Do you ever feel guilty about aviculture?

[Cephus]

it won't only be our rights to own parrots that go out the door but the right to own any animal that will disappear...

I also agree with what you said about them not be domesticated but not wild either i know for a fact that they would have no idea how to survive if they were set free right now. They have had their food given to them since day one and they would have no idea what would be ok to eat and what would be deadly to eat.

Of course they're domesticated.
Definition of DOMESTICATE

transitive verb
1
: to bring into domestic use : adopt

2
: to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans

3
: to make domestic : fit for domestic life

Pet birds certainly fit that definition.

 

[Cephus]

Terribly guilty. I give them the best and do the best I can but every fiber of me knows that these beautiful parrots were never meant to live in my house. IMO, they are living an unnatural life.

By definition, so are you. Houses are not part of nature.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Birds are not domesticated, they are still wild animals even if bred and raised in captivity.

 

[Zeb]

Birds are not domesticated, they are still wild animals even if bred and raised in captivity.

Mmm....that's somewhat of a trick question. Chickens and pigeons can fall into the domesticated category, because there are variations that exist because of our breeding them....not naturally found in nature. I believe Budgies ( the english types, etc ) and even cockatiels are pretty close to domesticated.

Parrots are on the track to domestication....but breeders are generally happy to get a baby bird because they can collect money on it, rather than breeding for temperment or certain traits like canine breeders focus on.

 

[Kathie]

I feel the most "guilty" during the nice weather and when I watch the documentary Parrots of the Land of Oz. Then, when winter hits and I see so many birds outside freezing and hungry, I go home and am happy my birds have tons of food in their cages, are warm and happy. So, my feelings are totally mixed depending on the season.


What bothers me a lot is people who are not given the proper education and place birds in a cage too small - for whatever reason. I still see budgies, lovebirds, tiels, parrotlets, etc. in those awful cages that I wouldn't even use as a planter and I see medium and large sized birds in cages way too small, as well. This bothers me. At least with the appropriate cage size, they can feel a bit less imprisoned.

 

[Cephus]

Mmm....that's somewhat of a trick question. Chickens and pigeons can fall into the domesticated category, because there are variations that exist because of our breeding them....not naturally found in nature. I believe Budgies ( the english types, etc ) and even cockatiels are pretty close to domesticated.

Parrots are on the track to domestication....but breeders are generally happy to get a baby bird because they can collect money on it, rather than breeding for temperment or certain traits like canine breeders focus on.

Currently they are working on it, plus breeders are already breeding for color mutation, etc. It's only a matter of time until all pet birds are fully domesticated, I can't think of any of them that are entirely undomesticated at the moment. As with all other species, it's always a work in progress.

 

[Harley's Mom]

Do I feel guilty? Well Amos is the only one of my three I paid money to aquire and that was a "rehoming" fee.

They all have good food. Toys. Enrichment and activity outside their cages every day all day. They are all fully flighted and healthy.

The only one I feel guilty about is Gryphon, he is a wildcaptured bird imported into CA sometime in the 1970's. He's been mishandled by humans most of his life and used only for breeding to make a profit. 30+ years his had to endure suffering. I have watched daily the look of fear and mistrust in his eyes. It breaks my heart every single day.

If I knew he could survive now In the wild I'd send him back in a heartbeat. Gryphon does not "belong" in captivity he belongs flying free in the wild where he was born . My other two were captive bred for the purpose of being "pets" but what about their ancestors? They were birds like gryphon, taken from their wild habitats.

I'll never buy a baby bird from a breeder. There are too many out there that need homes.

I know vast improvements have been made in avian practices for that I am thankful. I'm grateful that importing is now illegal here. I enjoy my birds and can't imagine life without them now but yes I feel guilty.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dolldid]

I feel guilty cause my place is so small and i cant put about side Avery for Mango to really have some freedom .
' if i ever won big money id move to a bigger place with lots of land and fence it in have it so he could fly free but still be mine,,lol put fence up 30 feet hi

OK so its a dream but its what id love to do no walls in my home open concept high ceilings
but here we sit i do the best i can yes i screwed up but it will all work out , hes better off with me than with some one else hes not caged its his choice to sleep in one and be covered , the rest of the time hes totally free but again no room for a friend

yes i can live knowing hes got the best of both worlds

doll mango

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

No, I do not feel guilty or ashamed of having pet birds; or pets of any species. I like having pets; I love sharing my home and my life with my pets. As long as I take care of them properly, give them enrichment in their life and treat them with respect, I see no reason not to have my pets. You can wrangle about whether is is better to buy or adopt rehomes or what ever you wish to argue about, but I do not see where it matters how you obtained your pet along as it is not taken from a wild population and is properly cared for.

What does make me very very sad is the state of animals in the 'wild'. We are methodically pushing every animal on this earth, except for ourselves, toward extinction. I save my shame and guilt and sadness for that. I revel in my interactions with my birds and cats and enjoy their company immensely.

 

[Sparkles]

By definition, so are you. Houses are not part of nature.

I would strongly disagree with you! People have, from the earliest prehistoric times, lived in some time of a housing facility, was that a cave or a house made from mud or wood up to today's concrete and brick houses, as you can see the list is endless when it comes to what do humans (from tribes in Africa to cities of America) consider a home. So, as you have put it before, by definition, having a house is in human nature.

Turning the facts around to suite ones theory isn't scientific and therefore, you can't take it as a irrefutable fact. Doing that leads to demagogy and I think no-one wants that, because usually that doesn't lead to conclusions.

I do believe that domesticated means that their instincts aren't as strong as they are now. Dogs and cats are kept as pets for centuries and their instincts are not as strong as ones in our parrots are. Keeping one in a house in a cage, doesn't mean it's been domesticated. Feeding them people food (parrots don't eat cooked sweet potato in the wild) doesn't insure that either. Giving them toys doesn't mean it, too. Just look how many parrots have plucked them selves due to behavior issues (lack of attention, toys, ...), when you look at that, you can't say they are not wild animals
In a 200 years or so, that generation will be able to say that parrots of their lifetime are domesticated. When you take, purely scientific, the poi family. First breeders who bread sennies etc, reported that those babies, who were babies of wild caught parrots, were extremely shy, even the hand-fed ones. As time passed, they have become more and more calmer and the true poi personality is coming out. The same you can see in newly bread spicies like jardines. In 100-200 years, their instincts will be minimized.

In my opinion, after a longer period of time passes with parrots in humans homes, we can start talking about domesticated animals.

We should treasure the lives we have in our homes, they DIDN'T ask for us and DIDN'T pick us, WE picked THEM. And if we do OUR best, people will learn on OUR examples. And that's something to look forward to. I have 2 parrots in my home and I'm responsible for them, their health and well-being and I'll try to do my best for them.

 

[jmfleish]

I can just say it seems a lot of people here have never read Mytoos.
I did already in early/mid teens, but didn't "get" it until after I got my cockatoo.
I suppose I wouldn't say the smaller birds, such as Poicephalus and conures are directly suffering from captivity (but still, if I got to choose, not a single parrot would be bred for the pet trade), not as much as the larger birds.

The small guys still lack the freedom that all wild birds have - the flock life, the flying of maybe several kilometers every day... but they are not as easy to mistreat as the bigger ones. Captivity alone, despite all the love and toys in the world and the biggest cage you can possibly find, can drive a cockatoo for example, to insanity.

I feel so greatly disappointed every time someone buys a chick of one of the larger species, like a cockatoo, macaw, amazon, etc. It feels like I've failed, and now, one more bird will be brought into this world, and one more unwanted bird lost the chance of a home.

My Toos is precisely why you shouldn't buy into the garbage of feeling guilty for keeping parrots or any other animal for that matter. The people at My Toos and similar sites such as The New York City Bird Club believe that we should not own birds period, end of story. I think that would be a horrible tragedy. I think that, as others have mentioned, education is really the key, not calling for it to be illegal to share your life with them.

 

[jmfleish]

Of course they're domesticated.
Definition of DOMESTICATE

transitive verb
1
: to bring into domestic use : adopt

2
: to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans

3
: to make domestic : fit for domestic life

Pet birds certainly fit that definition.

Actually, your definition falls very short of what domestication really is. Here is a snippet from Wikipedia:

Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. A defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans. Humans have brought these populations under their control and care for a wide range of reasons: to produce food or valuable commodities (such as wool, cotton, or silk), for help with various types of work (such as transportation, protection, and warfare), scientific research, or simply to enjoy as companions or ornaments.

Most of our pet birds are no where near this stage of domestication and the simple fact that we are not breeding them for anything but color at this point doesn't help. In order to domesticate the parrot, we need to start breeding for temperment and I don't know that this will ever occur. Having said that, there's still no reason we shouldn't be able to keep them as pets and we shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it either.

 

[jmfleish]

I would strongly disagree with you! People have, from the earliest prehistoric times, lived in some time of a housing facility, was that a cave or a house made from mud or wood up to today's concrete and brick houses, as you can see the list is endless when it comes to what do humans (from tribes in Africa to cities of America) consider a home. So, as you have put it before, by definition, having a house is in human nature.

Turning the facts around to suite ones theory isn't scientific and therefore, you can't take it as a irrefutable fact. Doing that leads to demagogy and I think no-one wants that, because usually that doesn't lead to conclusions.

I do believe that domesticated means that their instincts aren't as strong as they are now. Dogs and cats are kept as pets for centuries and their instincts are not as strong as ones in our parrots are. Keeping one in a house in a cage, doesn't mean it's been domesticated. Feeding them people food (parrots don't eat cooked sweet potato in the wild) doesn't insure that either. Giving them toys doesn't mean it, too. Just look how many parrots have plucked them selves due to behavior issues (lack of attention, toys, ...), when you look at that, you can't say they are not wild animals
In a 200 years or so, that generation will be able to say that parrots of their lifetime are domesticated. When you take, purely scientific, the poi family. First breeders who bread sennies etc, reported that those babies, who were babies of wild caught parrots, were extremely shy, even the hand-fed ones. As time passed, they have become more and more calmer and the true poi personality is coming out. The same you can see in newly bread spicies like jardines. In 100-200 years, their instincts will be minimized.

In my opinion, after a longer period of time passes with parrots in humans homes, we can start talking about domesticated animals.

We should treasure the lives we have in our homes, they DIDN'T ask for us and DIDN'T pick us, WE picked THEM. And if we do OUR best, people will learn on OUR examples. And that's something to look forward to. I have 2 parrots in my home and I'm responsible for them, their health and well-being and I'll try to do my best for them.

I have to agree with Brian on this one. No matter how long humans have been living in "houses", it still isn't a natural situation. There's nothing natural about being able to control the climate in that house either. There is actually very little about anything that humans do that's natural anymore but it's a product of our evolution, good, bad, or indifferent.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I would definitely argue that parrots and many other bird species cannot truly be domesticated. And most birds cannot be bred into domestication. Animals like the dog, or other things like farm animals, yes, but pet birds are no where near or ever will be, domesticated. As Jen said, breeding for color variations doesn't make it domesticated. Parrots, and many soft bills such as the toucan and perhaps even finches, are still and will forever be wild even in captivity. Animals like the dog, have it in their genes to become domesticated or geared towards domestication, not parrots and most bird species. You will never breed their characteristics and wildness out of them to male them a true domestic animal.

And I wanted to say even "pet"/captive raised birds can and WILL survive in the wild. Not all will survive, however there is a huge chance, that if they were rehabilitated they certainly can live in the wild again. It's not impossible.

 

[jmfleish]

I would definitely argue that parrots and many other bird species cannot truly be domesticated. And most birds cannot be bred into domestication. Animals like the dog, or other things like farm animals, yes, but pet birds are no where near or ever will be, domesticated. As Jen said, breeding for color variations doesn't make it domesticated. Parrots, and many soft bills such as the toucan and perhaps even finches, are still and will forever be wild even in captivity. Animals like the dog, have it in their genes to become domesticated or geared towards domestication, not parrots and most bird species. You will never breed their characteristics and wildness out of them to male them a true domestic animal.

And I wanted to say even "pet"/captive raised birds can and WILL survive in the wild. Not all will survive, however there is a huge chance, that if they were rehabilitated they certainly can live in the wild again. It's not impossible.

Actually, I do think parrots can be domesticated, it's just going to take a lot and they have to be bred for temperment. That's what domestication is, selectively breeding in traits that work for what you are looking for in an animal. Until we do that though, no, we won't get any closer to domestication of the parrot.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Even with traits being bred, we won't really see if that can or will happen. They will always have hormones, they will always want to select a mate, they will always want to reproduce. We can't even neuter them. I cannot ever believe that any parrot or many birds gifted with flighted, can ever truly be domesticated.

My birds are PERFECT the way they are. Each different as each was raised differently from youngsterhood. However I do see that behavior will be a whole lot better with improved breeding and care. I don't think that has anything to do with domestication.

 

[Harleydo]

I didn't read through all the responses so if this is a repeat I apologize, the industry is the same as all the "Pet" industries out there, including the reptile, exotics (such as tigers and lions) cats and dogs. There will always be people out there to exploit the animals. As for myself feeling guilty, no because I know my guys are well taken care of, loved and cherished. Sure they aren't in their element but they have no clue that this is not suppose to be their element. Harley doesn't know that he's suppose to be free and living in South America, neither does Mollie living in Africa, this is their home. I am their aviary, neither can fly and frankly they would be dead because of their injuries. They were abused in the past and I stepped in and gave them a better aviary. Unfortunately, I nor any of us can save all the birdies and this is where the industry sucks and what most of you are talking about. All we can do is try and educate those not in the know and try and reveal those that exploit.

 

[Deejo]

I really like what you said
(quote):

"I am their aviary"

 

[lotus15]

Actually domestication cannot happen to all animal species. There are many, many species of animals that simply cannot be domesticated, regardless of selective breeding. One very famous scientific researcher actually made an argument about why as a continent Africa has not "developed" as quickly as other continents or moved as quickly towards town/city life (as opposed to tribal or village life), which had to deal with the fact that their native animals are non-domesticable (zebras [native to Africa], for example, unlike horses [not native], simply cannot be domesticated, even through selective breeding).

I don't think any such studies have been performed on parrots but the argument that "my parrot X would never survive in the wild; of course it's domesticated" is total nonsense. Pretty much any animal born in captivity wouldn't survive in the wild... take a lion in a zoo. Nope. Is that lion domesticated? Of course not.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Good point Coco.