Hand Phobia Blue Front/ questions

[Loomish]

Hello,

My Amazon Athena is 6 months old, so got her about 2 months ago from a exotic only very reputable pet shop.

I have moved very slow with her, she now loves coming to work with me, and car rides. She also gives kisses, and loves to start yelling and laughing when I hide on the side of her cage. She will take food from my hand, and step up off the ground ASAP or any flat surface.

I know it is bad to let her on my shoulder, but that is where she goes when with only me because she will go behind my head and snuggle my neck, when around people she stays on my arm, and doesn't mind it (flys off sometimes)

The only issue I am having with her is anytime she is perched anywhere, on her cage, on her perch at the office, at home, on my shoulder, arm or someone else's arm she will not step up, she will only growl and nip, she won't break my skin but she will to others. The owner used to be able to pet her behind the head, and all over, but she won't allow any of that for me. She loves when I rub my head against her while on my shoulder, she starts purring like a cat!

How do I train that away, I can't find anything specific? Will it always be that way?

Also, how many times should she be fed a day?

Should I lower her cage so I am higher than the highest perch?

I do understand her body language quite well (natural first with animals)

When she does bite, how do I punish that, I never yell or anything, I fist my hand so she can't nip skin and it works well she eventually gives up and just growls!

Any help is appreciated, I am very stubborn and so is she apparently, but she makes me late to work too much!

 

[sunnysmom]

Welcome to the forum! The whole height/dominance thing is really a myth. I wouldn't worry about lowering her cage. As for letting a bird on your shoulder, it's not bad to do so depending on the bird. My tiel was always on my shoulder but it's because I trusted him not to bite me. People say not to put a bird on your shoulder because of the danger of a bite to the face. Many of our members here let their birds on their shoulders - if they trust them to be there.

I don't have Amazon experience and others will be able to answer your other questions better than me. I will say however, that your baby bird, is growing up, and probably testing her independence/boundaries a bit. And positive reinforcement works way better than punishment. : )

 

[Niran Jay]

From what I know about amazons , they are typically very nippy and full of attitude. A lot of people who own amazon parrots give them up because they bite. If you want to train her not to bite, it's going to take time and a heap of effort. One technique is put her on you arm and try to get her to step up without biting. Keep trying until she either stops biting, or steps up. When she does this, reward her with food, millet, a favorite treat etc.
One of my birds was like this, never grew out of it so I grew tougher skin on my hand
Also, if she had a previous owner she was comfortable with it means she trusted them. Seeing as you got her only a few months ago she may not entirely trust you yet. Birds are extremely protective of their heads, back and tails because they can't see behind them unless they turn their heads. Out of all the birds I've hand reared, only one or two have allowed me to pet them on their backs and faces. Punishment never worked for my birds, if anything it kills any trust they have and makes them negative towards the source .
As far as feeding goes, I don't know much about the diet of an amazon. I usually just put enough food to last the day in my birds cage with fruits and vegetables.
Keep trying, training always takes a lot of late days and long sessions

 

[Loomish]

From what I know about amazons , they are typically very nippy and full of attitude. A lot of people who own amazon parrots give them up because they bite. If you want to train her not to bite, it's going to take time and a heap of effort. One technique is put her on you arm and try to get her to step up without biting. Keep trying until she either stops biting, or steps up. When she does this, reward her with food, millet, a favorite treat etc.
One of my birds was like this, never grew out of it so I grew tougher skin on my hand
Also, if she had a previous owner she was comfortable with it means she trusted them. Seeing as you got her only a few months ago she may not entirely trust you yet. Birds are extremely protective of their heads, back and tails because they can't see behind them unless they turn their heads. Out of all the birds I've hand reared, only one or two have allowed me to pet them on their backs and faces. Punishment never worked for my birds, if anything it kills any trust they have and makes them negative towards the source .
As far as feeding goes, I don't know much about the diet of an amazon. I usually just put enough food to last the day in my birds cage with fruits and vegetables.
Keep trying, training always takes a lot of late days and long sessions

Awesome thank you, she never bites other than the step up from perch position when it isn't a flat surface, hopefully she grows out of it because if not, she is stuck with me, and probably a sibling if she doesn't give in

 

[Niran Jay]

Well she seems to be in good hands, so im sure you'll figure it out.

 

[Loomish]

I figured out if she is on her cage, and I dip my head below the cage and move side to side, her eyes pin and flare and she ruffles up and starts going bonkers, it's hilarious, I have no idea where she learned the super creepy hello she just said

 

[Peppo]

I figured out if she is on her cage, and I dip my head below the cage and move side to side, her eyes pin and flare and she ruffles up and starts going bonkers, it's hilarious, I have no idea where she learned the super creepy hello she just said

Be careful because that also sounds like the Amazon attack dance. Google it just that way, you will find it. Sometimes hard to decipher between excited and attack mode.
I don't think all amazons can be labeled nippy, it's all in the relationship you have and thier upbringing. She is so young, establish trust first. Good luck!

 

[Niran Jay]

Birds are weird sometimes. They told me I couldn't tame a finch, my finch now comes on walks with me outside in the summer and winter. One time I played dead in front of him, and he looked like he got all nervous and flew down onto my chest . So yeah, birds are weird. But that's really funny of your parrot actually.

 

[Niran Jay]

Be careful because that also sounds like the Amazon attack dance. Google it just that way, you will find it. Sometimes hard to decipher between excited and attack mode.
I don't think all amazons can be labeled nippy, it's all in the relationship you have and thier upbringing. She is so young, establish trust first. Good luck!

Agreed , but most of them are because of the way they were raised. I've seldom heard or seen of an amazon that doesn't bite now and again.

 

[Calpurnia]

How do I train that away, I can't find anything specific? Will it always be that way?

Also, how many times should she be fed a day?

Should I lower her cage so I am higher than the highest perch?

I do understand her body language quite well (natural first with animals)

When she does bite, how do I punish that, I never yell or anything, I fist my hand so she can't nip skin and it works well she eventually gives up and just growls!

Welcome! Sounds like you have quite a character on your hands! To answer your simpler questions, she should have some food available at all times. If you are traveling around all the time it may make sense to feed her fresh foods in the morning and evening then leave her pellets during the day. Like @sunnysmom mentioned, height dominance is a myth. I also agree with sunny that with any bird punishment is not the answer!

There are two ways to react to a behavior: preemptively and retrospectively. The biggest difference between the two is how easily each of your reactions reinforces a behavior.

If you acting preemptively you are identifying or predicting a behavior before it occurs. In doing so you can then try to prevent the behavior. Acting retrospectively on the other hand means that the behaviors occurs and only then do you try to prevent it. But the simple act of performing the behavior can already reinforce it. Not to mention it can be difficult if not impossible to not react unconsciously to painful behaviors like biting or screaming. Of course these subconscious reactions absolutely can act as reinforcers. In addition, only with retrospective reactions are you given the option of positive punishment. And this type of punishment is not recommended with parrots because it risks creating negative side-effects. For example, punishing your bird for biting by spraying it with water can cause it to fear water in general. Punishing them by creating an "earthquake" with your hand can cause them to distrust your limbs as "perches". Hitting or other physical force can lead to increased aggression or lashing out from fear or pain. This is why reputable animal trainers tend to recommend positive reinforcement only; it has no risk of negative side effects and if used correctly can be extremely effective as a training tool.

So it should be obvious that one type of reaction is preferable over the other. If you react preemptively you can utilize the full potential of positive reinforcement. For example, instead of just demanding Athena step up why not use a favorite treat to lure her onto your hand? With enough practice she will soon start associating stepping up with tasty treats.

Or why not just AVOID the bites all together? Biting can encourage biting, just like aggression can encourage aggression. The more you sit there and let her bite you (or put your hand in her face which obviously only incites her and puts your hand in striking range), the more she is going to learn that biting is an acceptable way of communicating displeasure. Why worry about breaking a biting habit if you can make a effort to prevent one from forming instead?

I think using treats as bribes and rewards for good step-up behavior is the best course of action now. You might even consider practicing first on a flat surface (since she seems to be okay with that) so she starts getting used to the routine of step-up treat, step-up treat. Let her establish some muscle memory then shift to a different type of perch. If she also bites when you try to take her down from your shoulder, etc use a perch or t-stand to get her down instead. Remember to continue to reward good behavior whenever possible.

 

[aooratrix]

Other people have talked about her behavior, so I'll address the shoulder and diet. My DYA, Morgan, is VERY laid back: I can touch her anywhere and even rub her tongue. She's only bitten me twice in 21 years, and each time was because I foolishly allowed someone she didn't care for to try to step her up. I find Morgan to be extremely trustworthy; however, I would never allow her on my shoulder. Period.

I am currently feeding Zupreem Natural and offer her about 2 tablespoons in the morning. In the afternoon, she gets 3-4 Caitec OFBs. If she seems hungry and is a clean-plater, I might offer some Harrison's or Higgins InTune before dinner. Dinner is served at 6 and is chop or some kind of fresh food. She gets one almond on Sunday and no seed. Her weight is good, too; her avian vet complimented me on not having an overweight Amazon.

 

[Clueless]

I have two amazons but I wouldn't allow mine on my shoulder (body parts are fragile up there).

Try giving a desirable treat when the parrot steps up and when the parrot steps OFF your hand. Both are important. I also treat when mine go back in the cages and I have no problem returning them to cages.

If you're having issues getting the parrot off your shoulder now, you may want to reconsider until after the parrot learns to follow your requests.

Positive reinforcement is the best.

Check out Barbara Heidenreich for training. She is an awesome lady (and even owns her own Amazon!).

 

[Peppo]

I agree 100% with the no shoulder rule. Paco is very sweet and gentle with me but he will displacement bite if he sees danger or is someone else gets too close to me that he doesn't like. You can't avoid the bite from that position. He still tries to get up there occasionally but I remove him, kiss him on the head and remind him that we don't do that.

 

[Monica]

You'll find a lot of great info in this thread that I put together.

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