Do you ever feel guilty about aviculture?

[jmfleish]

Ferrets are domesticated, have been for a long, long, long time. I don't know where you get your information, but it's wrong. All responsible breeders do breed for temperament, they do not breed violent animals. Breeding for temperament has nothing to do with hybridization, it is selecting the animals with the best traits to produce the best offspring. And I'll tell you something, it's bloody hard to type with a bird who insists on standing on the keyboard!

I stand corrected, you are right, the ferret has been domesticated...thousands of years of selective breeding. This, of course, is not true of parrots who may be two, possibly three generations away from the wild. We're still dealing with most breeding pairs being wild caught in this country.

As for breeding for temperment in parrots, this is also not true. Too often, when someone has a problemed bird, the first thing someone will think about is to pair it up for breeding. I also believe that hybridization may have the potential to give us a parrot better suited for our home but that's just my personal opinion. I think that we have to be more open to the possibility of what we are breeding for in parrots...right now, very few people breed for anything more than color.

 

[jmfleish]

I want to comment on how many people are saying that parrots need to breed to feel fulfilled. I'm wondering what makes you guys so sure of that? I know that's a common argument with dogs to have at least one litter (which obviously many dogs absolutely shouldn't be bred, there is already an overpopulation of dogs, it would be totally out of control if every dog got to breed). Though a dog can live its entire life completely happily never reproducing. A female in heat or a male that is in the vicinity of a female in heat may feel hormonal responses that trigger their instinct to breed, but it's not an emotional desire to have puppies similar to how a human has the desire or social expectations to have children and start a family. I'm wondering if those saying that parrots need to breed in order to feel fulfilled are anthropomorphizing? Can a parrot live a happy fulfilled life without mating?

ETA: I also want to mention on the subject of altering animals, I've done quite a bit of research, and surgically altering an animal doesn't have any effect on the animals personality. The only thing that it will effect are obviously their ability to reproduce, and if the animal is altered to early, it can have a negative effect on the hormones that control their growth.

I agree with you Nargle...while it may be instinct to breed, I don't think it is necessary for happiness. One would hope that there's more to life than sex! I think that's why it's so important that we give them plenty of things to do though. I absolutely do not think a parrot has to be paired up to live a fulfilling life.

 

[shellbeme]

YES! And it was something I didn't understand until the past year or so. Chico should not be a pet (in my opinion). I never felt this way with my cockatiels but I do with large parrots, I feel like they should be in the wild, not in our homes.

I want to clarify guys, this is just my opinion, I don't look down on any of us for having large parrot, and I don't want MY opinion making anyone feel bad for having them. For me it's not just him being free to find a mate, I just feel like, flat out, they are not suitable pets and are not suited for life in captivity. They have wings, we clip-they are meant to be free flight (again my opinion not meant to be forced on anyone) and I honesty feel like the majority of us simply can not provide the life they really need to be healthy and happy. (Please don't take that as me passing judgement on anyone, it is honestly not intended that way). And to me, free flight in your house is not the same as free flight in the wild. The lists of reasons I feel they should not be in our homes goes on and on...

Again, to clarify I don't think anyone here is a bad parront-that's not what I'm implying nor am I implying that anyone SHOULD feel guilty for having a large parrot, but I feel guilty for it.

 

[Cephus]

YES! And it was something I didn't understand until the past year or so. Chico should not be a pet (in my opinion). I never felt this way with my cockatiels but I do with large parrots, I feel like they should be in the wild, not in our homes.

I want to clarify guys, this is just my opinion, I don't look down on any of us for having large parrot, and I don't want MY opinion making anyone feel bad for having them. For me it's not just him being free to find a mate, I just feel like, flat out, they are not suitable pets and are not suited for life in captivity. They have wings, we clip-they are meant to be free flight (again my opinion not meant to be forced on anyone) and I honesty feel like the majority of us simply can not provide the life they really need to be healthy and happy. (Please don't take that as me passing judgement on anyone, it is honestly not intended that way). And to me, free flight in your house is not the same as free flight in the wild. The lists of reasons I feel they should not be in our homes goes on and on...

Again, to clarify I don't think anyone here is a bad parront-that's not what I'm implying nor am I implying that anyone SHOULD feel guilty for having a large parrot, but I feel guilty for it.

Then if you feel that bad about it, why do you do it? It is not logical to feel guilty for doing something and continue to do it. It's hypocritical.

 

[Anne & Gang]

Do I feel guilty for owning birds...no. I feel ASHAMED for the abuse that is done to birds and to ALL animals. We look after our birds the best we can and I think we do a good job. Do not forget that in the wild, Maxwell would be long dead....His parents pecked injured him in the nest box..In the wild he wou ld never have survived....never...in fact, he was on the road to dying where he was...I feel ashamed when I see pet stores like t he one I was at....while on the surface, they sell wonderful products and their animals appear to be well kept, there are always dirty little secrets...While I cannot stop buying from pet stores because I have to feed my birds, I can stop patronizing the worst of them. I feel ashamed of myself sometimes for going to a pet store and having blinders on...I was at that pet store many times previously and never saw the "truth"..because I did not notice Maxwell..how long he was scrabbling on t he floor for food is anyone's guess. Maybe an angel made my eyes go to the floor that day to see the little crippled one.....as for human nature in general...We are all killers...We routinely torture and kill livestock and animals for food...No matter how humanely done, one cannot escape the fact that it is done. We fight wars. We cut down trees and kill rivers. We hate our fellow men because they are a different color, a different religion..the list is endless. I cannot feel guilty about everything than man has done from the beginning of time...therein lies the road to madness.

 

[Nìmwey]

Another good example of how I feel about it, was said/written by Greg Glendell, in his article "Parrots and the need for a new aviculture".

"I suspect that if aviculturists do not make significant and rapid improvements in the care of birds, aviculture as we know it will not survive. And if it does not change, for the sake of the birds, it deserves to be outlawed."

 

[sodakat]

Another good example of how I feel about it, was said/written by Greg Glendell, in his article "Parrots and the need for a new aviculture".

"I suspect that if aviculturists do not make significant and rapid improvements in the care of birds, aviculture as we know it will not survive. And if it does not change, for the sake of the birds, it deserves to be outlawed."

That article was written in 2000. The EU banned import of wild caughts in 2007. I don't know what countries still allow them or how great the demand is.

I just do not get why you own a parrot if you believe they should not be kept as pets. What kind of sense does that make?

Your quote is interesting. What do you propose happen to all the pet parrots if aviculture is outlawed?

 

[shellbeme]

Then if you feel that bad about it, why do you do it? It is not logical to feel guilty for doing something and continue to do it. It's hypocritical.

I have yet to meet a human being who is not hypocritical about SOMETHING so it's a word I tend to stay away from.

I keep my grey because he didn't ask to come live with me, 15 years ago I chose to purchase him. I look at it as taking responsibility, something that is severly lacking in today's society. I do the best that I can for him, and I do still love him.

 

[jmfleish]

Another good example of how I feel about it, was said/written by Greg Glendell, in his article "Parrots and the need for a new aviculture".

"I suspect that if aviculturists do not make significant and rapid improvements in the care of birds, aviculture as we know it will not survive. And if it does not change, for the sake of the birds, it deserves to be outlawed."

Greg has a severe AR agenda and if it were up to him, no one would own birds...that's what the AR movement wants.

 

[jmfleish]

I have yet to meet a human being who is not hypocritical about SOMETHING so it's a word I tend to stay away from.

I keep my grey because he didn't ask to come live with me, 15 years ago I chose to purchase him. I look at it as taking responsibility, something that is severly lacking in today's society. I do the best that I can for him, and I do still love him.

I think the real question is, if you feel so guilty, why not find a better place for your grey to go? I'm guessing most people don't feel guilty enough to give up their birds but just enough guilt to say that we shouldn't own them...that's what kind of drives people nutty, at least it does me. Either you keep them and enjoy them, or give them up and stand on your morals...

 

[shellbeme]

So because I changed my views after having him for all these years, he diserves the trama of being rehomed? That makes no sense to me at all.

Your responses leave me with the impression that my post was taken offensively. I don't know how to make it any more clear that I don't think anyone is evil or bad for owning parrots nor am I trying to puush my view on anyone. I only want to share if it's just a better understanding you are trying to get, I can understand that.

 

[GlassOnion]

We are capable of differentiating right from wrong, from a moral strand point, but we also have our human selfish needs..

 

[jmfleish]

So because I changed my views after having him for all these years, he diserves the trama of being rehomed? That makes no sense to me at all.

Your responses leave me with the impression that my post was taken offensively. I don't know how to make it any more clear that I don't think anyone is evil or bad for owning parrots nor am I trying to puush my view on anyone. I only want to share if it's just a better understanding you are trying to get, I can understand that.

No, your views do not offend me, I just have a really hard time understanding why people feel guilty and yet they still keep their parrots and I guess I'm trying to understand why people feel this way. I would think that if people are so guilt ridden that they would then try to find what they consider a better life for their parrots. People like Mira Tweeti have this view but it almost seems more like she feels that she's the only person good enough to own parrots and no one else should. I think this is a dangerous ideal to hold.

 

[JLcribber]

I just do not get why you own a parrot if you believe they should not be kept as pets. What kind of sense does that make?

Your quote is interesting. What do you propose happen to all the pet parrots if aviculture is outlawed?

Since we are talking opinions.

Someone needs to look after the "millions" (in 1996 estimated to be 40 million in the US alone. That number could be easily doubled) of damaged (for lack of a better word) captive parrots already looking for homes. As the creator of the problem, we are obligated to try and correct it as well as providing for those already trapped in the cycle. Until all those birds are taken in and given loving caring homes, there isn't a valid reason to add to the problem by actively breeding more of them. Those additions just take away a chance at getting one of those already rare good homes.

If and when there are no more birds needing a good home. Then aviculture can be revisited. Society does the same thing with children.

 

[shellbeme]

No, your views do not offend me, I just have a really hard time understanding why people feel guilty and yet they still keep their parrots and I guess I'm trying to understand why people feel this way. I would think that if people are so guilt ridden that they would then try to find what they consider a better life for their parrots. People like Mira Tweeti have this view but it almost seems more like she feels that she's the only person good enough to own parrots and no one else should. I think this is a dangerous ideal to hold.

Jen, I still frequent this forum because, even though I know that for me, it's no more parrots, I stil feel like you guys are the best source of parrot care for pet parrots. I trust your advice and I appriciate the input I get here. I do feel guilty for having Chico, but let me assure you, I don't think I'm any better at parrot keeping than anyone here. I have a high opinon of you guys.

 

[Merlie]

Guess I'll be odd man out .. I don't feel guily at all. I love my birds, and I feel I give them the absolute best I possibly can, even at my own expense. If I didn't have them, someone else would, maybe someone who wouldn't care about them as much as I do.

Let's face it .. keeping birds as pets is here, and it's probably here to stay for good. Breeding of birds is here to stay, same as with dogs and cats, even though shelters and pounds are overflowing and thousands of unwanted dogs/cats are put to sleep. People still want their pure bred pup or kitty, just like they still want a baby bird.

I don't know, seems like all this talk is somewhat wasted energy. We can boo hoo about the conditions at pet stores, at the huge, mill type breeders .. but only we can take action. We speak louder with our actions.

Don't buy an animal from a pet store .. don't buy an animal from a bulk/mill type breeder. Supporting those types of places just allows them to keep on doing what they're doing .. which is craptastic. Try to take in a rehome, or rescue/shelter animal, even if they aren't "perfect".

If you do chose to buy puppy, kitty, baby bird .. whatever .. research the breeder very well. What type of person are they? How do they keep their breeding stock? There ARE GOOD BREEDERS out there .. people who truly do care about what they do and the homes their babies go to.

We can go round and round and round about this topic until Hades freezes over .. but it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't "fix" anything.

We need to be .. at this point .. educators and advocates. The pet bird business isn't going anywhere, so instead of debating whether or not we should have them, which is kinda moot, let's try to educated people about how to properly keep these beautiful winged creatures. If you just help one person be a better bird owner, and they help just one person .. and so on and so on, we can made a difference. Perhaps just a little bit at a time, but still .. a difference in one bird's life is a huge thing, to me anyway.

So .. for those of you who feel "guilty" .. turn that guilt into positve action, make a difference in just one bird's life, start the wheel rolling. I don't know how many members we have here on AA, but just think, if each one of us makes it a point to educate and advocate .. to help improve just one little bird's life .. just think about how many potential lives could be improved!!

Pay it forward people .. pay it forward .. stop with the guilt and martyr syndromes .. they get us no where. Use that energy to MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!!

 

[65sunnyday]

[
QUOTE=Mercedez;827214]No one breeds birds for temperament for temperment. No one will either.

Mercedes--check out Steve Hartman at Hartman Aviary. I believe he also is responsible for the Aviator Harness. Good articles, too. I'm sorry that I don't know how to provide all that info here.

 

[Nargle]

We need to be .. at this point .. educators and advocates. The pet bird business isn't going anywhere, so instead of debating whether or not we should have them, which is kinda moot, let's try to educated people about how to properly keep these beautiful winged creatures. If you just help one person be a better bird owner, and they help just one person .. and so on and so on, we can made a difference. Perhaps just a little bit at a time, but still .. a difference in one bird's life is a huge thing, to me anyway.

So .. for those of you who feel "guilty" .. turn that guilt into positve action, make a difference in just one bird's life, start the wheel rolling. I don't know how many members we have here on AA, but just think, if each one of us makes it a point to educate and advocate .. to help improve just one little bird's life .. just think about how many potential lives could be improved!!

Pay it forward people .. pay it forward .. stop with the guilt and martyr syndromes .. they get us no where. Use that energy to MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!!

Absolutely wonderful post, I especially agree with this part!

 

[65sunnyday]

Greg has a severe AR agenda and if it were up to him, no one would own birds...that's what the AR movement wants.

I couldn't disagree with you more. It really becomes difficult to remain civil when I hear such sweeping, aggendized misstatements, so I won't participate any longer in this thread.

 

[sodakat]

Someone needs to look after the "millions" (in 1996 estimated to be 40 million in the US alone. That number could be easily doubled) of damaged (for lack of a better word) captive parrots already looking for homes. As the creator of the problem, we are obligated to try and correct it as well as providing for those already trapped in the cycle. Until all those birds are taken in and given loving caring homes, there isn't a valid reason to add to the problem by actively breeding more of them. Those additions just take away a chance at getting one of those already rare good homes.
....

Sorry John, I don't believe there are 40 million parrots in the U.S. that need homes. I doubt there are more than a few thousand. You are talking parrots who have no permanent home, such as those in rescues, correct?

Also, we are going to have to agree to disagree on whether people should be allowed to breed birds or even if they should breed birds. This is awkward for me because normally I am right there with you on the opinions you post.