Some Guidance Needed on Tests to Pursue,feeling really sad and anxious...

[Lady Min]

Hi guys,providing an update on my vet visit. I had to edit all my emotions out,as it was getting too long to read,so I'll just try and stick to the facts and make a separate post to cope later.

I was told to collect fecal samples over a 24 hour period for the Friday appointment. I laid down a fresh layer of paper approximately 24 hours prior to the appointment (but kept the paper with droppings from Wednesday evening to Thursday midday under it just in case).

We ended up taking samples from these 3 days for Percy (I helped her collect them into the tube) but I'm not sure if the droppings for Annabeth were taken over the 3 days or just Thursday to Friday,as she collected those. They were dried,not refrigerated.

The vet I saw (who privately sees dogs and cats) was the teaching assistant to the retiring university avian vet (who I've been trying to see for several months,and is the only one in our country). She did a physical exam for each of my birds,and weighed them. It was just noted Percy had good muscle tone,Annabeth had her lipoma and no more enlarged crop as she had previous to an antibiotic treatment (with amoxicillin clauvunate for 2 weeks during April/May-which I made sure they drank from their drinking water during treatment). Annabeth is 22g,Percy 52g (the vet seemed to think this was fine,but I know this is underweight and overweight for a budgie as they are normally 30-35 g).

Just to note, they had a vet visit earlier this year with a vet who had experience with birds,and prescribed the antibiotic for 2 weeks,ACV for 2 weeks and Iodine for 3 weeks every other day. The symptoms I mention below did not resolve at all during treatment,but it seems the enlarged crop did. Honestly now I even wonder if she mentioned an enlarged crop back then,but I'm pretty sure she did.

Fecal Test Results (which made me really depressed as they gave no answers):

-Parasitology; Fecal Floatation- No ova/cysts/oocyst observed for both birds.

-Microbiology: (Bacterial culture and sensitivity)
Annabeth- Streptococcus species 1+
Percy- No organism isolated after five days.

-Mycology:
Direct Smear: No fungi observed on direct smear
Microscopic Examination: No fungal growth detected after 7 days
(for both birds)

This week I was called and given advice,(which failed to address my concerns mentioned during and after the visit)

She said the results were reviewed by the avian vet. Not sure he watched the videos I compiled and sent. I was told he's the best for birds in the country,and he also does research.

The advice given was:give them mineral grit (-which I will never),continue the liquid iodine (I have been giving it for 2 years now) and saying a little gram positive bacteria like Streptococcus is good for my budgie to have. She then asked me if there is a nest-box in the cage (I guess they're trying to attribute the symptoms to breeding broodiness?)

Under normal circumstances, tests coming back negative is good. However,this just further compounds to the vets from before and my father that I'm just 'overreacting' and overobsessive about my birds-who aside from the incidents that I have observed seem normal and active to them. However,knowing birds,this just makes me more anxious as they are tricky to diagnose and can turn poorly very fast.

I really need some guidance and opinions based on their symptoms and the plan I want to continue forward with. I have concerns over respiratory and GI issues.

My main thoughts are:

A mild chronic respiratory disease,(I'm concerned about aspergillosis,pneumonia,something wrong with the air sacs,an enlarged organ,asthma or maybe some genetic issue that they both have?). However,I'm not sure how long a bird can survive with asper/pneumonia without treatment. I have treated both birds with Ivermectin several times,hoping to be rid of air sac mites that I previously suspected,however the coughing never resolved.

A mild chronic GI infection (I'm really concerned about AGY,and previously Candida and trichomonas. I'm not sure what else could cause seeds in Percy's droppings,maybe gut hypermotility for some reason..?). Another guess is foreign bodies, causing respiratory and GI issues. Annabeth's issues were observed before meeting Percy as I placed her in 45 day quarantine,but they were bought from the same shop 2 years apart).

Percy's symptoms: (major concerns) Age:2 years 8 months
-Squeaking-coughing fit,minimum once a day (since he was 2/3 months)

-Occasionally gets out of breath when flying around (however exercising this morning,he seemed ok)

-Late July, droppings stuck to his vent one day,one had a seed,and droppings sporadically had seeds (appeared about 5 times max) in June/July (last time droppings would stick to his vent were for 2 months when he was 1 year old,and I can't recall accurately if I saw seeds in droppings prior) younger).Observed one recent stuck dropping too,on the skin. No seeds in droppings since late July.

-4 bloody droppings, last 2 weeks in July (2 one week,2 the next-everything else was normal-if normal droppings dry with green stains around them). Since the beginning of August though,his droppings have been entirely normal,if a bit watery,due to drinking a lot of water


Annabeth's Symptoms: Age:1 year 4 months
-Vomitted seeds (and yellow mucus-sometimes) at least 20 times (started when she was around 5/6 months)
On one occasion,as a baby she vomitted because she ingested paper towel roll (I saw 3 pieces in the vomitus flinged out)
Five times,seemed like motion sickness-she vomitted seeds thrice after her first ever flight around the room and landing on me,and carrot pieces and yellow mucus once after I had to catch her and stop her from flying into something
Last time observed,late June.

-Same coughing squeak as Percy-however not everyday,maybe observed like thrice a month maximum if any (since she was 4/5 months)

-Droppings often stick to vent (however,she is good about preening/kicking them off,and loves bathing)

-Vent often dirty,stained green/brown (first,normally as a baby when she was brought home,twice after we rescued her when she escaped to the wild-however I cannot remember accurately if her vent was stained independently from this,or just a continuation from these events)
-Vent feathers sparse recently (The feathers that fall are the old stained feathers typically)
(P.s. I do want to try and wipe her vent clean,but it always stresses her out so I give her frequent baths to help loosen droppings and let her clean her vent instead)

-She sleeps a lot throughout the day,and closes her eyes often, and what terrified me was in late June she was going into corners and sleeping on the cage floor.However at times she was grinding her beak and chirping softly. It could be hormonal broodiness ,but with birds you never want to take a chance.

(What I have observed surprisingly though, very recently was that when I remove Percy from the cage,she is active,chirpy,chews and bob dances,barely ever napping-I'm not sure now if she just has regular afternoon naps,and likes being away from Percy who overly annoys her sometimes)

-I have seen her adjusting of her crop a lot,maybe most recently in late June.

-doesn't eat as much as Percy; (not sure if it's because Percy annoys her,but I try and make sure she eats)

-Droppings are much less and larger than Percy's,but never has undigested seeds in them (I can't tell if Percy overeats,or she under-eats,but the visit reflected their weight)

Both of them have droppings that dry with a green stain around them,which I heard is normal.Both constantly moult.

Here is a google drive link containing the videos and pics of the symptoms;if it's just one thing you guys can watch,I'd really appreciate if it is the coughing fits one, wonder if anyone has observed similarly.

Percy and Annabeth Medical History - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Ideas on How To Proceed from here:
Just a note,the only options I have currently are clinics with vets who 'have an interest in birds',but mostly see dogs and cats. The only avian vet in our country is retiring,but I still carried my birds to the university hospital in July as I was told he would review the history,videos and results,(but wouldn't be present for the physical,no matter how much I tried getting him to come,so no crop swabs were taken,which is what I wanted most).

I plan to call/email them back and press them for more thoughts on the history. I do assume the university will be rehiring a new avian vet (but in September) as they need someone to teach avian medicine to the vet students.

The test options I have available currently are:X-rays,bloodwork,throat swabs (possibly,not sure if they can). But there are issues in getting the last two.

The private clinic that does the last 2 are all the way on the other end of my island and I'd have to hire and pay for transport,and sneak out near the end of the month,as my parents are home till then. If my parents found out they would be seriously furious,especially because I had 2 vet visits this year already,and the results came back negative from this recent one. My father does care about my birds,but because they appear pretty active and normal aside from those incidents,he thinks I'm crazy. It was a miracle getting to go to the university to get the fecals done.

I hate saying this,but I do have limited funds that I am working with (I'm a student,and the money I've saved up is from birthdays over the years and set aside for the birds vet care). Currently I have about 1600 dollars. Hiring transport to the far clinic would be 450,leaving me with 1150.

The last time I called the private clinic,they said the physicals and tests(fecals again and swabs if they can) would cost 1460,the X-rays 1220 for 2 views for both birds,the blood panels (CBC and biochem,I assume would be minimum 300 per bird). I said if I ended up going there I would want all the tests done.

The next option is just getting the X-rays done at a nearby clinic (I'd have to convince them why I want one done,and hopefully they say yes,and not just dismiss me).When I get them done I can try and see if I can get the retiring avian vet to see them,and also take the advice of the vets at the clinic. The X-rays would cost around 900-for both birds,2 views. If blood tests are further needed I'll try and get to the other clinic.

I heard X-rays may be useful in seeing aspergillosis granulomas,I'm assuming it would help show pneumonia as well,helps show a dilated proventriculus in AGY (but not sure if that would be enough confirmation for diagnosis)...I also saw a video on another site where a budgie was experiencing the exact same cough as Percy and Annabeth and he was diagnosed with phlegm in his throat,as well as gastro and put on antibiotics. Would an X-ray be able to pick up any phlegm? If I wanted to pick up foreign masses,would a barium contrast x-ray be better for everything?

The third option,which I was considering,but is not the most quick,was waiting till September for the new school term,and seeing if the university rehired a new avian vet and X-ray technician.

I would be able to get throat swabs and X-rays done at a cheaper cost,with money to spare for future vet visits. The X-rays there would be 240 for both birds (2 views),and submitting the throat swabs for bacteria and fungi tests would be about 300. I'm not sure if they can do bloodwork there,but in that scenario,I will travel to the clinic that can.

If the university does not get a new avian vet,I'll proceed to go to the other clinics in September. Hopefully,the Covid situation will die down in my country a bit,and I won't be too much of a risk to my family as well.

I've been sobbing,stressing and experiencing severe anxiety over my birds. I just want to know if I'm making ok decisions. Because they seem relatively stable,happy and active now is the only reason I'm even considering September. The only issue I've been seeing since the start of August is the squeaking cough as usual,and Annabeth's sleepiness when Percy is around,as well as her previously sparse and stained vent feathers.

Again sorry for the whole novel of a post. Hopefully I didn't leave any important details out. What are your thoughts and advice guys?

 

[finchly]

I’ve read it all and watched/looked at about half your files so far. I want to read everything again.
Have you ever treated for mites, worms, Protozoa?
What EXACTLY do you feed them? List all pellets, seeds, fruit and vegetables for me please. And anything else.

 

[Lady Min]

Hi,thank you so much!

I have treated them in the past with Ivermectin a few times when they were one for both scaley mites and this squeaking sound which I thought was air sac mites, but never went away.

They had a vet visit early April and were prescribed with an antibiotic,amoxicillin clauvunate, for 2 weeks in their water,which I made sure they drank,apple cider vinegar in their water 2 weeks afterward and Iodine for 3 weeks

1st week,everyday,2nd week every other day,3rd week,twice that week

The apple cider vinegar I didn't follow up totally after the antibiotic, as I noticed a worm in their water which I found out later was a non-parasitic nematode,which I confirmed with the previous vet and Internet. I ensured that there were none in the water anytime thereafter.

Then I continued and finished that course with the vinegar and iodine.

They eat carrots,lettuce,recently they've been trying broccoli. I've been trying to get them to eat green peppers,peas,cauliflower and kale but that has failed,even in chop form. I will keep trying. I also try to get them to eat chia seeds.

Recently they started eating lentil sprouts,but only a little.

I used to feed them spinach often,until I learned the local spinach here is actually a type of amaranth (amaranthus dubius) and I read amaranth wasn't safe for budgies?

All the vegetables I give them are local and fresh.

When they were younger I would let them eat apple,and attempted blueberries,bananas and strawberries,but then I read that the focus should be more on vegetables as fruits are sugary so I stopped that.

I have been giving Percy and Annabeth apple cider vinegar maybe once/twice a week since they were one,iodine once/twice a week,and multivitamins once a week. I bought Morning Bird probiotics back in June/July and provide them that once a week in their water.

Between each day I put a water supplement,I give them fresh water,but in the past I used to just do them continuously.

I don't give them all the supplements every week,I try to alternate according to their needs. So this week,I gave them iodine twice as they are beginning to moult again.

In June,stores here started selling Roudybush,so I bought them some and crushed them up into a fine powder and sprinkled that on their seeds. I try to limit multivitamin consumption when they eat it,and provide them when they don't. Percy seems to be taking to it,but not Annabeth.

I also provide them local grass to run around and forage for throughout the day,and grow grass for them from their seed mix when I can't find any local grass.

Their seed mix is Versele Laga Prestige,but they primarily just eat the white and red millet from it nowadays.

I haven't treated them for worms or protozoa as I was tired of giving them supplements and ivermectin in the past to no avail.

I went to do tests for bacteria,fungi and parasites,but the parasitology test was negative based on fecal samples.

That was honestly my least concern as the symptoms they have did not seem to match up entirely with parasitic disease.

I can't recall if I'm forgetting anything else right now,but I'll update if I did miss something.

 

[finchly]

Wow! You’re doing a great job caring for them. Lentil sprouts are good, try to add more sprouts if you can.

What about coccidia, have you ever treated for that?

I think it’s a good plan to call the vet back and get more information. The bloody poop and the seeds in dropping both point to some kind of infection. These things are a big concern.

If they can find out what’s causing those and give an antibiotic, you could wait until September and get your tests done cheaper.

 

[finchly]

Also, I don’t know what country you’re in, do you have access to Neem tea?

 

[Macawnutz]

You know, you might save a ton to rule things out if you sent samples to avian biotech. Have you searched there site?

 

[BirdLady13]

There is a lot of info here, so hopefully I cover all the points I wanted to as I read through. Although I'm not a vet I do have experience raising an array of birds from the time they were adorable featherless mutants, caring for rehomes including disabled ones, etc.. so while I can't diagnose your birds I will certainly try to give you as much information as I can.

• Coughing, shortness of breath, and sitting on the bottom of the cage are signs of an upper respiratory tract viral infection.
• Wheezing and/or ceasing to chirp indicates an infestation of air sac mites. Since this one is highly contagious it is likely both birds would be infected, and both would need to be treated.
• Loose droppings, swollen crop, weight loss, and vomiting are signs of a yeast infection. Antibiotics would be needed.
• A combination of difficulty breathing, loose green droppings, and vomiting points to liver disease. If caught early, it can be cured with medication.
• Blood in the droppings can be a sign of internal bleeding or a tumor in the intestines; both of which would need to be treated immediately.

Telling you not to worry won't help, but I will say that you're doing the right thing by taking them to the vet. I would be the most concerned with the possibility of an infestation of air sac mites as it can cause suffocation. The only thing I can suggest is to continue dosing their water with apple cider vinegar while you wait for sufficient results. Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[Lady Min]

Wow! You’re doing a great job caring for them. Lentil sprouts are good, try to add more sprouts if you can.

What about coccidia, have you ever treated for that?

I think it’s a good plan to call the vet back and get more information. The bloody poop and the seeds in dropping both point to some kind of infection. These things are a big concern.

If they can find out what’s causing those and give an antibiotic, you could wait until September and get your tests done cheaper.

Hi Finchly,thank you so much for all your help and patience.

I plant to add more sprouts for sure.

I haven't treated for coccidia and,don't think I will as it didn't show up in the parasitology test.

Thank you for reminding me. I feel really frazzled over all these symptoms I worry I will forget to mention something.

I will definitely ask about the availability of other tests such as PCR here,and anything I can use to help them with their symptoms since I don't have confirmation on if it's AGY or aspergillosis right now. Especially as I have heard that Ampho B is quite hard on a budgie. I will ask on their thoughts on sodium benzoate to help,as I currently use apple cider vinegar every now and then.

Thank you for the reassurance. I also need to read more and make another post on how to help weight gain in budgies,as Annabeth is pretty underweight. If they start back showing any serious symptoms,like the bloody poop,seeds and vomitting during the rest of August,I will take them both to get an X-ray privately at the very least.

I'll probably post some more concise questions in here or a separate thread before I email the vet assistant.

 

[Lady Min]

Also, I don’t know what country you’re in, do you have access to Neem tea?

I live in the Caribbean and will definitely have access to Neem leaves and maybe the commercial Neem tea packets.

Is there a certain recipe you have in mind? What are the benefits?

 

[finchly]

Neem is
-antiparasitic
-antibiotic
-antifungal

LIsten, I’m not a vet and yadda yadda. I like natural medicine, I’ve just picked up a few things. Try at your own risk.

This is what I do. I use organic leaves. I put about a handful into my teapot, bring to a boil, then set it off the heat and let steep for an hour. Let it cool and use as the birds’ only source of water. Replace every 24 hours. You can do this 1 day a month, but If I were you I’d try it for 5 to 7 days.

Now. Here’s the caution, and it’s a pretty big one. Some birds won’t drink it, they don’t like the taste. So you need to watch like crazy and be sure they’re drinking the water.

Also, herbal treatments don’t work like other things. They are sometimes slower acting. Don’t expect results in 24 hours like an antibiotic.

 

[Lady Min]

You know, you might save a ton to rule things out if you sent samples to avian biotech. Have you searched there site?

Thank you Macawnutz for the recommendation.

I came across the site before but because I live so far away,I'm not sure if the samples will even be viable by the time they reach the lab. Honestly having birds make me desperately wish I lived in the UK or USA where there seems to be a great availability of avian vets.

We have labs available here,it's just a matter of getting a qualified regular vet/avian vet to collect crop swab samples and submit.

If by September,a new avian vet is not reinstated,I will call back one vet place which I think may possibly be able to do crop swabs and go from there.

Just a question if anyone knows-would a regular fungal culture be able to pick up Avian Gastric Yeast? I think it requires a special stain and technique? I know a reason that it may not have showed up in the fecal test was because it is intermittently shed,but would a regular mycology test not pick it up?

 

[Lady Min]

Neem is
-antiparasitic
-antibiotic
-antifungal

LIsten, I’m not a vet and yadda yadda. I like natural medicine, I’ve just picked up a few things. Try at your own risk.

This is what I do. I use organic leaves. I put about a handful into my teapot, bring to a boil, then set it off the heat and let steep for an hour. Let it cool and use as the birds’ only source of water. Replace every 24 hours. You can do this 1 day a month, but If I were you I’d try it for 5 to 7 days.

Now. Here’s the caution, and it’s a pretty big one. Some birds won’t drink it, they don’t like the taste. So you need to watch like crazy and be sure they’re drinking the water.

Also, herbal treatments don’t work like other things. They are sometimes slower acting. Don’t expect results in 24 hours like an antibiotic.

Thanks Finchly,will try if I get my hand on neem leaves. Neem is safe with birds right?

 

[finchly]

Thanks Finchly,will try if I get my hand on neem leaves. Neem is safe with birds right?

Yes. I use it once monthly with my whole flock. Which is.... hmm... 25 birds?

 

[Lady Min]

There is a lot of info here, so hopefully I cover all the points I wanted to as I read through. Although I'm not a vet I do have experience raising an array of birds from the time they were adorable featherless mutants, caring for rehomes including disabled ones, etc.. so while I can't diagnose your birds I will certainly try to give you as much information as I can.

• Coughing, shortness of breath, and sitting on the bottom of the cage are signs of an upper respiratory tract viral infection.
• Wheezing and/or ceasing to chirp indicates an infestation of air sac mites. Since this one is highly contagious it is likely both birds would be infected, and both would need to be treated.
• Loose droppings, swollen crop, weight loss, and vomiting are signs of a yeast infection. Antibiotics would be needed.
• A combination of difficulty breathing, loose green droppings, and vomiting points to liver disease. If caught early, it can be cured with medication.
• Blood in the droppings can be a sign of internal bleeding or a tumor in the intestines; both of which would need to be treated immediately.

Telling you not to worry won't help, but I will say that you're doing the right thing by taking them to the vet. I would be the most concerned with the possibility of an infestation of air sac mites as it can cause suffocation. The only thing I can suggest is to continue dosing their water with apple cider vinegar while you wait for sufficient results. Good luck and keep us updated.

Thanks BirdLady13! For the advice and for giving your heart to those birds who need a little extra help.

I was wondering if it was an upper or lower respiratory tract infection honestly. But because he's had it for so long,and is still really active and chirpy I wondered if it was some chronic lower respiratory tract condition. However I know only tests will tell. I wonder if an X-ray would help see mucus.

I think yeast infections would require antifungals,yes and I will look into alternatives to help in the meanwhile as you mentioned.

I've read regarding air sac mites that when treating for them,if there is a massive die off,they can block the respiratory tract.When I was treating them several times in the past for air sac mites,I was worried that would happen.But they still have the squeak so I believe it may be something else.Especially since the scaley mites I treated for disappeared.

I'm not sure if an air sac mite blockage would have stayed for years like that though. But again I suppose the only way to know is a crop swab. Not sure if an X-ray would help there.

If I see blood again,I will certainly get an X-ray done earlier. I just need to convince the vets.

Thank you once again.

I'll post some more concise questions regarding aspergillosis or AGY here or in a new thread.

 

[Lady Min]

Yes. I use it once monthly with my whole flock. Which is.... hmm... 25 birds?

Wow that's amazing! I can barely handle 2,I can't imagine the effort to handle 25!

For that size of a flock I bet you must have a great avian vet and lots of experience.

 

[finchly]

Wow that's amazing! I can barely handle 2,I can't imagine the effort to handle 25!

For that size of a flock I bet you must have a great avian vet and lots of experience.

Actually it takes 2 avian vets And I spend every moment, it seems, with them except after 8 pm - they all drop asleep like rocks at 8, thank goodness! Sometimes I even take my computer in the bird room and work. I ask them what they think, and fortunately they always go along with My ideas.

 

[Lady Min]

Actually it takes 2 avian vets And I spend every moment, it seems, with them except after 8 pm - they all drop asleep like rocks at 8, thank goodness! Sometimes I even take my computer in the bird room and work. I ask them what they think, and fortunately they always go along with My ideas.

Wow every moment! That's soooo comforting to hear. I spend pretty much all day thinking or being around my birds and my family thinks I'm a bit crazy.I just wish I could do it without all the anxiety concerning their health though. Which avian vets do you use?

Honestly though I do need to schedule my time better so I can actually study well and be able to support them later haha. Hopefully,I can find a way to cope with all my feelings about it and I'll probably make a thread later.

It's so adorable thinking all 25 of them just falling asleep at 8 like that hahah. I think it's because of your profile pic,but I'm just imagining 25 parrotlets.

I love seeing people's bird rooms! Hope to get one too later on.

 

[finchly]

Here’s one of my Vets. He’s at least 45 minutes away, more when it’s “season”. (Tourist area) But he will do house calls!
The other vet is 30 minutes in the other direction and raises finches. But he’s not always in so sometimes we see the not-avian doctors instead.

You definitely need to study well and get a good job! These guys are NOT cheap!
I mostly have finches, 6 parrotlets 4 cockatiels and 4 parrots. And one budgie.

Forgot to say, hubby helps. We think it’d be impossible with out both of us giving them attention, taking care of vacuuming up seeds or whatever.

Listen, we all talk about feelings depression and anxiety on this board. Everyone can relate. Ill be waiting for your feelings thread.

 

[Lady Min]

Thanks Finchly! I really appreciate all your help