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Do you ever feel guilty about aviculture?

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Bokkapooh

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Yell at the people at Mirriam-Webster then. Somehow, I trust them over Wikipedia where anyone can put up anything they want.
I guess it depends on what you consider "domestic". Most experts in the bird world would say they are not domesticated. Actually i cannot think of any ornithologist or avian expert, or avian vet, that has said anything about the majority of the bird world, specifically parrots, being domesticated.

If people get into birds thinking they are domesticated, they are in a fast track of discovering that their little animal is truly a wild animal. Just takes time, typically hormones, to find this out.
 

Cephus

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Domestication is a continuum. If the only standard you're willing to use for being domesticated is dogs and cats, then certainly no other human companion animal is domesticated because they simply don't have the longevity under human care. When birds have been kept as companions for thousands of years, they'll be just as domesticated as dogs and cats. However, because we are breeding them for characteristics, both color and temperament, because we are producing animals that cannot live in the wild, both because they no longer have the instincts, but because the color morphs we're breeding would make them targets for predators.

Here's a news flash for you, all unaltered animals get hormonal, dogs and cats included. While it is a fact that birds do not currently get altered, it's really only been in the past 25-30 years that dogs and cats have routinely been fixed, now that we have a safe, quick and cheap means to do so. Before the 70s or 80s, having a dog fixed was an expensive, rare and dangerous procedure. Today, they're in and out in an afternoon for less than $100. Thousands of years of domestication, 30 years of alteration. When we find a cheap and quick way, either surgically or chemically, to do the same for birds, a lot of their natural hormonal issues will go away too. Thousands of years for dogs and cats, just a few hundred for birds. Keep in mind, outside of dogs and cats, most companion animals are not routinely fixed either and they are just as nippy and unpredictable as birds are. Just as a ferret owner, and they are absolutely domesticated (the ferret, not the owner). Just ask reptile owners. Heck, ask rodent owners, they can get nasty when they're hormonal too. Most of them aren't large enough to cause serious damage, that doesn't change the fact. Size has nothing to do with domestication.

When you set an impossible standard, of course it's easy to think that domestication doesn't exist, but if birds aren't domesticated, neither is any other animal outside of dogs and cats. If that's the position you want to take, fine. I just don't see the logic behind it.
 

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Ferrets, reptiles, fish, all considered wild animals. We are not breeding for temperment in birds or you wouldn't see such a backlash on hybrids. It's all about color and keeping the breeding lines pure. There are other animals that are considered domesticated, most livestock is considered domesticated because we've been breeding for a specific trait that makes them good for human needs.
 

Bokkapooh

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No one breeds birds for temperament for temperment. No one will either. They will always have that wild behavior. You can't breed it out of them. You can take an unruly bird and breed it. It won't have unruly offspring. And you can take that unruly bird, tame it, and it can develope a great sweet attitude, but if you breed it and handraise the.chicks. You'll still see excellent handraised offspring. You can never breed for personality. It's not that for which gives them a sweet disposition but how they are raised and handled early on throughout babyhood to adulthood.
 

Bokkapooh

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Also its very risky to neuter and spay a bird, nearly impossible. But the few that have had it done to them still had the.common normal.personality of a parrot.


Also not all unaltered animals are unruly. I have had many unaltered animals in my lifetime, no change in personality. Especially our male tom cats, sweet, affectionate, loving. When we had the cats fixed they just didn't tend to wander, but still would try and pick fights, claim territorial by spraying, etc.
 

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Domestication is a continuum. If the only standard you're willing to use for being domesticated is dogs and cats, then certainly no other human companion animal is domesticated because they simply don't have the longevity under human care. When birds have been kept as companions for thousands of years, they'll be just as domesticated as dogs and cats. However, because we are breeding them for characteristics, both color and temperament, because we are producing animals that cannot live in the wild, both because they no longer have the instincts, but because the color morphs we're breeding would make them targets for predators.

Here's a news flash for you, all unaltered animals get hormonal, dogs and cats included. While it is a fact that birds do not currently get altered, it's really only been in the past 25-30 years that dogs and cats have routinely been fixed, now that we have a safe, quick and cheap means to do so. Before the 70s or 80s, having a dog fixed was an expensive, rare and dangerous procedure. Today, they're in and out in an afternoon for less than $100. Thousands of years of domestication, 30 years of alteration. When we find a cheap and quick way, either surgically or chemically, to do the same for birds, a lot of their natural hormonal issues will go away too. Thousands of years for dogs and cats, just a few hundred for birds. Keep in mind, outside of dogs and cats, most companion animals are not routinely fixed either and they are just as nippy and unpredictable as birds are. Just as a ferret owner, and they are absolutely domesticated (the ferret, not the owner). Just ask reptile owners. Heck, ask rodent owners, they can get nasty when they're hormonal too. Most of them aren't large enough to cause serious damage, that doesn't change the fact. Size has nothing to do with domestication.

When you set an impossible standard, of course it's easy to think that domestication doesn't exist, but if birds aren't domesticated, neither is any other animal outside of dogs and cats. If that's the position you want to take, fine. I just don't see the logic behind it.

Generally, when one is in a hole, one quits digging.


g
 

SaraR

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No i don't feel guilty for having my birds. I generally don't look at adoption websites either though. I'll end up with more than i could handle if i constantly looked up animals in a bad situation or in need.

I love my birds and i do the best i possibly can by them and that's all i can do...Constantly TRY to make their lives better!
 

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I have to agree with Brian on this one. No matter how long humans have been living in "houses", it still isn't a natural situation. There's nothing natural about being able to control the climate in that house either. There is actually very little about anything that humans do that's natural anymore but it's a product of our evolution, good, bad, or indifferent.
So other animals, such as termites and bees and ants and beavers that build their own homes and cause massive changes in the landscape are also not natural? What about elephants toppling trees and changing forests? Even birds will build nests. Humans aren't the only animals that manipulate their environment.

BBC News | SCI/TECH | Ant supercolony dominates Europe
BBC News - 'World's biggest' beaver dam discovered in Canadian park
 

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I havent been on here much lately, but this is something I really do think about quite often. Of course I try to give my guys a good life, and overall they do seem to enjoy many aspects of the life I am able to provide. I feel strongly that birds CAN be content for the most part in our lives. BUT I also feel strongly that the content ones are the minority. They are just so complex and even "experts" have trouble understanding them fully. So of course the average pet owner who thought birds were really neat is just not going to be able to comprehend how intelligent and complex they actually are. One thing that comes to mind is the stereotypic pacing or head bobbing that most folks go "oh look! He's dancing! Cute!" while most of us who really try to understand them see a bored anxious, frustrated bird that is trying to settle himself.

I am kinda split though. I don't think it should be illegal at this point, but I also feel that if they were never brought into the country for pets they would be much better off. I do feel that captivity in general is not neccessarily bad, but the lives of most pet birds are very lacking in the stimulation they really need to be what they are meant to be. It is really challenging trying to keep up with the needs of the larger birds, even for those of us who are dedicated. I feel sad for all the birds whose lives are frustrating and boring. I really feel that they deserve so much more than to sit in a cage, deprived of almost every single natural instinct. Even my guys, who shower wiht me, get fresh water often, are out of cages on their hanging play areas for several hours, get high quality fresh foods, cooked foods, and toys, still are not able to freely do as they wish. To follow their natural instincts to nest and bond and breed, to fly as far as they wish.

I am not saying we should just all turn them loose in Brazil, but I really feel sad for all that they are unable to do. I do not feel guilty for providing them a caring home though. I have actually been thinking about this alot lately. Very profound really when you get into it deeply. Even if they were domesticated, I am not sure that would help anything really.
 

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Ferrets, reptiles, fish, all considered wild animals. We are not breeding for temperment in birds or you wouldn't see such a backlash on hybrids. It's all about color and keeping the breeding lines pure. There are other animals that are considered domesticated, most livestock is considered domesticated because we've been breeding for a specific trait that makes them good for human needs.
Ferrets are domesticated, have been for a long, long, long time. I don't know where you get your information, but it's wrong. All responsible breeders do breed for temperament, they do not breed violent animals. Breeding for temperament has nothing to do with hybridization, it is selecting the animals with the best traits to produce the best offspring. And I'll tell you something, it's bloody hard to type with a bird who insists on standing on the keyboard! ;)
 

Cephus

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Also its very risky to neuter and spay a bird, nearly impossible. But the few that have had it done to them still had the.common normal.personality of a parrot.
So far. I'm sure we'll come up with a way one of these days. It was risky to neuter dogs, back in the day too. Today, it's commonplace. It will be someday for birds as well, assuming the market keeps growing and it becomes financially viable to do so.
 

Nargle

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I want to comment on how many people are saying that parrots need to breed to feel fulfilled. I'm wondering what makes you guys so sure of that? I know that's a common argument with dogs to have at least one litter (which obviously many dogs absolutely shouldn't be bred, there is already an overpopulation of dogs, it would be totally out of control if every dog got to breed). Though a dog can live its entire life completely happily never reproducing. A female in heat or a male that is in the vicinity of a female in heat may feel hormonal responses that trigger their instinct to breed, but it's not an emotional desire to have puppies similar to how a human has the desire or social expectations to have children and start a family. I'm wondering if those saying that parrots need to breed in order to feel fulfilled are anthropomorphizing? Can a parrot live a happy fulfilled life without mating?

ETA: I also want to mention on the subject of altering animals, I've done quite a bit of research, and surgically altering an animal doesn't have any effect on the animals personality. The only thing that it will effect are obviously their ability to reproduce, and if the animal is altered to early, it can have a negative effect on the hormones that control their growth.
 
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Bokkapooh

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It's easy to netters an animal who's part dangle between their legs or their inside are close to a humans and easy to take out the uterus like a humans historectomy. A birds reproductive organs are right next to their aorta, and in the few cases where neutering and saying a parrot happens, many of them die due to bleeding. I honestly see no way you can ever safely neuter/spay any parrot or bird species and I don't see there ever being a change in their temperament either UNLESS you alter them BEFORE (Way before) they near their hormones. I would say you would have to alter them right after weaning. Then you may have a bird who stays and behaves like a baby bird forever. But I see this as disgusting and horrible. And due to the decline of wild populations and people rehoming and trying to become breeders, I see altering a bird as problematic.
 

Bokkapooh

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I want to comment on how many people are saying that parrots need to breed to feel fulfilled. I'm wondering what makes you guys so sure of that? I know that's a common argument with dogs to have at least one litter (which obviously many dogs absolutely shouldn't be bred, there is already an overpopulation of dogs, it would be totally out of control if every dog got to breed). Though a dog can live its entire life completely happily never reproducing. A female in heat or a male that is in the vicinity of a female in heat may feel hormonal responses that trigger their instinct to breed, but it's not an emotional desire to have puppies similar to how a human has the desire or social expectations to have children and start a family. I'm wondering if those saying that parrots need to breed in order to feel fulfilled are anthropomorphizing? Can a parrot live a happy fulfilled life without mating?
Because its their instinct and most of our companion parrot mate and breed for life. There life is all about preserving themself and then reproducing. Birds are so selfish and there is a reason for it. This is another reason why they are still wild. Even when those few captive parrots were altered and survived the procedure, it did nothing to their sex drive and their want to nest and raise babies.

Birds are not dogs, they don't live in packs, they don't truly live in flocks either. they live with their life time mate and have offspring every 1-2 years to raise and take care of. The cycle continues. Birds are meant to reproduce.

Birds are like human families (not anthromorphisizing just doing an example) when we go out to a restaurant and eat, we aren't there to socialize and be with everyone who is there, we probably don't know anyone, we are there with our family, we eat, and go. That is how birds are. They don't truly "flock" together. They travel the sake routs, to the same feeding grounds, then they leave off with their family.

For my male birds (I mainly have males) sex is very important and a daily activity of theirs. I can't reproduce and give them babies, but I allow them to hump and fully relieve themselves. It makes for a calm well mannered male umbrella cockatoo :)
 

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Because its their instinct and most of our companion parrot mate and breed for life. There life is all about preserving themself and then reproducing. Birds are so selfish and there is a reason for it. This is another reason why they are still wild. Even when those few captive parrots were altered and survived the procedure, it did nothing to their sex drive and their want to nest and raise babies.

Birds are not dogs, they don't live in packs, they don't truly live in flocks either. they live with their life time mate and have offspring every 1-2 years to raise and take care of. The cycle continues. Birds are meant to reproduce.

Birds are like human families (not anthromorphisizing just doing an example) when we go out to a restaurant and eat, we aren't there to socialize and be with everyone who is there, we probably don't know anyone, we are there with our family, we eat, and go. That is how birds are. They don't truly "flock" together. They travel the sake routs, to the same feeding grounds, then they leave off with their family.

For my male birds (I mainly have males) sex is very important and a daily activity of theirs. I can't reproduce and give them babies, but I allow them to hump and fully relieve themselves. It makes for a calm well mannered male umbrella cockatoo :)
But an instinct is just that, an instinct. Dogs have the instinct to have sex, too, even altered ones. ALL animals have the instinct to mate, that's how their species has continued to survive. But how do we know that their desire to mate is an emotional need (like in humans)? I'm not talking about having companionship (which is an obvious need), I'm talking about needing to reproduce. How do we know that parrots aren't happy unless they produce offspring? How do we know we're depriving our pet birds from having a fulfilled life if we deny them the chance to raise young?
 

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It is apart of their natural being in the wild to breed. Why would it be any different in captivity? It is not something that you can just flip a switch and say your in captivity so there is no use to feel the natural need to reproduce.
 

Bokkapooh

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It is apart of their natural being in the wild to breed. Why would it be any different in captivity? It is not something that you can just flip a switch and say your in captivity so there is no use to feel the natural need to reproduce.
Yes I agree. And birds are NOT land mammals, their make up and internal program is very different from a dog who goes into heat or any mammal's reason to reproduce. It is very important to them. It's why we see so many hormonal sex starved nesty birds in captivity.

Even though my U2s actively are able to relieve their built up sex drive, they still act nesty and want to breed and have a family. It's just how they are. Bokka will chew his belly feathers because he wants to incubate and raise babies. He is the only bird I know that does it for that reason because I have tested him. When he is given thinks to nest and incubate on (fingers, my hand, foot, large circular wooden beads) he wont chew his feathers. So I try to provide these to him when I see him get nesty.

I have noticed Moby will chew his belly feathers when feeling nesty too, and he wont incubate wood blocks or heads, but will my foot or arm and have noticed his belly feather chewing has somewhat diminished.
 

Nargle

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Yes I agree. And birds are NOT land mammals, their make up and internal program is very different from a dog who goes into heat or any mammal's reason to reproduce. It is very important to them. It's why we see so many hormonal sex starved nesty birds in captivity.

Even though my U2s actively are able to relieve their built up sex drive, they still act nesty and want to breed and have a family. It's just how they are. Bokka will chew his belly feathers because he wants to incubate and raise babies. He is the only bird I know that does it for that reason because I have tested him. When he is given thinks to nest and incubate on (fingers, my hand, foot, large circular wooden beads) he wont chew his feathers. So I try to provide these to him when I see him get nesty.

I have noticed Moby will chew his belly feathers when feeling nesty too, and he wont incubate wood blocks or heads, but will my foot or arm and have noticed his belly feather chewing has somewhat diminished.
I'm just trying to understand why birds are so different than mammals, and how we would know how important reproduction is to a bird, or that it's any more important to them than it is to a dog. And I believe there is a difference between physical urges and emotional fulfillment; it's possible to relieve a bird's sex drive through artificial means (as you've explained through experiences with your own parrots) but you can't really simulate hatching and raising living offspring. It makes absolute sense that a parrot might feel the need to express its sex drive physically, but whether or not it requires the emotional fulfillment associated with breeding and raising young to be happy in captivity is the big question. The point of the discussion in this thread is to discuss whether or not it's possible to keep a parrot emotionally fulfilled and satisfied in captivity. I also think it's important to base our ideas of what is and isn't important to a parrot's well being on evidence rather than anthropomorphizing, otherwise we're doing a disservice to the parrot IMO.
 

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The goal of ALL life is to reproduce itself. That is the only reason to be alive on a physical, meat and bone, level. Period. Sex and reproduction are the goal of living, of surviving long enough to become mature and strong enough to reproduce. The physical body must make other copies of itself.

Our animal bodies have only one goal. The question is, how did our mental, emotional life evolve? From the need to preserve and mature the animal body? From our physical brain, we have created religion, philosophy, science, and all the other mental disciplines; with which we now try to reform and repurpose our animal bodies. Think about it. It is absolutely mind blowing (see, not body blowing)!

I said I do not have guilt or shame about having and keeping pets. And that statement remains true 100%. I do, however, worry about the god-like syndrome it creates in our minds and the things humans do because of that god-syndrome. Religions say we have the right to do whatever we want with animals because God made us the ultimate animal and all other life was created to be in our service. With a mind like ours, we can rationalize anything.
 
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