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My Yellow-crowned Amazon won't eat CHOP/GLOOP

Phoe Phoe

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Did you not read this and the associated article by Dr. Sakas? Dr. Sakas was an important and very well thought of veterinarian, before he died from Covid last year.

" Vitamin D3 is required for the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream from the intestinal tract." So that intimates that D2 does not (there are only two types of D of any consequence - D2 and D3.)
https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Calcium-Phosphorus-and-Vitamin-D3-Imbalances.pdf
Nothing wrong with that article. It is your conclusion that is incorrect.

What you posted actually that does NOT “intimate” that d2 doesnt do anything. That is not how the relationship of d2 and d3 works. Also that does NOT answer whether d2 is bioavailable or not.

To continue this conversation, I really need that info confirmed. Otherwise I am going to assume this is another piece for forum logic that should be disregarded. And ask that you stop sharing incorrect info.

So a good source for the bioavailability of d2 for avians, please.
 

Mizzely

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You are free to feed what you like and listen to who you like. :)

I'm not as free on time anymore to go looking for and reading information as I used to. I know the burden of proof is on the one making claims but if you can find any information that supports YOUR claims, I would similarly love to read them! :)

Here's one small blurb from my quick google search:


Gerald F. CombsJr, in The Vitamins (Fourth Edition), 2012



"Most species appear not to discriminate between the vitamers D2 and D3. Studies in humans have demonstrated that each supports comparable plasma 25-OH-D responses, whether given individually or in mixtures Birds, however, are notably unable to utilize vitamin D2, for which reason the D3 vitamer is used in vitamin supplements for poultry diets."
 

Mizzely

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Hankmacaw

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I think that this entire conversation is an exercise in futility, until and unless you (Phoe Phoe) provide some substantiation other than what a veterinarian and a nutritionist have told you. So far you have participated in no way other than that statement and dismissing every bit of evidence put forward to you. How about you showing us something that shows us that all the sources we have quoted are wrong?
 

finchly

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Sheesh guys. I came here for relief from the gardening forum, where my brief blunt (but correct) answer to someone resulted in her calling me a lot of names . :(
So I don’t want to argue. Those white patches on my brain are hurting.
I mean no disrespect and cannot give a source at this moment. But the D2 statement goes against what I found which is hopefully filed in my research. I think D2 actually is able to be converted by avians… I sure hope so. I mean I don’t care but now that I threw it out there I want it to be correct! :laugh:

@Phoe Phoe ill try to round that source up within 24 hours.

I do think the “it doesn’t have D3” argument is way overdone with Tops. But it’s a natural (not heat extruded) food so that is to be expected. Much like vegans and vegetarians have to endure the but-what-about-protein argument.

Look. We’re all getting passionate because we care about our birds and want the best for them. Let’s pool our resources, not push against each other.

I’m mostly into tiny birds but I’ll bet I ve researched as much as anyone when it comes to their nutrition.
 

Elysian

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I know birds are nothing like dogs but when I had my previous dog I was so worried about the right nutrition that I completely bought into the grain free/raw/wolf-like diet scene.
I tried all of the "best" natural foods and my dog was sick all the time. His poop was awful, he had to have his glands cleaned alot, he broke out in hives a couple of times. I tried all of the recommendations to avoid certain allergens. Nothing worked.

Then out of desperation I picked up a simple bag of Iams Proactive kibble.. and everything was suddenly fine. He thrived on that food.
A few years later the studies started coming out about grain free causing heart problems, etc. I was SO glad that I went with the commercial vet-recommended brand for the majority of his life.

Our current dog is on Purina because that seems to work best for him and our vet strongly recommends purina, science diet, royal canin, or iams.. all of the foods I was convinced to avoid by the 'whole and natural' guilt.

Our avian vet recommends harrisons, rowdybush, or Zupreem and our birds do well on Zupreem.

Vets do sometimes get kick backs from certain companies, but when certain foods are continuously rising to the top of the recommended list by multiple practitioners, I feel safer with that than merely public opinion.

The best food is the one that keeps YOUR animal healthy and happy, with good poops, and a variety of nutrients. I see no reason to tamper with what works.
We're never going to be able to accurately reproduce their 'wild and natural' diet.
 

Mizzely

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Yep, feed the animal in front of you. :) The community will never agree what is best. We can science it however we want but what is "ideal" differs based on who you talk to, and more importantly, differs based on the animal you are feeding. It is not a one size fits all. I am glad foods like TOPS exist as it helps people who have issues with mainstream pellets. I am also glad for vets like Dr. Harrison who try to use science to formulate a complete diet.

I've said it before but I'll say it again... Ideal or truth rarely lies at one extreme or another.
 

finchly

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Vets do sometimes get kick backs from certain companies, but when certain foods are continuously rising to the top of the recommended list by multiple practitioners, I feel safer with that than merely public opinion
Well. The manufacturers spend a lot of money on research in most cases. So it’s kind of silly for us to dismiss products out of hand when they actually might know what they’re talking about.

We're never going to be able to accurately reproduce their 'wild and natural' diet.
And even if we did they don’t get enough exercise to burn it off. They’d be chunky little monkeys.
 

Clueless

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Secret will never be chunky......sigh.....
 

Mizzely

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Vets do sometimes get kick backs from certain companies, but when certain foods are continuously rising to the top of the recommended list by multiple practitioners, I feel safer with that than merely public opinion.
I've heard this over and over again but have never actually had it proven that this is true lol. The largest companies in the US (Purina, Eukanuba, Hills, Royal Canin, etc) are doing the most research in this field and so they become foods that vets trust because they can see evidence, they can see studies, etc.

Most vets get into this because of the love of animals. They are not doing it to get rich. Especially when there are so many unknowns, like the whole DCM thing with dogs and grain free... 4 years later from the FDA call-out and we still have no concrete answers! Or birds who we are still learning about, of course they are going to recommend the foods that are well funded and have studies. If they recommend an expensive bougie diet and your animal dies from a related condition, they aren't just going to be like, woops, that sucks. No, most vets cry right along with you when your pet dies.

The only kickback that they get is a bit of peace of mind.

I've also never been told by any of the vets I've used over the years to feed any particular food. I've been given guidelines, but as long as my pet is healthy, my vets have never really cared what I put in their bowl.

Also yeah I tried the expensive "best" diets and my dog went through 4 months of hell until I put him on Iams. He's now doing amazing. :shrug:
 

finchly

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I've heard this over and over again but have never actually had it proven that this is true lol. The largest companies in the US (Purina, Eukanuba, Hills, Royal Canin, etc) are doing the most research in this field and so they become foods that vets trust because they can see evidence, they can see studies, etc.

Most vets get into this because of the love of animals. They are not doing it to get rich. Especially when there are so many unknowns, like the whole DCM thing with dogs and grain free... 4 years later from the FDA call-out and we still have no concrete answers! Or birds who we are still learning about, of course they are going to recommend the foods that are well funded and have studies. If they recommend an expensive bougie diet and your animal dies from a related condition, they aren't just going to be like, woops, that sucks. No, most vets cry right along with you when your pet dies.

The only kickback that they get is a bit of peace of mind.

I've also never been told by any of the vets I've used over the years to feed any particular food. I've been given guidelines, but as long as my pet is healthy, my vets have never really cared what I put in their bowl.

Also yeah I tried the expensive "best" diets and my dog went through 4 months of hell until I put him on Iams. He's now doing amazing. :shrug:
Oh! It is true, MIzzely. I’m surprised you didn’t know. A veterinarian said it. Could *possibly* have been Karen Becker but I am not for sure.
She said when you walk in and you see all the posters, etc. suppporting a certain brand, that’s who is sponsoring your vet. She called it a sponsorship.
I’ll research this, it’s interesting to me. I’d also like to know what, exactly, is being sponsored. Research? Their education? Frankly if it is a well documented research study, I’m all for it. If they pay for veterinary school, that would certainly make the person feel obligated to support their brand.

I don’t recall ever being told by a vet to feed my birds a certain brand. Only one has given me % of pellets/% of seeds. The others just say seeds, pellets, fresh foods. Now, dogs - I definitely have had many recommendations of science diet.

I also liked Iams. Maybe we should go back to that; Cricket has the most awful skin allergies ever.
 

finchly

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I’m going to throw this out there, for what it’s worth. About the D2 and D3.

With my extreme post Covid exhaustion. The new dr. Has me taking a multivitamin and I get B12 shots monthly and take a D2 every 3 days. The B12, meh I can’t tell it has an effect. But the D2 WOW. When I take it I’m excited because I know I’m going to feel good the next day... and I’m in Florida where I’m outdoors 1-3 hours. You’d think the sun would provide enough.

This makes me think our pets really suffer when they are low on something as well.
 

Phoe Phoe

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You are free to feed what you like and listen to who you like. :)

I'm not as free on time anymore to go looking for and reading information as I used to. I know the burden of proof is on the one making claims but if you can find any information that supports YOUR claims, I would similarly love to read them! :)

Here's one small blurb from my quick google search:


Gerald F. CombsJr, in The Vitamins (Fourth Edition), 2012



"Most species appear not to discriminate between the vitamers D2 and D3. Studies in humans have demonstrated that each supports comparable plasma 25-OH-D responses, whether given individually or in mixtures Birds, however, are notably unable to utilize vitamin D2, for which reason the D3 vitamer is used in vitamin supplements for poultry diets."
This citation I can accept. The hesitation with this would be the general lack of context (and specific to poultry, and rather dated) but it is a trustworthy source. I am willing to take this as a tentative true assumption and move on to the next point of issue:

If with the two assumptions: 1) taking into assumption it is true that parrots cannot utilize d2- as in 0.0% utilization (based on the dated and general context literature shown above on poultry, not parrots), and 2) no parrot has shown signs of vitamin d deficiency on a TOPS only diet (as reported by my vet and a nutritionist)

and also a tentative third assumption that 3) there is no difference between the supplementation of natural d2 vs synthetic (all the literature I am seeing is on the synthetic— why? Because farming poultry indoors probably)

Then the assumption is that plants can contain vitamin d3 in levels that prevent deficiency in parrots.

Tentatively looked into this assumption. It appears that: 1) vitamin d3 currently is considered to be contained in the leaves of plants. 2) That certain herbivores have historically presented with vitamin d3 OVERDOSE due to vitamin d3 presence in plants. 3) more research is being done as we speak about plants as a d3 source.

this means that it is -possible- to put enough d3 in a pellet without synthetic supplementation (especially in a green leafy pellet such as TOPs). And that the assertion from handmacaw that d2 comes from plants and d3 only comes in nonnegligible amounts from animals is too general to be correct in the context of feeding parrots enough d3.

Quick search yields these top two sources (worth looking at) on google:



I will be contacting TOPS and exploring this issue further. It is becoming very interesting.
 

Phoe Phoe

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I think that this entire conversation is an exercise in futility, until and unless you (Phoe Phoe) provide some substantiation other than what a veterinarian and a nutritionist have told you. So far you have participated in no way other than that statement and dismissing every bit of evidence put forward to you. How about you showing us something that shows us that all the sources we have quoted are wrong?
Sorry to hear you feel that way. On the contrary I am getting a lot of useful information and points of further from this.

When someone says something that is outside of my expertise that goes against my training, it is dubious but worth exploration.

With the right sources.

When that also SEEMS to go against what experts have said, perhaps it really warrants more research.

Using the right sources

On the rare occasion that the dubious thing is right, then we rehash our assumptions, which opens up exploration for even more points.

Delicious. With the right sources.

In this case I never would have leanred about animals overdosing on d3 in plants if not for:

The right sources

Rejecting blog posts without citation and hearsay is good practice. Where I come from, it is standard practice.

Expert opinion > uncited blog post

In other words: Use the right sources
 
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