ... :)
 

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Asking for information is the opposite of close minded. I'm very open minded and love to learn! But I also know how to determine if a source is a able to hold up it's claims. That's not being close minded, that's just not accepting facts as face value because it's on the internet and sounds reasonable. We're not discounting, we're hoping to have a conversation to better understand.
 
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