Do you ever feel guilty about aviculture?

[Laurul Feather Cat]

Go Merlie! Advocacy is the way to go.

 

[Bokkapooh]

[
QUOTE=Mercedez;827214]No one breeds birds for temperament for temperment. No one will either.

Mercedes--check out Steve Hartman at Hartman Aviary. I believe he also is responsible for the Aviator Harness. Good articles, too. I'm sorry that I don't know how to provide all that info here.

Yep, I have read the articles.

I'm not guilty of having my birds, I think many of you are confusing this. It's OK t[MARQUEE][/MARQUEE]o feel guilt about the wild caught that were imported and even feel guilty of buying from a petstore, or feel guilty when you see your birds look longingly outside at the wild birds. I think its crazy for many of you to say "if your guilty why not rehome your bird(s)", I feel the ones who say this dont understand where many of us are coming from. Why would we rehome them? We dont hate our birds...

As a selfish human being I will always have my birds. I provide the best I can for them and try to educate others. However I will always feel guilty that my birds are in captivity. I try and imagine that what if their parents weren't captured and Bokka and the rest were free. I wonder this all the time when I hear of all the abused and neglected birds. I feel terribly sad. But I do the best I can for all my birds, they are in a great home, well loved and cared for. Why would I do such a horrible thing and stop helping birds and rehome my fabies to said "better home" for feelings bad(guilty, ashamed, sad, angry) for birds in captivity and all the wild ones being killed and stolen from their natural homes.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Greg has a severe AR agenda and if it were up to him, no one would own birds...that's what the AR movement wants.

I am not an AR advocate and wish all animals were not in human care and were free. I especially think its wrong to "own" a species like an intelligent parrot or bird. They shouldn't be thought of as owned or as a pet, but apart of family to be well cared for and loved. That would be a good world. However, that is impossible and will never happen! What we can push for is humane practices, education, and always improve animal welfare. Let's face it, the animal welfare laws that are in place suck. More stricter laws need to happen.

 

[JLcribber]

Sorry John, I don't believe there are 40 million parrots in the U.S. that need homes. I doubt there are more than a few thousand. You are talking parrots who have no permanent home, such as those in rescues, correct?

Also, we are going to have to agree to disagree on whether people should be allowed to breed birds or even if they should breed birds. This is awkward for me because normally I am right there with you on the opinions you post.

It's more than a few thousand. If only 1% of birds didn't have homes that would still add up to 800,000 birds. (It's definitely higher than 1%) but those are semantics.

We do agree to disagree on this subject. As Merlie said, better to expend our efforts educating and motivating people to do better for all birds.

 

[singermanlynne]

If I could wave a magic wand , I would erase all this guilt I am reading about. Come on guys! You are the " good guys". You are the ones that care, that read and learn. You are the ones that take time to share your thoughts and experiences. You are the ones that are creating a better educated pet owner and pet consumer. The one area I think we as a group can have a meaningful impact is by supporting a certain standard of breeding and hand-feeding. The more I read the more I am convinced that the quality of life for a bird can be established by the breeder. These well socialized/neutured babies become birds that make wonderful companions that don't end up needing to be rehomed ( and if so they are easily adoptable ). Why would we believe ( and yet before I started researching I also did not think the early weeks were super important ) that the first months life only needed to include the food and warmth that make the baby gain weight and learn to eat on it's own. How it got the food and warmth that created a strong and healthy looking baby was not discussed. Why should it be...if the baby looked good and was weaned wasn't that enough for the breeder or hand feeder to worry about. What difference does it make to a hungry baby if it is scoped up and pumped full of warm food in a few seconds....does it need to be held close for a few moments and talked to softly in a dimly lighted room as it is gently and slowly filled with warm food. Yes it does if you want a confident pet. What difference does it make if it huddles alone in a plastic box as long as it is warm enough...does it benefit from the warm body of another baby bird, even a different type of bird. Yes ,it does if you want a confident bird that knows it is a bird and has a companion to preen and be preened by. What does it matter if the baby is weaned to only one type of food...does it really make a difference if it has been abundantly weaned ( to a variety of foods and fruit and veg. ). Yes, if you want the pleasure of a bird that will try new foods along with the health and stimulation of variety. It goes on and on. A quality breeder offering gentle handling, nurturing and socialization is spending a lot of time on every baby they send out into the world for us to have as pets. They deserve to earn more money for this level of care. I believe if we establish a clear description of what this care includes and support the breeders that adhere to this method we can change the breeding standards. Money talks!! If we search out and pay a better price for these " Better Beginning Baby Birds " the other breeders will get the message. You heard of the "Better Business Bureau" - BBB - that good companies want to have on their ads...well breeders will all want to have the BBBB on their websites. The early days do matter and our dollars can vote for the changes that will redefine the way breeders handle our future pets. Stop feeling guilty and use that energy to research this issue and create a standard of practice and spread the word. We want all our baby birds to be in the hands of a breeder that has a "BBBB" from the Avian Avenue.

 

[Cephus]

If and when there are no more birds needing a good home. Then aviculture can be revisited. Society does the same thing with children.

But that will never happen, any more than it will happen with dogs or cats or birds or horses or children. Some people will always be irresponsible. How is that irresponsibility your fault? Why should what someone else does make you feel guilty if you're doing nothing wrong? That's what I don't get. If you're providing the best home for your animals, regardless of what those animals happen to be, that you can, then what is there to feel guilty about? And if you do insist on feeling guilty, how can you help but do whatever it takes, including getting rid of your birds, to alleviate that guilt?

It's like the guy who complains that he hates hitting himself on the head, yet keeps hitting himself on the head. If you refuse to stop, how can you feel guilty over it? It makes no sense.

 

[Cephus]

It's more than a few thousand. If only 1% of birds didn't have homes that would still add up to 800,000 birds. (It's definitely higher than 1%) but those are semantics.

All of the sources I've found say there are a total of 10-17 million pet birds of *ANY* kind in the United States. Only 3.9% of U.S. households have birds, whereas more than 30% have dogs and cats. While I'm willing to eliminate chickens, geese and the like from that total, you still have lots of non-parrots. At the high end, you're still looking at 17,000 homeless birds, not 800,000. Let's try to stick with the actual facts here, can we?

 

[Cephus]

Mercedes--check out Steve Hartman at Hartman Aviary. I believe he also is responsible for the Aviator Harness. Good articles, too. I'm sorry that I don't know how to provide all that info here.

Here's the link.

 

[jmfleish]

On a grey forum that I belong to, a pro PETA member actually did some number crunching a while back and was amazed at what she figured. This is conjecture, but let's say there are twenty rescues in each of the fifty states. Let's say that each rescue has 500 birds available for adoption. That's still only 500,000 birds needing a home and that number is very, very generous. Many states have no rescues. I know that Wisconsin only has two or three and I volunteered for one of the bigger ones that definitely never had more than fifty to seventy-five birds at one time. So, the numbers I offer up are definitely on the very high end of things. Looking at those numbers makes you wonder how in the world anyone would come up with 40 million birds in need of a home.

Another thing about rescue that drives me crazy is the fact that so many of them hoard the birds and make it nearly impossible to adopt from them. I think many of us would love to adopt a parrot but have had so many problems doing so that we've just decided not to bother.

 

[jmfleish]

I am not an AR advocate and wish all animals were not in human care and were free. I especially think its wrong to "own" a species like an intelligent parrot or bird. They shouldn't be thought of as owned or as a pet, but apart of family to be well cared for and loved. That would be a good world. However, that is impossible and will never happen! What we can push for is humane practices, education, and always improve animal welfare. Let's face it, the animal welfare laws that are in place suck. More stricter laws need to happen.

Unfortunately, Mercedez, this is a view held by people with an AR agenda. The AR folks want exactly this. I know you aren't AR, but statements like this fuel the AR movement. The AR movement wants to do exactly what John said, make breeding of any animal, including livestock, illegal so that we no longer have pets after this generation dies out. Once that happens, there will be no more pets period. I know this is not how you feel, but you have to be aware that this is the goal of the AR movement and makes it possible to do exactly what you state you wish could happen..."all animals were not in human care and were free" was your exact quote...the AR movement wants to make this a reality.

 

[Bokkapooh]

So birds in rescues are the only ones looking for a home? CL doesn't count? Other online sites dont count? Animals waiting find their forever homes in petstores don't count? You have the numbers for rescues, what about other places?

 

[Bokkapooh]

Unfortunately, Mercedez, this is a view held by people with an AR agenda. The AR folks want exactly this. I know you aren't AR, but statements like this fuel the AR movement. The AR movement wants to do exactly what John said, make breeding of any animal, including livestock, illegal so that we no longer have pets after this generation dies out. Once that happens, there will be no more pets period. I know this is not how you feel, but you have to be aware that this is the goal of the AR movement and makes it possible to do exactly what you state you wish could happen..."all animals were not in human care and were free" was your exact quote...the AR movement wants to make this a reality.

Are you truly worried that that would ever happen?

 

[TextsFromParrots]

"Another thing about rescue that drives me crazy is the fact that so many of them hoard the birds and make it nearly impossible to adopt from them. I think many of us would love to adopt a parrot but have had so many problems doing so that we've just decided not to bother."



I wouldn't mind a rescued bird at all. When i go for a grey some time years from now or a cockatoo or whatever bird I decide to take on once Lafayette and Piper have moved on I want to get a rescue. The rescues though make it a frightening and exhausting experience. One of the rescues here won't let you adopt if you own a cat. Sorry..not giving up my cats because I own birds. I just know how to be careful. Also you're required to have proof you've owned a bird before and cockatiels, budgies, and conures don't count. So to rescue a bird from my local place I have to essentially buy another bird to prove I can own it. That right there was one of the reasons I walked away from trying to rescue a green cheek. They wanted me to have owned a cockatiel or budgie before it. No. Just no.

I don't feel guilty for owning my birds. Will I buy from a breeder again? Maybe. I need to find the right bird for me, and where I find that bird will be where I find it, but my first route will be to try craigslist and other websites and contact rescues. However for my first bird I wanted one I knew was hand raised, young and didn't come with issues like plucking, fear of hands, aggression because this was the first bird I've ever owned. I wanted to start out fresh, later when I feel fully comfortable with my guys and all their moods and habits through the years I'll feel comfortable going to a rescue. When I first made the choice to own a bird I knew I wouldn't be doing them or me any favors by taking on more then I could comfortably handle.

 

[marian]

Wow not sure how I missed this thread.I don't really feel guilty about having Hiram.I have privided a good home for him for many many years.I am appalled at the industry as John stated.The welfare of these birds isnt always considered.It's the almighty dollar.I think hiram is a very happy bird. Will I own another parrot in my life time?Probably not.I really don't think I ever got over losing my grey sadie seven years ago.

 

[JLcribber]

All of the sources I've found say there are a total of 10-17 million pet birds of *ANY* kind in the United States. Only 3.9% of U.S. households have birds, whereas more than 30% have dogs and cats. While I'm willing to eliminate chickens, geese and the like from that total, you still have lots of non-parrots. At the high end, you're still looking at 17,000 homeless birds, not 800,000. Let's try to stick with the actual facts here, can we?

How Many Captive Birds: Are Population Studies Giving Us a Clear Picture?

Why Numbers Alone May Not Tell the Whole Story
While all of these estimates of “pet” birds are far lower than those for companion cats and dogs, the population of cats and dogs has remained relatively stable over time while “pet” bird populations have increased substantially in recent years. With the commercialization of birds as pets and mass production-style breeding operations, and avian welfare organizations have witnessed an alarming increase in the number of displaced/unwanted captive birds. More than half of all captive birds are classified in the order Psittaciformes, comprising more than 350 parrot species. Many of the larger parrots in captivity can live 60 years or more—4 times the lifespan of dogs and cats. The limitations of avian medicine do not provide for birds to be routinely spayed or neutered so anyone who acquires a pair of parrots has the potential to become a breeder. “Bird mills”—breeding facilities capable of producing hundreds and even hundreds of thousands of birds and bringing them to market quickly—exist all across America.
The point at which animals kept as human “companions” reach “overpopulation” is determined not by the number of animals but by the number responsible, qualified caretakers available to care for the type of animal in question. Species that have complex or demanding requirements needing skillful and knowledgeable caretakers who are prepared to commit significant time and/or resources to animal care will reach an “overpopulation” at a lower total number than species requiring less specialized care. For example, there are more people who are capable of providing care for cats and dogs than there are people who are capable of providing care for exotic animals such as parrots, reptiles, or primates. Therefore, while there may be a larger total number of homeless cats and dogs compared to homeless captive parrots, there are also a larger number of potential homes for cats and dogs while there are relatively few qualified and capable potential homes for parrots.
Many exotic bird breeders have argued that there is no “overpopulation” of parrots because they are still able to sell the birds they raise. However, the same can be said of purebred dog and cat breeders. This is because despite the well-recognized overpopulation of cats and dogs in this country, there still exists a market for purebred animals—especially purebred puppies and kittens. Likewise there continues to be a market for certain types of captive birds—especially young or baby birds. The demand for young birds is driven by a marketing myth: a young bird or even unweaned bird will guarantee a better “pet.” This widely believed myth creates a demand for young birds that is perpetuated by breeders and pet stores, thereby ensuring continued sales in a market that is over-saturated with older birds of every variety.

And as Mercedez said.

So birds in rescues are the only ones looking for a home? CL doesn't count? Other online sites dont count? Animals waiting to find their forever homes in petstores don't count? You have the numbers for rescues, what about other places?

 

[Onyxena]

Completely agree Kalan! I have looked into adopting from a rescue, and quickly realized that is not the way to go for me! They definately do serve a valuable purpose, but I really do not see myself jumping through all the hoops and all that they generally require. Not bashing them, but not for me. I agree that pet ownership is here to stay, good or bad. I feel that those of us who DO feel guilty are the ones that really care the most about the well being of the birds. We are often the ones who strive provide the besst possible life in a captive pet environment. We are the ones who see them for how they are truly meant to be. All of us who do continually educate ourselves, who do try to provide the best, who do want their birds to feel content in our homes are not the problem, I feel.

So many people get quickly overwhelmed with the demands and sacrifices these birds require. They are the ones who think a parrot would be neat. Who buy on impulse. who decide to get a sun conure because the pet store said they aren't loud if you raise them "right". Who get a BG macaw because the baby at the store is sooooo cute and nice, and hey, they always thought a parrot would be neat! I really feel though, that these folks are only partly to blame. I have said before that I strongly feel that many breeders and sellers are really the issue. They sell young birds to the uneducated general public. They sugar coat every aspect. They sell birds as family pets. They minimize the potential for aggression (just raise them right! what does this mean anyways?? I see this with dogs alot too!) They encourage the birds to sit still and be receptive to constant petting. They don't even generally tell buyers that the birds will grow up and be very different than the baby they are bringing home. They will tell buyers that they are only noisy if they don't get enough attention. Of course they do not tell them that many birds will quickly come to demand nearly constant attention with screaming, which is nearly impossible habit for a newbie owner to break. It's like these birds are just doomed from the start. They are not seen for what they truly are. They are expected to fulfill a role in the owners life. Then they pay the price once the owner cannot deal with it any longer.

I feel that educating potential buyers is the best way. Not flawless of course, but a start. If more buyers were somewhat knowledgeable, they may be more demanding about the quality of the breeding programs. But here in reality, we know this about dogs and cats, yet thousands still die everyday. And these have been domesticated for centuries. And we know how to curb the overpopulation issue, So I really doubt most people are really going to seriously take these thoughts into consideration for something many folks still consider "just a bird".

 

[jmfleish]

So birds in rescues are the only ones looking for a home? CL doesn't count? Other online sites dont count? Animals waiting find their forever homes in petstores don't count? You have the numbers for rescues, what about other places?

I was incredibly generous with the 20 rescues per state with 500 birds per rescue. Many states don't even have rescues. I think this more than covers all the birds that come up on Craig's List. The numbers they push are just not there.

 

[jmfleish]

Are you truly worried that that would ever happen?

Um...yes and that is simply because of the statement you made. Once again, look at what you said:

"all animals were not in human care and were free"

You either believe this or you don't. If you do, it certainly is attainable and people are working to do just that. Look at all the breed specific legislation that is being forced through the courts. What about HR 669? Remember that? Had that gone through, breeding of parrots would have been illegal. Crossing state lines with a bird would have been illegal. Willing your parrot to a family member would have been illegal. That's reality and that's what people try to push through and when it's so easy to prey on people's guilt, it's easy to see how it could eventually happen.

 

[Liana]

Originally Posted by jmfleish
Unfortunately, Mercedez, this is a view held by people with an AR agenda. The AR folks want exactly this. I know you aren't AR, but statements like this fuel the AR movement. The AR movement wants to do exactly what John said, make breeding of any animal, including livestock, illegal so that we no longer have pets after this generation dies out. Once that happens, there will be no more pets period. I know this is not how you feel, but you have to be aware that this is the goal of the AR movement and makes it possible to do exactly what you state you wish could happen..."all animals were not in human care and were free" was your exact quote...the AR movement wants to make this a reality.

Are you truly worried that that would ever happen?

I try to stay out of the controversial subjects on here as rarely do people change their minds, they just seem to rehash the same information over and over, perhaps in slightly different ways. Same end result. With that said :

Laws change and anything is possible. I personally can't see people not being allowed to have dogs or cats (who knows though. Could be breed specific), however I can see people having to choose have a limit set and losing their pets that way. I am not talking about hoarding situations. When it comes to big lobbies such as some of the animal rights groups particularly PETA if they put the right amount of pressure to some politicians that are holding a seat, these things are possible. Ferrets for example are restricted in several cities in the US and prohibited in certain states. What do people with their current animals if any of these laws don't have a grandfather clause attached to them?

If insane laws such as Eminent domain for example, exist in some areas, laws prohibiting pets in certain areas around this country are not far fetched. In case anyone doesn't know what eminent domain is, its where the government or some public agency can take someone's property, IE: air, water, land, home. The agency has to show that there is a public need for the property and the 5th amendment to the US constitution states that the property owner has to be compensated (but you can guess how well). This I suppose is fine for people wanting to give up their property, but what about everyone else. Very scary stuff, but it exists.

If laws change and people are forced to give up their precious furred, feathered or scaled family members, what happens then? Where do they go? Overcrowded sanctuaries and rescues in municipalities that don't have these laws. Are you all willing to give up those beautiful creatures in your avatars even if you are NOT certain that they will have a better life without you? Or should you (not anyone in particular) be exempt?


Why don't we do what is in our power to make the living conditions and lives of our pets better. We speak with our wallets. So lets, rescue when we can; buy from what is deemed as a reputable breeder, spread the word on better practices for bird / pet keeping. A lot of things have changed in the last 20 years in regards to the health and well being of parrots and other birds and I hope it only gets better with knowledge, understanding and sensitivity towards these wonderful creatures.

Thanks,
Liana


PS: Do I feel guilty? Not personally guilty. I know that poaching is wrong and should be stopped. I feel sad for every sick / mistreated animal.

 

[Saemma]

I occasionally feel inadequate as a parrot owner towards my *own* parrots.

I do not feel responsible for other parrot owners.
I do not feel responsible for people who do not yet have parrot and want to live with a parrot.
I do not feel guilty for having my parrots.

I do feel embarrassed and ashamed by humans and what we as a whole have done to cause *suffering* to the lives of so many parrots, dogs, cats, reptiles, fish, wild animals etc....you name it.