Clipping or Not??????

[Birdlover]

I can go both ways on this topic, but I personally keep my birds unclipped. Unfortunately many of them had been severly clipped in the past and just dont want to fly now. We've worked on it, it just hasnt happened for some of them.

I think if you are going to be keeping any bird the house should be made safe for them, but there are extra precautions with a flighted bird. I would rather see a bird clipped and in a good home than a flighted bird stuck in a cage all the time. Of course it would be better having wings and being able to fly, but I certainly wouldnt look down on someone just because they clip. The main reason for having this area is to help educate each other and share ideas. Change takes time, I used to clip all the time because thats what was promoted back then. But I like to see my birds fly and I wont clip them again. There can be circumstances that make it difficult but things can be worked through in some cases without resorting to a clip.

I promised Cassius he would never have a clip, and Im sticking to it. I love that he has always known he can fly. Its totally a part f who he is and I love that about him

All my guys have large cages, and while it is still a cage, none of them give me any trouble to go back (ever). They have lots to do in there and in fact sometimes want to go back instead of being out. Cassius especially has a great time playing with the stuff he has in his cage. He has things to play with outside the cage too, but different stuff. He enjoys time out and he enjoys his cage space too. If a bird hates its cage then maybe things need to be adjusted so they dont (size, setup, things to do, etc).

 

[Bokkapooh]

Seeing how a cage is a birds home, do you consider your house to be a prison??

OH YES, I very well quite do!

This is how I see. You birds has a cage, let say its in the bedroom, and then when it comes out of its cage, its in ANOTHER CAGE; the bedroom. And then when it come sout of the bedroom its inside ANOTHER slightly larger cage, which can be the bathroom, living room, dining room, etc. And then if it ever gets outside, its free, unless its in an aviary,leash,etc.

A house is the main cage, and then their are smaller cages within the house house, and then their is the cage.

A cage inside a cage inside a cage inside a cage. And people wonder why their birds are crazy?

I have to admit.. We use cages as well. And we have a bird room. But we also allow many "natural" playstands as possible in the living room. And in spring/summer we have most of our bird soutdoors for hours on end.. But my birds love playing on their cages too, I provide many many toys (thats one thing I will brag about though.. even though its a cage, it still is a fun cage atleast) and to provide a fun and safe environment.

Last summer I succeeded in having a recall trained free flighted (who flies un restrained and un caged outdoors) scarlet macaw, Gra. She passed away due to unknown causes in September, 09'.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I would rather see a bird clipped and in a good home than a flighted bird stuck in a cage all the time.

Totally agree. If I ran a rescue, and someone wanted a bird, but not the flight, but they could provide a HUGE cage, and many playstands, etc. And someone came up to mer and would provide an "ok" envornment(o k size cage, maybe a playstand or two, but still attiquete amount of toys, and vet care and food), I'd much prefer the bird to go to a home where it has a massive cage, and many many playstands, then a bird who is flighted, with some out of cage time, but not much of an environment.

 

[itzmered]

And many people say they have little kids running in and out of the house, etc, but do you not supervise your kids, and your birds? Do you not teach them to open doors quickly and shut them quickly so a bird cannot get outside? Do you not teach them to SHUT the door? Lack of responsibility perhaps? I nerver understood this.. why not teach the littlens some respect? Im sorry if this offends anyone.

I don't think any one is not teaching their children to respect the birds. My birds are fully flighted. We have a door going into a mud room that then goes outside. I have watched my husband and adult children quickly open and close the door going into the mud room and the birds slip through at the last second almost getting caught in the door. They fly fast and maneuver well. Don't assume that people are not teaching their children to do the proper thing.

 

[birdman78]

Change takes time, I used to clip all the time because thats what was promoted back then. But I like to see my birds fly and I wont clip them again.

There is where I am at right now. Talked to the wife, and she is for it.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Don't assume that people are not teaching their children to do the proper thing.

Sorry if I came across that way. I was just saying many people will say "I have kids going in andd out leaving doors,etc open, I cant have aflighted bird". And my response was thr quote you responded to

Whenever the kids have many kids over or even us adults, we should always be vigilant, know when to put the birds up for a quick second, hold toes, to prevent mishaps etc.

A clipped bird can get past a closing door and "fly" away just as well as a fully flighted bird.

 

[Hay Kay]

Wow intense but civil thus far. I must say my .02 then butt out as John did.

I side with John and Mercedez. Would you cut a puppies teeth out for nipping? or constantly muzzle them - perhaps eventually but most people will work with the issue and resort to muzzling as a last resort as it doesn't address the actual issue of nipping. Clipping a bird is very similar. we clip them because it is convienent for us or "safer" (not always the case) or because we want to hand tame them faster.. I know my vet was shocked to see the relationship my husband and i have with Felix when we told her he has always been fully flighted and we've never had to force him... Clipping is like muzzeling to a degree because it forces the bird to be dependant on us to get anywhere. it doesn't condition them to learn "ok playstands" or what not it doesn't stop their curiosity. In my opinion a clipped bird is just as likely to get into trouble or danger as an unclipped bird.

My story: My birds are NOT clipped(by me though Sunny came that way) and I have no intensions of clipping them again.
Felix came to me flighted his past owner had had to teach him to fly after the pet stor clipped him without asking, lucky for both Fe was still just a baby and learned well. He is a happy socialble friendly but fully able to self entertain bird. He is stable. Every day when i get home i first let the birds out felix flies laps around the house, singngs and buzzing by my head. He lands for a moment to give my husband and i kisses (yes witha kissy noise and everything). I WILL NEVER CLIP him. But that is MY CHOICE. Why you ask? felix has been fully flighted throughout the entire taming process. We never had to force, coerce or brib him to be honest. We have a phenominal relationship and so much trust. I think this is partily beacuse of him as an indivdual but also because he knows that if something scares him, we push, or he feels like it he can fly away to calm down. We respect that and so does he (we even "fly" away if he gets nippy)
Sunny however has been clipped all 11 years of her life (last clip in june before she came to me and that will be her last clip ever). She is 11 years old on a good to great diet (a few things we cut out) but had to see the vet 3 times before coming to me beacuse she went into her lay cycle. SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE MUCSCLES to lay. her LIFE WAS AT RISK obviously the vet took care of that and stopped the lay cylce with antibiotics and hormones (oh yay..not) The vet said the abdominal atrophey was cause from lack of excersise and the simple fact that she had been severly clipped her whole life. More recently my vet is thrilled. since teaching her to fly (her wings are getting there she can fly about 10 feet before wearing out) and float rather than sink. she is happy lost the fat, toning up and overall a more stable bird. I have no intentions of ever clipping her again and leaving her to rely on drugs if she hits a lay cycle. I want her healthy happy and strong (isn't that what we all want to be and what for what we love?)

Now that is just my take on the situation: the pros and cons for clipping and not clipping go both ways and it is THE INDIVIDUALS choice. however that said to say that all birds MUST BE CLIPPED is simply wrong. In fact BIRDS SHOULDN'T be clipped, BUT they will survive if they are clipped it is up to US as the owner and "parent" to stimulate them and give them the proper excersise to stay fit (ladders, practice finger flying, boings....). and mentally sound

So with that i am out, my opinion is obviously that i advocate learning to live with your flighted bird, BUT whatever you decide yourselves is more than fine with me. They are your pets, your responsibilities, in your home. Do what you will! I cannot judge someone else for a decision that they make that soesn't affect me or "hurt/abuse" the animal and i don't think clipping is abuse IF done correctly.

 

[saroj12]

Haylie,
I just learned from your post regarding egg issues that I need to 'force' my newly flighted caiques to fly. They are not used to it so it doesn't occur to them. I will be putting them on boring surfaces where the only escape from the sheer monotony is to FLY off!
They sure do need to exercise their flight muscles!

 

[Hay Kay]

Saroj - I had no idea that was an issue until i adopted sunny and started reading through her vet files, even called the vet. Before i had no opinions on this subject for others but after this i do. I think everyone should excersize their fids (clipped or not) in some manor. Sunny and I have played the "sit on my finger and flap your wings while i move it" game for a while. Shes only recently started to get brave enough to let go and fly on her own (short distances like we started at 6" away from her cage) Now she flies to me, the shower the bedroom, wherever we are cause thats where she wants to be. It was super important to me to ensure she never had to deal with that again.

Good luck once they start getting the hang of it and the muscles built up they will LOVE IT!

 

[itzmered]

Jasper wasn't really sure what he was supposed to do when his flights grew in. It didn't take him more than a couple of weeks to figure it out. It helped having Tango flying all over and he wants to be where ever Tango is or we are. He is now an expert at manuevering around things and getting much better at his landings. I know all the dangers that come with a fully flighted bird and make sure that no ceiling fans are turned on. Doors are carefully opened to go outside or the birds are put in their cage if there is going to be a lot of in and out traffic. It is still a personal choice that everyone need to make for themselves.

 

[Prince Toasty Buns]

I did not find JL Cribber's post(s) to be disrespectful of others' opinions or their way of doing things. He just disagrees with the justifications some have given for clipping their birds. I think anyone should be allowed to state their contrary position without being labeled as being disrespectful.

Btw, JL Cribber's position about how clipping is for human convenience is not new. I've seen a similar position taken by Gay Noeth in an article she published on the topic of clipping. I think her article is the best about human motivations for clipping and debunking some of the myths in support of clipping. Here is the link to her article: Should you clip your parrot. These are some of the things she says there:

"Birds are meant to fly and are most happy and secure when they can. If a bird cannot fly, its cardiovascular system won’t work hard enough to remain healthy. They need to fly for fun and for exercise and to escape from danger. A bird that cannot fly will tend to be more fearful because it knows it is vulnerable.

***​

So why do we suggest to clip wing feathers? All these years we have been told it’s for the safety of the bird! Have we been brainwashed?
How can it be for the bird’s safety if we can actually cause injury by taking away flight? How is it for their safety when we take away their natural escape response while housing them with predators? How is it for them, when some birds begin plucking from the clip? How is it for them if our homes still contain the same hazards, but we have taken away their ability to manoeuvre properly around/from these hazards in our home? How is it for their benefit if we let their muscles atrophy? How can it be best for them if their respiratory system doesn’t fully function without flight?
No! I can only assume it must be for another reason, but certainly NOT for the bird.

***​

My wish is that someday us humans will adapt to having a bird rather than the bird adapt to having humans."

These letters in bold type are not my words but come straight from the article by Gay Noeth.

I think another good article in support of keeping birds flighted was written by Steve Hartman. He is the inventor (I believe) of the Aviator Harness. You can find his article at: The Parrot University at Hartman Aviary

Steve Hartman's article goes into a lot of detail about the physiological needs of birds to fly. I highly recommend it. This is just a sample of what he has to say on the topic that comes straight from that article:

"Our 20 year flighted parrot experience includes over 800 flock oriented pet parrots, and over 4,000 flighted baby parrots from more than 50 species. Cumulatively this amounts to over 7,000 bird years of hands on experience. As a result we have found the number one characteristic that defines a “parrot” is its ability to fly. Flight is fundamental to every component of a parrot's mind and body. ​

Learning to fly well is the most complicated and important task a parrot can learn. Flighted parrots are healthier, more active, more coordinated, and have much better vision. Flying promotes higher intelligence, self-confidence, self-esteem and ultimately makes a more social long-term companion."

Years ago, clipping was never questioned. It was just always done. I can feel that the tide is now finally turning and clipping is no longer automatically done. People are now finally beginning to question the claimed merits of clipping and understanding the detrimental impact it can have on a bird. I am also seeing that more and more breeders are beginning to understand the importance of allowing babies to fledge, although there are many who still clip before they should (I personally wish they never clipped at all).

I know that change is never easy and rarely quick. I am encouraged though to see more and more people promoting full flight. So long as we all can keep a lid on our emotions, for the most part anyway (sometimes it is truly hard for some of us to keep our emotions from boiling over when we hear excuses rather than taking alternatives to clipping) and just stick to the science while being as objective as we can in sharing our experiences with flighted and clipped birds, I think this thread is worthwhile.

 

[atvchick95]

I've said this until i was blue in the face and i'll keep saying it. Birds who are clipped correctly can still FLY.... so stop Assuming they can't.

mine are clipped and fly ALL the time.they have been known to fly better then fully flighted birds who were never clipped

my birds are also healthy , BIG, and strong So i guess wing clipping when done correctly Doesn't do the damage some of you think it does

when the vets tell me I'm doing everything right and they haven't seen a budgie so big and strong before . I'll take that as a compliment

If you think a House is a prison to a bird perhaps you shouldn't own birds

you can tell kids a hundred times to shut a door THEY ARE KIDS they will forget. That statement shows you have no experience with children what so ever

like i said Earlier i have never lost a bird out a door or window, and never even came close Even when MOVING and all the birds were in their cages in a back of a truck covered with blanket when I moved.... so that tells me I'm doing right when i sit here and read daily about some ones fully flighted bird getting out... sometimes the same person more than once... that should tell them something.

My birds are not lazy just because they are clipped even the Quakers we've let them get fully flighted They'd fly around but they would much rather walk every where

Cages are not prisons, houses are not prisons

and that is so nice to let new members see this is how some people think and yet those same people own birds and cages and live in a house.. being a little hypocritical there

and you are downgrading people who clip their birds wings, you may not come out and say it but it is right there in the writing

and most of you who are against wing clipping I am sure is all for getting a cat or dog Fixed Yet I am against it. I am against Abortion no matter if its a animal or human. and Yes a freshly laid egg boiled/shook what ever to me is abortion

but do i comment on these things to make ppl feel bad? NO.... Do I comment on people who let their birds be fully flighted then they get out and never return to make them feel bad ? NO have I wanted to YES , but I keep SOME opinions to my self where it should stay!

Like i said this discussion will always be a drama fest, it will always be Agreed to disagree

but do not downgrade people for clipping their birds do not tell them they're crippling them BECAUSE we are NOT (perhaps some one who doesn't do it right like the person who cut my sun dances WING BONE OFF yes that crippled him HE CAN NOT FLY but I did not do it and I would of never cut a bone off) wings grow back there for it is not crippling.... when some one is crippled they don't regain use of the crippled body part again!

 

[birdman78]

Kelli, I think your fids are more trimed than clipped. As I understand, to be clipped means to not be able to get lift, but to glide down to the ground. Please, correct me if I am wrong. I am just recently getting back into birds and would love to learn all I can.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Really interesting reads in this thread! I was under the impression that there was a difference between clipped and trimmed too. When I say 'clipped' in this thread I mean CLIPPED.

I personally have no clipped birds. I have heard of many a clipped bird that escaped just as well as a flighted one, so that argument never made sense to me. I've heard of just as many clipped birds injured on the ground as I have flighted birds flying into things, so that argument never made sense to me. I've met perfectly ballsy/moody clipped birds just as I have flighted ones, so that argument never made sense to me.

The arguments that HAVE made sense are that my birds are better able to exercise in the way nature intended, which benefits their health. If (god forbid) they DO get out, they have a better shot of surviving long enough for me to find them. If a dangerous situation arises in the home, they can get to safety themselves quicker than I can get them to safety. And as birds, flying is an integral part of their life that they enjoy and benefit from.

That being said, everyone's situation is different. I'm lucky enough to have two rooms that can be LOCKED with blinds down for the birds to come out and fly safely. So they get plenty of "out" time. If my birds had to be out in the main part of the house, where people are coming in and out and the bird only is allowed out if the escape risk is minimal, I would certainly consider clipping. I also understand why people trim rather than leave their birds fully flighted; this seems like a nice middle road.

But honestly, I feel as a bird owner it is my responsibility to modify my habits, not their body, to protect their safety; bird-proofing my home is, IMO, a preferable option to home-proofing my birds.

 

[itzmered]

Tango my sun conure was previously clipped. He had 5 feathers clipped on each side and could still fly just fine. He could even fly upstairs if he worked really hard at it. I think it depends on the bird on how well they can fly after a wing clipping as much as the clip itself does.

 

[atvchick95]

Kelli, I think your fids are more trimed than clipped. As I understand, to be clipped means to not be able to get lift, but to glide down to the ground. Please, correct me if I am wrong. I am just recently getting back into birds and would love to learn all I can.

mine can not get from the floor up but if they are on top of something - cage, play stand, us etc They zoom around but can't stay up for a real long time - some longer then others depends on the bird and Glide (they don't drop like a bomb At least not the ones I've clipped) Yes Kaycee came to me dropping like a bomb but i didn't clip her and the lady cut Way too much off..... and when her feathers grow out she'll get to be fully flighted for a while then she too will be clipped just like the rest but right now she lands like a ton of bricks and has broken almost all her tail feathers - she doesn't even try to fly when she jumps She just JUMPS off and lands on the floor once on the floor she flaps her wings and cant go any where

The woman i got her from who clipped her like this - I'd like to smack up side the head BUt i can't so i wont

 

[Danita]

Three of mine are flighted. I taught the TAG to fly and since he has perfected his flying skills it he is not so agitated. He has to be trimmed a bit once in awhile as he gets saucy and will fly at someone when angry to bite them. The CAG and BG are flighted but have no desire to fly except if they are in emergency situations.
I have to slightly clip my tiel, she is not all that bright, she flies directly into danger (big beaks, kitchen, windows) when her wings are left, ALL the time.

I think it all depends on the bird and the lifestyle. Some people do live with others that they don't trust and there is nothing you can do to really fix that situation. It is like a mother instinct, some don't have it and can't foresee dangerous situations.

 

[birdman78]

Thanks Kelli, now I have a better understanding.

 

[Gen120]

My amazon and 1 conure is flighted. The rest are clipped:

Sammy, my amazon did not know how to fly when I first brought her home, she fell like a rock, and walked everywhere she went, she was severely clipped when I got her. It took her 2 full years to grow all of her flight feathers back in. Now, she knows how to fly properly and loves it, she is much healthier since being flighted. My 1 conure that is flighted loves flying also, but flies to fast in the birdroom (and I am afraid he will get hurt), so unfortunately I have to clip him in the next few days.

The reason my other fids are not flighted is because of safety issues:

The cockatiels fly to fast and they have hit the wall/windows before, and I clipped the slightly, so they can still glide, they can glide to their cage, play-stand, etc. I just clipped them so they would not gain as much speed/height. Pepper is slightly clipped because she is aggressive when she is flighted, she tends to want to bite and fly around the room for a long time, when I try to put her up. So, she is clipped so she can glide to her cage, play-stand, etc.

Everyone has a different lifestyle, sometimes, it is safer to have your birds clipped, if you have kids that are going in/out the door. If you go to work, and you don't have any kids, then it might be a little safer to keep them flighted. I also do not look at my birds cages like a prison, at all, and neither do they. They are out of their cages a lot of the day, if not all day, every day. They have plenty of toys, and things to do if they are in their cages.

I can see that this thread is getting slightly heated, so please be nice.

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

in order to keep all my birds flighted since they do not get along I must move Rocky out of the room since he will bite her toes and she likes his cage
when baby is out move every one out when Rocky is out due to the fact he loves to bother the bigger birds and Little General and Percy can not play together this takes time since I do not have enough space for everyone at once most do not have the time and there are reasons to clip when you have birds of different size who dislike each other I think it depends on the bird and family dynamics of the flock and family so in the end a personal choice that should not be judged