Clipping or Not??????

[Artagiel]

The way I see things is people will do what they need to make the birds safe from themselves. Humans are not birds, we are lumbering, we play with dangerous things and as much as our birds may love us and us them things happen, doors get left open, wires left in an area that might appeal to an inquisitive beak, stoves used, feet not minded and one heavy foot on a delicate feathered body could be the end of a beautiful life.

I at first kept Noodle clipped because I was living in a place where I could not be in control of the environment and could not keep her safe if she were to have the freedom she was born to have, I did what I had to to make her safe from me, my roomates, the dog and the lit cigarettes that were left about. I got my own apartment and now all my birds are able to fly freely and are caged only when I am doing something possibly harmful to them if they were to land nearby like on a hot stove, on the bed when I am asleep or vacuuming (I am terrified they will land in front of my vacuum someday. I am a really paranoid bird mom).

I love having them fly where they want, I wouldn't want to take that away from them BUT I agree each situation is different and above all else the safety of the bird must come first. Just because I have the ability to make sure doors are not opened in the house and have no other animals that might pose a threat does not mean I am better than anyone else, just that I have a life that is able to accomodate that situation for my pets and I am lucky and happy to do so. What matters the most is that we look at our lives and make a choice as to how much we can do to keep our birds happy and healthy for as long as possible. If you can do that and make a way to let your birds fly, awesome! If not thank you for doing your best to keep your delicate friend as safe as possible.

Either way, we should do what we can to enrich the lives of our feathered babies, with all they give us and teach us we owe it to them. Research and make your own decisions and always do what is right for both you and them.

 

[thejoie]

I was all for unclipped birds until I brought Summer home.

Mia was clipped too early and didn't know how to fly and now she does and ONLY does it in an emergency. Having her not clipped is absolutely fine because even when she does fly.. she's 148 grams....

Gus is clipped because I needed to see how he's going to fit in with everything.. if he's a trouble maker then he'd need to stay clipped for his safety. I believe in his next molt- we're going to see how he is with flight.
The little guys.. well.. the parakeets are unclipped but they don't come out of their flight cage and since they do have a flight cage- sure why not!!
The cockatiels are clipped because they sometimes come out of the flight cage and I wouldn't want them to fly to Mia or Summer and get hurt.

Summer... ohhh Summer... she is 1000 grams. And my house's floor plan is just NOT open enough for her to have flight. Maybe if I lived in a ranch but my 2500 square feet, two story house.. the rooms are just not big enough. Especially for a misbehaving baby macaw. She knows HOW to fly.. believe me!!! I watched her do it!! I let her master it and it was one of the hardest decisions I had to make. But after her foot injury... I decided to get her wings clipped. She is STILL a good flier. She can glide off her stand with no problems! But I can't have her getting hurt!
Will I try it again with her? Maybe... I hope that with age she mellows down. When she was a baby I couldn't go from my kitchen to the family room (literally same room just a step lower) without her freaking out, flying after me, and crashing into something. I would LOVE to have more of an open area for her.. but that's impossible. But I'll definitely let her try again just NOT when she's a baby!!!

 

[jim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
But to suggest that it has nothing to do with the needs of my birds? Well, let me just say I strongly disagree.

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I dont understand this. Arent you saying your bird needs to be clipped? Their needs are: health excersize that motivated their entire body (flight, no walking or just regular flapping cuts it), psychologically and physically. Mentally and physically, they NEED to be able to fly.

Did you know that land birds, who are meant to run/walk,etc, have MASSIVE leg muscles and their body is geared to run(how their organs are placed, and bone structure, etc)? Same thing for a bird how is meant to fly.

Birds who need to fly NEED to fly. Nature wouldnt have created them to have flight feathers otherwise

Can you tell us how you birds need to be clipped, how it is a PRO for their mental health, physical health, and overall well being vs a bird who is flighted?

A bird who is flighted, sure it can fly around and possibly get out doors by the negligent bird owner(I will admit my family WAS pretty negligent, we almost lost Tiki(quaker)) twice to the great outdoors. But we have definetly imrpoved out tactics to prevent that. And did you know a clipped bird can just as well fly outdoors and your less likely to get him/her back?

A clipped bird can fly into the toilet too! Just like a flighted one. But it cant get out vs a biord who knows how to fly and will typically avoid the toilet bathroom(which has me saying, why not shut the bathroom door?)

A flighted bird will typically avoid a hot pot of water on the stove vs a clipped bird. A clipped bird will accidently land in it..gravity of course.

A flighted bird typically will get away from the cat/dog, a clipped bird is land bound and unable to.

A bird who can fly and KNOWS 100% how to FLY, will typically be a much safer bird vs a clipped bird.

I see way too many cons for clipping. If you are very vigilant and responsible, you should be able to maintain your household and live comfortably with a flighted bird.

the safety of my birds, as well as those in my home ARE my concerns. That is exactly what I am saying there.
As divorce is out of the question extreme caution is needed with Zoey. When flighted, as I said before, she attacks my wife. That is not ok. Flaying arms can kill Zoey, or getting thrown out of anger. Not by me.
Sophie just doesn't care that there is a window there. lol
For now these two are clipped. We will see how things go after the next molt. I am pro flight. Not an extremest as many are, at least not in the same way. Yes a bedroom is a prison, just like clipping, yes any sized aviary no matter how wonderful, is still a prison. A cage is a cage.

My beliefs in this matter have changed a lot in the mere 5 years I have had the honor of my parrots companionship.
When I got Zoey I was surprised that they lady wanted to clip her. When the vet agreed wholeheartedly, I figured maybe there was something to this.
Sophie's breeder had the same opinion. Adamantly.
I just figured loosing one's birds was a fact of owning them. Flying away due to not paying attention that one instant that it takes.
Zoey, my Senegal, would not fledge. She would not use her wings for anything other brakes. Until the crow incident. First time ever flying she straight up out flew two crows to the point they collided with each other.
I saw Sophie fly out away from on her was to get clipped and it was awesome. I watched her do her thing up there and was happy. Even knowing the likely hood she was lost to me.
She landed on a fence and waited for me to come get her. Bless her heart.
What worries me about their escape is there are no food bowls out there. Not to mention the complete lack of enrichment toys!!
So, now that I am way off base..................
I do believe birds should fly free. I do carry a burden of guilt for keeping these creatures captive. I didn't have that five years ago. Part of me believes that same burden of guilt is why many are so passionate about doing what they can to let their lives be "like in the wild".


Oh, and I absolutely agree with JL and Toasty Buns that I clip human convenience.

 

[Birdlover]

Just for the sake of discussion, what are some of the things you all have done to keep your flighted birds safe? For me I have to have them out seperately - none of my four house birds like each other Cyan would like to eat any of them for lunch (especially Cash ). So this means because I want to leave them flighted, I have to have three in their cage while one is out. Typically i take the one I have out to a separate room so there are no concerns for landing on a cage getting toes bit and just generally agitating the other birds. I also have the areas I allow them to fly safe - blinds drawn over windows and no ceiling fans, etc. Also, they are closed off from even having the chance of flying out the door should my DH come in when they are out.

Its not easy and maybe they miss out on other things (but I still wouldnt have them out at the same time, even if clipped), but I feel that the trade-off is worth it to keep them flighted. Wish I had a bigger house so they had more flight area

Ive really enjoyed reading this thread and feel everyone has good points to offer. I hadnt really considered "clipped" vs "trimmed" - its interesting to think about as a middle ground for certain situations (though Im still keeping my promise to my guys not to clip a single feather). I dont think its "cruel" or look down on anyone for doing it to their birds for their situation, I just wont do it to mine because I have the ability to make the necessary changes to keep them full flight.

 

[birdman78]

Good question Jill. I would love to know too.

 

[Quiverful]

Most of my birds are flighted. I usually keep the Budgies trimmed so the kids can handle them easier. Plus, it's REALLY hard to catch a fully flighted Budgie when they don't want to be caught They are able to glide and can fly across the room..they just don't get altitude. I also trim my Dove because she'll fly to the highest point, and in my house, that is really high..we'd never get her without an extension ladder...LOL

All my other birds are flighted. I enjoy watching then fly and love the sound of a bird lifting off.

BUT, I completely respect others who decide to clip their birds. Everyone's situation is different and we each have to make the decision we feel is best for us and our birds.

As to the comments made about kids...well, obviously you don't have any...LOLOLOL I have 5 kids and they're good kids and love and respect the animals. But, they are kids..not perfect..and accidents happen. Heck, even adults make mistakes and we all know it only takes a second for tragedy to occur. So, it's wrong to assume that children can be made "perfect" and never make a mistake with the door.

It's great if birds can fly. But, I would rather a bird be clipped and have a great life with plenty of out of cage time and interaction. Instead of someone who proudly announces their bird is not clipped but on further questioning, it's discovered that the bird gets very little time out of cage because having the flighted bird gets into too much trouble. Now, I am NOT saying anyone here is like that, but I have read about numerous people that are.

 

[Quiverful]

Jill-I cannot let ALL 15 of my birds out at the same time. Some can be out together and others cannot. We rotate..LOL

I make sure ceiling fans are off and everyone knows birds are out. I am fortunate in that my front door is far away from my main living area where the birds are. They pretty much stay in the maim area unless I walk out and then sometimes one or two will fly with me. So, they don't even see if the front door opens.

I do have sliders off the mian living area, but that door is not regularly opened and when the birds are out, everyone knows and I make sure no one opens that door.

I don't let them fly around the kitchen if I'm cooking. Even if it means they have to go away. I'd rather them be in their cage than in a pot of boiling water!

My windows all have panes in them and miniblinds so the birds don't fly into them. My sliders have panes, as well. I haven't had any trouble with anyone flying into them. I can also pull the curtain across if I'm worried about it.

 

[Bokkapooh]

. When she was a baby I couldn't go from my kitchen to the family room (literally same room just a step lower) without her freaking out, flying after me, and crashing into something. [/QUOTE]

Sounds like she didnt know how to FULLY fly. Understanding how to manuever and turn without crashing. My scarlet macaw, who was 1025 and a BIG girl, she could fly easily between my mom's tiny house. My moms house is only 1200sq ft! MUCH smaller than your house. And she could fly between the 32" door ways, and the small 3.5ft wide hallway,etc. It took Gra half a yar to fully get into her wings and fully know how to fly.

 

[birdman78]

I thought of another question. For those that have flighted birds and ceiling fans, has there been any issue with the chains that hang down and the birds?

 

[Quiverful]

I thought of another question. For those that have flighted birds and ceiling fans, has there been any issue with the chains that hang down and the birds?

Mine do not have any chains. All of mine are switched. Hubby is an electrician I can adjust the lights, on dimmers, and the fan speeds all from the switch.

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

the only safe room is my bird room and as I said in my previous post I rotate taking all other birds out if need some times I let Percy out in the other room with the door locked but he no longer flies much unless startled

 

[thejoie]

the problem here is that my ceiling does weird things... as do the walls, some extend a bit.. some have a "pillar-y" thing to them.. so she's always get stuck on that... she'd be going round a corner and smash into the "tricky" parts... and there are just too many of them here. Not to mention when she crashed into the fish tank once (we have 4 down here) and almost brought that thing down... wow.. would that have been a fun explanation to Jeremy!!!

When Mia is downstairs, I ALWAYS keep the door to the sun room closed, that way if my boyfriend is outside with the dogs, I always have that second barrier protecting Mia from the outdoors. I'm always so scared she's going to make it outside, so now I've forbidden anyone from entering through the front door. We mainly use the garage door to get into the house through. We shut the garage door, then come into the house. Or we go around the back and go through the sun room where I always have the door from the sun room to the kitchen shut.

 

[Prince Toasty Buns]

I disagree with the position that clipping has only a "temporary" effect because wings can grow out. I believe that there are lasting effects. Some are obvious and others less so but just because humans are not always able to spot them does not mean they do not exist. Some birds are more emotionally sensitive than others and they are the ones who probably are negatively impacted the most by the modification of their flight feathers but I think all are affected in one way or another.

Ever notice how your bird(s) react to the slightest change in their environment? Anyone with a bird knows that it spooks easily. Ever notice how they kind of sleep with one eye open (speaking figuratively and not literally) and will wake up instantly at the least little sound or flash of light? This is because they are prey animals and they are always watching for the next thing that wants to make a meal of them. This is true even if they have lived their whole lives in a loving, safe and predator-free home. It is their INSTINCT to fly off when they feel threatened, we can all agree on that I hope. Take away or limit their ability to do that and I don't understand how anyone could argue that this does not stress them. It has to.

I know some will say that pet birds are already living unnatural lives as captive animals and that clipping is just part of that process. But I say the unnatural aspect of their captivity is only further justification for at least not taking their wings away from them (even a little). Speaking for myself, I feel I owe it to them to let them keep their wings and I try my best to accomodate them the best I can. I wish more people would.

I don't understand how a trimmed or clipped bird could ever be a better flyer than a bird that was never clipped and allowed to fledge. I could see it possibly if a never-clipped bird was deprived of the space to fledge but otherwise, no. I think a never-clipped, fully fledged bird will always be a superior flyer with a better functioning cardiovascular system. Only makes sense, right.

Vets are notorious for promoting clipping and I give no stock to that, just like I give little credence to vets on dietary issues. Most, from what I understand, have very little training on diet and clipping has been the mantra for so long that I think it will take awhile for the veterinary field to catch up. So the fact that a veterinarian may recommend clipping does not mean it is right. JMO.

Until I got my first bird, I liked to watch the wild ones and even tried to lure a couple of them to my hand. Some would come close but they were always wary and would fly away when I got too close. I really get a kick out of my birds being fully flighted and their flying TO me. For those of you who have a hard time with catching your flighted birds to put them in their cages, what you want to do is to stop chasing them and instead train them to fly to you. It's easier than you might think. There are many sources on the internet that teach people how to do this. Chasing does not work.

I was wondering whether anyone here attended the latest AFA convention? I have heard through the grapevine that the importance of full flight was a topic of one of the lectures there and that one of the speakers presented a paper on the permanent and irreversible physiological impact of depriving babies of their wings before they are fully fledged. I need to see about getting a copy of that paper. Anyone gotten it yet and if you have, I'd like to know what do you think of it. If given a thumbs up, I may just have to see about buying it from AFA.

I've been up and down from the computer and written this post over the course of a couple of hours because I keep getting interrupted. I'm sure there are more posts that have been made since I finished writing this and maybe some of the things I have said has already been said by others. Sorry about that...just skip over any repetitive parts.

 

[Sharpie]

My adult budgies are 'trimmed' so that they have to work a bit harder at flight. All of them can maintain level flight or better, but it's just a bit more effort to do so. I chose to do this because they'd prefer to stay loose and flying about to going back to their cage when I need to leave. When they were the only birds this was fine, but now there's an Amazon who would like to bite their feet off whose cage they love landing on, so they've got to go back to their cage when I need them to.

I'm waiting for my YNA to grow in his flights. Right now he falls like a rock.

I'm thrilled that some of the baby budgies I have are going to homes that plan on keeping them flighted, but I'm also sending some to homes that I know will clip them. I'd rather a great home that clips than an 'okay' one that doesn't.

I feel flight is vital to a bird's mental, physical and emotional well-being, though there is no way to prove that the first and last even exist since bird's don't communicate in English. I keep my birds safe BY keeping them flighted! I really believe that a clipped bird that cannot get up and away is in MUCH more danger in a house with cats and dogs that might eat it and both adults and children who might accidentally step on it than a bird that is flighted. Is there a greater risk of escape? Maybe. The only bird I have ever lost to the outdoors was clipped though, so the idea that clipping keeps them from escaping has not been at all true in my experience.

If you don't like fur and spit, don't get a dog. If you can't deal with claws and scratching, don't get a cat. If you won't at least consider allowing flight, don't get a bird. Notice I'm not saying the bird is better dead than clipped! Just that people should consider how important flight is to birds before making a decision.

I love that feathers moult out and grow back too. I have clipped my birds in the past. I clipped my budgies when I moved and will do so again when I move in the future because it's hard to keep them safe when there are lots of people moving everything everywhere. The YNA will not be clipped, because he's much easier to keep track of and it takes far longer for his flights to grow in to the point where flight is restored.

 

[birdman78]

If you can't deal with claws and scratching, don't get a cat.

OOPS, guess I gilty of this too. But after watching my one cat almost rip the others eye out from playing, and getting my speakers tore up, they got declawed.

 

[Birdlover]

I disagree with the position that clipping has only a "temporary" effect because wings can grow out.

I would have to agre with this on many birds just for my own personal observation on many of mine tht were clipped most of their lives (before they came here, and in some cases, for a bit after I got them unfortunately). The fact that they seem to not know how to fly and basically lose the desire to - that says enough to me tht it can/does change them (maybe not in all cases, but with the ones I have here, for sure).

For those of you who have a hard time with catching your flighted birds to put them in their cages, what you want to do is to stop chasing them and instead train them to fly to you. It's easier than you might think. There are many sources on the internet that teach people how to do this. Chasing does not work.

I would love to see some of you that are experienced with teaching recall help those of us that arent. Would be wonderful to have a refrence here Links are appreciated also.

I have not "officially" recall trained mine but Cassius i did start with and he never gives me any issue with stepping up when its time to go back. He doesnt always come to me but he doesnt take off to avoid going back, ever. He's a super good boy and I love the relationship we have and that even the most amateur attempt at training has made a huge difference. I can only imagine if I was more skilled

I was wondering whether anyone here attended the latest AFA convention? I have heard through the grapevine that the importance of full flight was a topic of one of the lectures there and that one of the speakers presented a paper on the permanent and irreversible physiological impact of depriving babies of their wings before they are fully fledged. I need to see about getting a copy of that paper. Anyone gotten it yet and if you have, I'd like to know what do you think of it. If given a thumbs up, I may just have to see about buying it from AFA.

I havent heard about this but would love to hear more also. I get the AFA Watchbird but dont always read it. Ill have to see if there is any mention in there...

 

[birdman78]

But the good thing about clipping, they will eventually come back so I get a second chance with TJ.

 

[Bokkapooh]

For those of you who have a hard time with catching your flighted birds to put them in their cages, what you want to do is to stop chasing them and instead train them to fly to you. It's easier than you might think. There are many sources on the internet that teach people how to do this. Chasing does not work.

NICELY SAID!

Everything you said in your post was very informative and IMO very accurate. I totally agree. AND THIS quite said a lot. STOP CHASING YOUR BIRDS AROUND, its a negative affect on them on how they SEE YOU. Many people will then say "Ok thats it, Im clipping" after they chased their bird around, then they clip them, to get a more controll over the bird, but then people wonder why their birds are afraid of hands. I know SO MANY birds who are afraid of hands, not just little birds, but the big guys too!

 

[Bokkapooh]

If you don't like fur and spit, don't get a dog. If you can't deal with claws and scratching, don't get a cat. If you won't at least consider allowing flight, don't get a bird. Notice I'm not saying the bird is better dead than clipped! Just that people should consider how important flight is to birds before making a decision.

NICELY said!

 

[Bokkapooh]

I would love to see some of you that are experienced with teaching recall help those of us that arent. Would be wonderful to have a refrence here Links are appreciated also....

I wish I got videos of Gra recall flying outdoors I regret many things..

I am working on Op and Bokka is a never ending case.

I'll try and get videos Im going to get videos of all the tricks my fids do, so I can teach everyone through youtube(my vids though) on proper conditioning through click and reward, and target training, and recall training.