My amazon does not really play with toys (yet) but I'm getting him to be a bit more active by hiding his favorite treats in 4-5 different kinds of foraging toys.
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My Yellow-crowned Amazon won't eat CHOP/GLOOP
- Thread starter AlexGrayBird
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Mizzely
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I'm honestly surprised parrots consume anything based on the amount of waste they produce while eating 
Clueless
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I have fun when I'm eating too...... what's a meal without wearing some of it?I'm honestly surprised parrots consume anything based on the amount of waste they produce while eating
tka
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Mine's actually a ceramic dog bowl tooYou make a really good point here. Thanks. The bowl I use for my parrots water is actually a ceramic dog food bowl. I do think I am putting way to much water in the bowls. So, I can just put less water in the bowls, or like you said use a small shallow bowl. Thanks for your input!
I only fill it about an inch - plenty of water for a small-to-medium parrot and she can retrieve what she drops in there. She still dunks like a champion but the water stays much cleaner and not a disgusting pellet soup.
AlexGrayBird
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Read the article from internationally known parrot expert Sally Blanchard, "Pelleted Diets, Veterinarians, and the idiot factor" on her website, Sallyblanchard.com
I prefer my articles with facts and less ranting
I do agree that tops is the best pellet. As does my veterinarian. But you do you.
Hankmacaw
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Sally Blanchard is a fine parrot behaviorist, but she is lacking as a scientist and I'll bet (knowing Sally) that she cannot back up many, if any, of her rants with sound research and substantiation. Please note that her educational background is in art and not bio-chemistry. Big Difference.
PS - Tops is ok, I guess, but you should be aware that it is lacking in Vitamin D3, which is only available in animal meats. It is not available in any flora and must be supplemented if you feed only tops.
PPS - She said nothing about pellets being too high in protein.
PS - Tops is ok, I guess, but you should be aware that it is lacking in Vitamin D3, which is only available in animal meats. It is not available in any flora and must be supplemented if you feed only tops.
PPS - She said nothing about pellets being too high in protein.
AlexGrayBird
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AlexGrayBird
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PS ----- I don't feed Tops pellets to my parrots.
I’d like to see this article. Please make it an informative one this time.
The tops and lacking d3 thing seems often repeated on this forum. I looked into it. It is technically true but d3 is not the only form of vit d. I am not a vet and not an avian nutritionalist but my understanding from consulting both is that tops does cover the vit d requirement without d3. Which is fine by me as d3 is the toxic form of vit d. And we do NOT have the research that substantiates the RDA values in parrots.
Zara
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Mizzely
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You're right that we don't know the RDA. We have good ideas through from poultry studies as well as parrot feeding trials.
Vitamin D is potentially toxic in all forms as it is fat soluble, meaning any excess is stored in the body instead of getting excreted. D3 is what is manufactured by the skin using sunlight. Almost all parrots are equatorial or near equatorial, meaning they would have evolved to be in the sun 10 to 12 hours a day year round.
You cannot overdose on the sun, but you can overdose D3, regardless if is natural or synthetic.
TOPS does not claim to have NO D3. They choose to supplement it at very low levels through Alfalfa and Seaweed which might work fine for some parrots.
D3 in Alfalfa: The isolation and identification of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 from Medicago sativa (alfalfa plant) - PubMed
The only seaweeds they list are purple dulse and kelp. All of the D3 supplements I found that contained kelp were using the kelp for iodine.
I have looked at several websites and "kelp" contains 0 iu of D3. I could not find any for information for purple dulse.
Risks and benefits of consuming edible seaweeds
Recent interest in seaweeds as a source of macronutrients, micronutrients, and bioactive components has highlighted prospective applications within the functional food and nutraceutical industries, with impetus toward the alleviation of risk factors associated ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
It is important to note that some vegetable sources contain D2, which we believe is of little to no use to parrots.
Vitamin D3 - Lady Gouldian Finch Supplies USA - Glamorous Gouldians
"Vitamin D in Cage Bird Nutrition - There are a variety of symptoms of vitamin D deficiency in cage birds, most of them related to calcium. In addition to the soft bones of rickets, in birds thin-shelled and soft-shelled eggs will be a prominent symptom. Clutches that are smaller than normal...
ladygouldianfinch.com
Some algaes and seaweeds have been shown to be GI irritants in cats, dogs, and people, so I hesitate to feed it.
Carrageenan: Safety, risks, and uses
Carrageenan is a controversial food additive. It is FDA-approved, but some scientists believe that it can cause inflammation, bowel disorders, and even certain cancers. In this article, we look at the research behind carrageenan, including its possible side effects, dangers, uses, and common...
www.medicalnewstoday.com
Now I am not against TOPS. I think it is nice to have options for our birds. I don't like that they use alfalfa as the main binder as I think THAT is a filler for anything except grass eating species like rabbits and guinea pigs, but otherwise its fine as long as people understand that the amount of D3 in it is likely not sufficient for most birds that are kept indoors a significant amount of the day year round.
There is some misinformation here as well as a lot of irrelevant info. Lets start with those studies. Can you link the studies stating that they know the rda values for poultry and the “parrot feeding trials”?You're right that we don't know the RDA. We have good ideas through from poultry studies as well as parrot feeding trials.
Vitamin D is potentially toxic in all forms as it is fat soluble, meaning any excess is stored in the body instead of getting excreted. D3 is what is manufactured by the skin using sunlight. Almost all parrots are equatorial or near equatorial, meaning they would have evolved to be in the sun 10 to 12 hours a day year round.
You cannot overdose on the sun, but you can overdose D3, regardless if is natural or synthetic.
TOPS does not claim to have NO D3. They choose to supplement it at very low levels through Alfalfa and Seaweed which might work fine for some parrots.
D3 in Alfalfa: The isolation and identification of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 from Medicago sativa (alfalfa plant) - PubMed
The only seaweeds they list are purple dulse and kelp. All of the D3 supplements I found that contained kelp were using the kelp for iodine.
I have looked at several websites and "kelp" contains 0 iu of D3. I could not find any for information for purple dulse.
Risks and benefits of consuming edible seaweeds
Recent interest in seaweeds as a source of macronutrients, micronutrients, and bioactive components has highlighted prospective applications within the functional food and nutraceutical industries, with impetus toward the alleviation of risk factors associated ...
It is important to note that some vegetable sources contain D2, which we believe is of little to no use to parrots.
Vitamin D3 - Lady Gouldian Finch Supplies USA - Glamorous Gouldians
"Vitamin D in Cage Bird Nutrition - There are a variety of symptoms of vitamin D deficiency in cage birds, most of them related to calcium. In addition to the soft bones of rickets, in birds thin-shelled and soft-shelled eggs will be a prominent symptom. Clutches that are smaller than normal...
Some algaes and seaweeds have been shown to be GI irritants in cats, dogs, and people, so I hesitate to feed it.
.Carrageenan: Safety, risks, and uses
Carrageenan is a controversial food additive. It is FDA-approved, but some scientists believe that it can cause inflammation, bowel disorders, and even certain cancers. In this article, we look at the research behind carrageenan, including its possible side effects, dangers, uses, and common...
Now I am not against TOPS. I think it is nice to have options for our birds. I don't like that they use alfalfa as the main binder as I think THAT is a filler for anything except grass eating species like rabbits and guinea pigs, but otherwise its fine as long as people understand that the amount of D3 in it is likely not sufficient for most birds that are kept indoors a significant amount of the day year round.
I would also like to see something besides a blog stating that d2 is not bioavailable to parrots. I have heard that before, then also heard the opposite so at this point there is a lot saying a lot of things.You're right that we don't know the RDA. We have good ideas through from poultry studies as well as parrot feeding trials.
Vitamin D is potentially toxic in all forms as it is fat soluble, meaning any excess is stored in the body instead of getting excreted. D3 is what is manufactured by the skin using sunlight. Almost all parrots are equatorial or near equatorial, meaning they would have evolved to be in the sun 10 to 12 hours a day year round.
You cannot overdose on the sun, but you can overdose D3, regardless if is natural or synthetic.
TOPS does not claim to have NO D3. They choose to supplement it at very low levels through Alfalfa and Seaweed which might work fine for some parrots.
D3 in Alfalfa: The isolation and identification of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 from Medicago sativa (alfalfa plant) - PubMed
The only seaweeds they list are purple dulse and kelp. All of the D3 supplements I found that contained kelp were using the kelp for iodine.
I have looked at several websites and "kelp" contains 0 iu of D3. I could not find any for information for purple dulse.
Risks and benefits of consuming edible seaweeds
Recent interest in seaweeds as a source of macronutrients, micronutrients, and bioactive components has highlighted prospective applications within the functional food and nutraceutical industries, with impetus toward the alleviation of risk factors associated ...
It is important to note that some vegetable sources contain D2, which we believe is of little to no use to parrots.
Vitamin D3 - Lady Gouldian Finch Supplies USA - Glamorous Gouldians
"Vitamin D in Cage Bird Nutrition - There are a variety of symptoms of vitamin D deficiency in cage birds, most of them related to calcium. In addition to the soft bones of rickets, in birds thin-shelled and soft-shelled eggs will be a prominent symptom. Clutches that are smaller than normal...
Some algaes and seaweeds have been shown to be GI irritants in cats, dogs, and people, so I hesitate to feed it.
.Carrageenan: Safety, risks, and uses
Carrageenan is a controversial food additive. It is FDA-approved, but some scientists believe that it can cause inflammation, bowel disorders, and even certain cancers. In this article, we look at the research behind carrageenan, including its possible side effects, dangers, uses, and common...
Now I am not against TOPS. I think it is nice to have options for our birds. I don't like that they use alfalfa as the main binder as I think THAT is a filler for anything except grass eating species like rabbits and guinea pigs, but otherwise its fine as long as people understand that the amount of D3 in it is likely not sufficient for most birds that are kept indoors a significant amount of the day year round.
Seaweed is not the same as carrageenan. Assuming as isolated compound acts the same as the compound from which it was isolated is a mistake.
Do keep in mind I have an advanced degree in health; just throwing out things that “sound right” is not going to fly with me.
Hankmacaw
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As always, thanks @Mizzely . I read your excellent article and was still struggling with what I wanted to post here. In the meantime here is a statement from Dr. Sakas' article on calcium and D3, that I feel is pertinent.
" Vitamin D3 is required for the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream from the intestinal tract." So that intimates that D2 does not (there are only two types of D of any consequence - D2 and D3.)
From Mizzely's article;
"For more reading about this subject, including some of my references:
Calcium metabolism in grey parrots: the effects of husbandry.
Lighting, Diet, And D3
Vitamin D and Ultraviolet B Radiation Considerations for Exotic Pets
Vitamin D in Caged Bird Nutrition
They All Need Vitamin D
The isolation and identification of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 from Medicago sativa (alfalfa plant)
Is carrageenan safe to eat?
Risks and benefits of consuming edible seaweeds"
" Vitamin D3 is required for the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream from the intestinal tract." So that intimates that D2 does not (there are only two types of D of any consequence - D2 and D3.)
@Phoe Phoe - That was uncalled for, most especially since Mizzely's article was researched and her references noted.
From Mizzely's article;
"For more reading about this subject, including some of my references:
Calcium metabolism in grey parrots: the effects of husbandry.
Lighting, Diet, And D3
Vitamin D and Ultraviolet B Radiation Considerations for Exotic Pets
Vitamin D in Caged Bird Nutrition
They All Need Vitamin D
The isolation and identification of vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 from Medicago sativa (alfalfa plant)
Is carrageenan safe to eat?
Risks and benefits of consuming edible seaweeds"
To have this conversation I need something confirming that d2 is NOT bioavailable to parrots. Parrots are not my area of expertise.
I am willing to have this conversation. But I am well read in health related issues. Which I am finding is atypical of online forums, and thus posted as what I had hoped was something that would keep the discussion to a certain level. I do not think you need an advanced degree to have a plausible conversation. But if the fact that I have is going to cause a knee jerk reaction and defensiveness instead of productivity, this is not going to work.
I am entertaining this at all because this info refutes the knowledge from an avian vet and an avian nutritionist. I am happy to accept that they are wrong—with the right sources.
I every source posted and asked for more for reasons stated above. Posting the same ones is not of value to me.
I am willing to have this conversation. But I am well read in health related issues. Which I am finding is atypical of online forums, and thus posted as what I had hoped was something that would keep the discussion to a certain level. I do not think you need an advanced degree to have a plausible conversation. But if the fact that I have is going to cause a knee jerk reaction and defensiveness instead of productivity, this is not going to work.
I am entertaining this at all because this info refutes the knowledge from an avian vet and an avian nutritionist. I am happy to accept that they are wrong—with the right sources.
I every source posted and asked for more for reasons stated above. Posting the same ones is not of value to me.
Last edited:
Hankmacaw
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Did you not read this and the associated article by Dr. Sakas? Dr. Sakas was an important and very well thought of veterinarian, before he died from Covid last year.
" Vitamin D3 is required for the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream from the intestinal tract." So that intimates that D2 does not (there are only two types of D of any consequence - D2 and D3.)
https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Calcium-Phosphorus-and-Vitamin-D3-Imbalances.pdf
" Vitamin D3 is required for the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream from the intestinal tract." So that intimates that D2 does not (there are only two types of D of any consequence - D2 and D3.)
https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Calcium-Phosphorus-and-Vitamin-D3-Imbalances.pdf
