Clipping or Not??????

[clawnz]

I have refrained from posting on the other thread. But thought it should be a a seprate thread.
That can be closed when it gets out of hand.

I beg anybody who has not yet clipped their birds, please do some research, for your birds sake.
Or those who are looking to buy young birds, ask the breeder not to clip.


There will always be those for and against clipping.
It is a pity we cannot ask those that it effects most! Our Fids. After all they are the ones who count.
I cannot talk for all Fids but for those who are prey. When they lose the ability to fly, they will be scared, and nervous.

Yer! sure they seem to get over it. But ' Do they?'



A birds whole physic is built around flight. It's respiratory system is built around flight and will not get a full cardio-vascular workout without flight.



Should you clip your parrot

Proper Wing Clipping

Project Bird Watch Library: Feathers, Flight & Parrot Keeping
This site gives very good Non Biased reasoning. With some very solid facts.


I would like to add.
My 2x Tiels are Free Flighted and are free to go where they want, never caged since I got them. (Just over 11/12wks) Both have had to deal with over 60 panes of glass in the conservatory.
Tinkerbell Ex Avairy, has no trouble sorting this out. My best guess is she has never been clipped fall stop. She is a Pocket Rocket, a full on jet fighter, but can stop like a hummingbird.
Henry Ex Caged, may of been clipped, but cannot vouch for that. He can straight line, with effort, but not good with aim. It did not matter about glass, he just flew into what ever was in front him, wall, glass, cuboard . Blinds. Anything solid stops him. When it came to Panic Flight, he was bloody hopeless.
I have seen him miss judge the corner of the conservatory and turn to quickly and run into the glass? Luck has been on his side, as he cannot fly well, it was only low speed stuff. And I should add he has got better. He looks so funny when he goes past, I swear you can see the effort he is putting in. Around 110per cent.
After a bird has been clipped and it grows flight feathers back in, it has to learn to fly all over again!
Then if it has had some scares while impaired it may not be so keen to fly again anyway. I mean it may of lost confidence to even try to fly.

If you do want a flightless pet do not buy a bird?

 

[Flahmingo]

I have two cats. My bird would not be long for this world if I allowed him free flight in my home. Does that mean I should not have given him a (re) home?

 

[birdman78]

Let me start off by saying I can go either way on this topic. TJ is currently clipped but am letting him grow his wings out and we'll play it by ear.

I view clipping wings like baby proofing your house. We put outlet covers on to protect the baby, just like we clip to protect. In your theroy

I have seen him miss judge the corner of the conservatory and turn to quickly and run into the glass? Luck has been on his side, as he cannot fly well, it was only low speed stuff.

, lets just let the baby stick a toy in the outlet. Luck maybe on there side. My point is, why would you chance "Luck".

If you do want a flightless pet do not buy a bird?

You want you bird to be flighted and free, take him/her outside to fly freely, and see where that will get you.

Like I said, I can go either way. A properly clipped bird to me has less dangers.

 

[Chicklette]

I think if a bird is in danger or smacks in to walls then you should clip. If not I would not clip.

Both Chiquita and Boomer are fully flighted and I would never clip their wings. It is amazing to see them fly. Right now Chiquita just whipped past my head. The excitement she gets from flying is a good feeling, she is free. Boomer is also a great flyer. Both go home on command, I trained them both fully flighted to step up, go home, go on my arms when I call them, ect. So it can be done without clipping.

I just think birds are meant to fly. Everything in my home is birdie safe, I NEVER leave them alone when they are out. But they just absolutely love to fly.

I had an IRN Polsky and his wings were clipped and he tried so hard to fly it made me sad however, it was a bad clip job by the breeder. He fell to the bottom of his cage, cracked his neck and passed away because he lost him balance and could not fly. I loved him so much.

But everyone has their own opinion which is fine, it’s your bird, so what you feel is right and necessary. But Im all for not clipping.

 

[Renae]

I don't think it's up to anyone to say who should or shouldn't clip their birds wings. Do research yourself and then make the choice, because in the end, you're not only making a decision, but doing what YOU think is best for your bird(s).

There's a lot of reasons why some bird owners choose to clip their bird's wings, and then there's just as many reasons why some bird owners do not.

All my birds are fully flighted, I think clipping a birds wings is taking away their ability to fly. The only time I suggest clipping a birds wings is when training (if the person's just bought the bird) but then letting them get their flight feathers back and being able to be a free flight bird again like they should be. Just my opinion.

 

[atvchick95]

I don't know why people bring these topics up when they're "experienced" bird owners......... when they know good and well it starts a debate every single time

it's well known this topic is one that every one agrees to disagree

what is right for one is not always right for another

and i am tired of people saying birds who are clipped can not fly - all i can say is y'all must be seeing birds who were clipped WRONG..... because mine are clipped and yes they DO FLY just not from the ground up, nor can they stay up as long

No I do not Clip YOUNG birds. they fly for a few weeks - months before they get clipped.

I have NEVER lost a bird or even came close to losing one out a door/window , now if mine were fully flighted I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to say that!

it is the OWNERS Choice, if they want to clip their bird(s) or not not some Joe Schmoes choice off the internet and IF we do clip DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON US, like we just killed the bird because IT is NOTHING like that

and don't tell me you don't because I know SEVERAL of you do!

The only people that should be bringing up this topic are "newbies" who are asking rather they should or shouldn't in their particular environment and wanting ADVICE , OPINIONS not people who are AGAINST wing clipping.

I'm against a lot of things and alot of those are HUGE debates, but you don't see me posting about it, making it sound like my way is the only way.... because I know it isn't.... Just because it works for me and my house hold does not mean it will work for Tom, dick, or Harry's house hold and I am well aware of that. and when "newbies" do ask I only tell them what works for mine and make sure they understand it may not work in their case because EVERY case is DIFFERENT

and Please don't go on the rampage, that a clipped bird is the only bird that plucks, none of mine pluck and are clipped. So again NOT ALWAYS THE CASE! I actually know more birds who have never been clipped that pluck than birds who are clipped who pluck.

 

[jim]

I would love to let my birds fly. Yes it does appease my guilt a little bit more when they can fly. Guilt for keeping these wonderful creatures locked up in the first place.
Granted, I do not have the decades and decades of experience some of you have. But the only thin my Eclectus seems to not do when clipped is fly into the window, mirror or curio cabinet. The window she will try to fly around or threw any obstruction in the way. The mirror she attacks the bird in the mirror. Same with the curio. Being clipped doesn't slow her down one bit as far as getting around the place though.
My Senegal has taken flight as the opportunity to attack those things that keep me away from her. Things like my wife.
We will try again after the next molt. Cricket has remained flighted and most likely will not get clipped again.
I would love for my birds to be flighted. They will be again. But for the safety of MY home, for now two out of three are clipped.

 

[JLcribber]

I view clipping wings like baby proofing your house. We put outlet covers on to protect the baby, just like we clip to protect.

In order to make to make your analogy correct you would need to cut the babies fingers off so he couldn't stick things in the socket.

Covering the socket is the same as making a "safe" environment to fly. Not clipping the bird.

I'll make one short statement and I'm staying out this. Causes nothing but arguing.

Clipping has everything to do with what is convenient for the human ( because they can't or won't provide an environment so the bird can fly) and nothing to do with what is wanted and needed by the bird.

Roger, Over and out.

 

[Prince Toasty Buns]

"I don't know why people bring these topics up when they're "experienced" bird owners......... when they know good and well it starts a debate every single time........"

I feel Clawnz, like any member here, has a right to share his opinion and advice on whatever subject he chooses. I believe he has not done so before on clipping (not on the Avenue, at least, that I am aware of) but even if he has, I think he should be allowed to speak his mind on the subject and start a thread on the topic without anyone being upset by him doing that or suggesting he should not have done it. Just because a thread is posted doesn't mean everyone has to read it. There are many threads here that I do not read simply because I am limited in time or the subject matter as identified in the thread title does not interest me. If the discussion of the subject of clipping is upsetting to anyone, would not the better choice be to simply not open the thread to read it rather than complaining of it having been made at all? Discussion and debate is great in my own opinion and should be welcomed among intelligent and caring people.

 

[jim]

In order to make to make your analogy correct you would need to cut the babies fingers off so he couldn't stick things in the socket.

Covering the socket is the same as making a "safe" environment to fly. Not clipping the bird.

I'll make one short statement and I'm staying out this. Causes nothing but arguing.

Clipping has everything to do with what is convenient for the human ( because they can't or won't provide an environment so the bird can fly) and nothing to do with what is wanted and needed by the bird.

Roger, Over and out.

Here is where perception causes issues. I don't see clipping as a permanent issue. Where as cutting off fingers and feet is. If a baby gets its finger in a light socket or duplex, you won't have to worry about cutting it off, as it will get blown off.
I see clipping more like being a leash. But of course on issues I'm more passionate about I find similar analogies myself.

Clipping has everything to do with what is convenient for the human ( because they can't or won't provide an environment so the bird can fly) and nothing to do with what is wanted and needed by the bird.

the first half of that I agree with and admit to completely. But to suggest that it has nothing to do with the needs of my birds? Well, let me just say I strongly disagree.















oh, and what I love most about this very heated topic even when it remains civil? It makes people think. When everybody jumps in like a bunch of bobble heads and just agrees with everything so as to not stir the pot tends to gloss over any topic. And sadly, clipped or flighted, a cage is a cage is a cage.

 

[Archiesmom]

Neither of my birds are clipped, but Ella's wings are growing in from a clip by her previous owner. She can fly, but not well, and she certainly isn't confident.
Archie is able to fly around our home, but certainly isn't free flighted, as we have walls, windows, and numerous other things that he could crash into. We also have a cat and two dogs. I prevent him from having to all around the house by using recall training, and always making sure he is supervised, and that I am in a reachable and attainable area for him, so he has direction.
If it ever became more hazardous for my birds, I would not hesitate to have them clipped by an experienced avian vet. Their safety and wellbeing is on the top of my priority list.

 

[JLcribber]

Here is where perception causes issues. I don't see clipping as a permanent issue. Where as cutting off fingers and feet is. If a baby gets its finger in a light socket or duplex, you won't have to worry about cutting it off, as it will get blown off.



And sadly, clipped or flighted, a cage is a cage is a cage.

Your quite correct Jim. I'll change that statement. It's like duct taping their hands closed (instead of cutting their fingers off)

And absolutely, a cage is a cage is a cage. The largest cage in the world is still just a prison to a bird.

 

[birdman78]

And absolutely, a cage is a cage is a cage. The largest cage in the world is still just a prison to a bird.

Seeing how a cage is a birds home, do you consider your house to be a prison? Oh, and if you only use a sleeping cage, then do you consider your bedroom to be a prison?

 

[Gen120]

Everyone please be nice! Thanks, Victoria, (Moderator)

 

[birdman78]

Everyone please try to be nice! Thanks, Victoria, (Moderator)

Sorry wasn't trying to be mean. Like I said, I can go both ways on this topic. I see pros and cons on boths sides. I am giving TJ the chance to be flighted and see where we go from there.

 

[birdlvr466]

John( JL Cribber) you are entitled to your opinion, however we all dont have the luxury of aviaries and I DO NOT consider my birds cages prisons and neither to they from the way they act. Respect other peoples opinions and ways of doing things please. Birdman you are fine, you were not mean at all.

 

[itzmered]

There will always be debates on this subject. I think it is good to read what both sides think on it and why. It gives inexperienced bird owners different things to think about Just please keep it civil.

 

[saroj12]

When everybody jumps in like a bunch of bobble heads and just agrees with everything so as to not stir the pot tends to gloss over any topic.

Love the bobblehead comment, Jim

My guys think their cage is their castle
Sometimes they will go in there on their own to play with some favorite toy

 

[Bokkapooh]

I cant have a horse, I dont have a pasture. Even a disabled horse diserves a pasture, even if it is crippled. You wouldnt house it in a stall all its life and call it a life, would you? I think this holds the same for birds who are meant to fly. If you have a dangerous home, perhaps you shouldnt have a bird or you should MAKE it work for flight and make it less dangerous. As its unhealthy for a bird who is suppose to fly, to be clipped. Their whole CNS (central nervous system) and their whole body type from how their muscles are put together, their organs, everything, is geared towards flight. It is unhealthy for them to not be able to fly. They are more likely to get health issues, sick, etc, due to being clipped(I cant prove this, but hopefully everyone would see this as common sense. A unactive person, who is wheel chair bound and possibly overweight WILL more than likely get more sick and have more health issues than those who are active and healthy, this is true for all animals(well I have not clue about bugs, how it affects them..and not much is said on reptiles if they lack excersize except that they get over weight.. but there is the answer already in that)).

People who have finches, shouldnt clip their birds, they should have huge cages and still be allowed out of cage time, but many people do not, because finches can get into mischief as they are so little and able to beam around the room, many just keep the poor things in their prisons. But to allow out of cage time for a small finch, do you clip it?? No. But why a parrot? A parrot and a finch are one and the same, they NEED to fly. Just because a parrot can climb, it doesnt mean it should still be clipped. What happens if nature didnt make it possible for them to climb? Would you still clip? I hear of people clipping grackles, starlings, crows, pigeons, toucans, toucannets, etc

I hear people say "I have a cat/dog, and my bird would be dead if I allowd him to fly around" Then I say to that is, why? A cat/dog can still get to the said bird even when its clipped, and if they are clipped, they are WORST OFF than if they were flighted, when they are around cat/dog. Which comes to the point of: PROPER supervision! If you can have a clipped bird around said cat/dog, then you can definetly have a flighted bird.

And many people say they have little kids running in and out of the house, etc, but do you not supervise your kids, and your birds? Do you not teach them to open doors quickly and shut them quickly so a bird cannot get outside? Do you not teach them to SHUT the door? Lack of responsibility perhaps? I nerver understood this.. why not teach the littlens some respect? Im sorry if this offends anyone. I terribly sorry if it does, as it is not meant to. Its one of those things that I just dont understand. My younger siblings have ADD, and ASPERGER, and boy oh boy its hard to live with them and be around them, but they still know they HAVE to shut the doors wuickly, not to bring logs and other scarey things that arent even meant ot be in the house, in the house, not to leave cages doors open they are suppose to be in the cages, not to leave hous edoors open, windows, etc. And these are little kids who have a learning disablity and asperger.

PLUS we have a ton of animal, RATS, snakes, bearded dragons, a turtle, DOGS and MANY CATS(my mom rescues cats..). Our birds KNOW and will not fly onto the rat cages, we taught them well through conditioning. And the dogs and cats know WELL that they cannot even look atg the birds and other animals funny, and they usually dont anyway. Why not teach your dogs and cats that the feathered ones are friends, I mean TEACH them, make them learn (Im not saying beat or hurt the animals either!).

HOWEVER. I am one to speak, I have clipped other people's bird's wings. My mom clips her little birds wings. Not to prevent them from getting hurt from another animal,etc(because you as the caregiver must WATCH them), but because she doesnt have the patience to recall train them to come to her on call to be place back in their cages. So her little birds can still fly, and they very much do, but they have a light clip, to make more easier capture for when its time to be put back into their cages(and who wants to be put into a cage?).

I am not against those who clip who DO IT RIGHT. No one should just clip a bird to just land bound the poor things, but to allow still some flight, but to prevent them from getting "out of control",etc. But then comes to mind, why not teach them (the unrooly and un "controlled" birds)otherwise? But then the answer comes to mind: I have no patience/time. But then people can argue about "well if you dont have time to train an animal, why have it? Selfish reasons perhaps?"

You can argue all the ways around and back and forth again and again.

I am totally against clipping, I will never clip any of my birds, future and present birds ever again. I 100% advise NOT to clip whenever possible for health reasons of both phsyical and pyschological issues that will occur. But I do not treat people who do clip their birds, any differently, than those who allow flight. But I try try try to educate them so they understand if you clip the bird, he will not be as healthy as if he was flighted, and he may devlope psychological.

 

[Bokkapooh]

But to suggest that it has nothing to do with the needs of my birds? Well, let me just say I strongly disagree.

.

I dont understand this. Arent you saying your bird needs to be clipped? Their needs are: health excersize that motivated their entire body (flight, no walking or just regular flapping cuts it), psychologically and physically. Mentally and physically, they NEED to be able to fly.

Did you know that land birds, who are meant to run/walk,etc, have MASSIVE leg muscles and their body is geared to run(how their organs are placed, and bone structure, etc)? Same thing for a bird how is meant to fly.

Birds who need to fly NEED to fly. Nature wouldnt have created them to have flight feathers otherwise

Can you tell us how you birds need to be clipped, how it is a PRO for their mental health, physical health, and overall well being vs a bird who is flighted?

A bird who is flighted, sure it can fly around and possibly get out doors by the negligent bird owner(I will admit my family WAS pretty negligent, we almost lost Tiki(quaker)) twice to the great outdoors. But we have definetly imrpoved out tactics to prevent that. And did you know a clipped bird can just as well fly outdoors and your less likely to get him/her back?

A clipped bird can fly into the toilet too! Just like a flighted one. But it cant get out vs a biord who knows how to fly and will typically avoid the toilet bathroom(which has me saying, why not shut the bathroom door?)

A flighted bird will typically avoid a hot pot of water on the stove vs a clipped bird. A clipped bird will accidently land in it..gravity of course.

A flighted bird typically will get away from the cat/dog, a clipped bird is land bound and unable to.

A bird who can fly and KNOWS 100% how to FLY, will typically be a much safer bird vs a clipped bird.

I see way too many cons for clipping. If you are very vigilant and responsible, you should be able to maintain your household and live comfortably with a flighted bird.