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TBD Cause of 11 Bird Deaths

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AkasyaEllric

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My thoughts on this personally, we don't know what killed those birds, that is the only 100% pure fact in this. Did Zupreem handle themselves as well as the other 2 companies, imo, no, they didn't at all. That alone is enough for me to not feed them or their products to my animals. The "we already tested so why test again" mantra got old real quick. But, to be fair, my one bird who came already on Zupreem was switched off of that as fast as he would allow. I'm not a fan of artificial dyes anyways. I just wish 2 things at this point. That an answer is found, if one can be, and that Zupreem would of handled themselves as well as Higgins and Lafeber did. I feed both those brands and will continue to do so because they, at least outwardly, have a much better bedside manner, for lack of a better term.
 

SunUp

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[QU OTE="jmfleish, post: 2818509, member: 169"]I guess that's my thought as well...you can't prove a negative, you can only prove what you do have proof of. We know from Shannon's own testing that the very food she fed her birds was not contaminated. That alone should be enough to tell you that it was not the food. I get that she is very upset but why is she basically still stalking Zupreem. I'm surprised that Zupreem isn't suing her. She hasn't faced any consequences for her extreme actions. I get that she wants answers but this is not the way to get them. She has asked other people who fed the food and lost birds to come forward, but what good will that do other than to scare people? If you cannot confirm it is the food by either having the food tested and/or having necropsies done, it's a shot in the dark. You can't just link a death to the food because you fed it and your bird died. It seems that so many people have left their skills of reasoning at the door and let emotion get the better of them for whatever reason. There is nothing that connects the deaths of her birds to Zupreem. Absolutely nothing. Testing of all three foods show nothing. There was a single necropsy done on one of her birds and it is pointing most likely to an inhaled poison although it could not rule out an ingested poison. My vets looked at it and said most like inhaled though and I know other people have had their vets look at it and said the damage to the lungs was too much to be anything but. Everything is leading away from the food, especially the simple fact that the tests done on the food said there was nothing there. Are other birds dying? Sure...but you can't just say that because they ate the same food that the food is the problem...there is no indication that this is the case. Bring me some kind of proof that this is true and then I'll listen. Otherwise I really think that we need to stop defaming Zupreem regardless of how we feel about the company itself.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for writing this, Jen. You've made a very clear case. I did read that all the food had tested as okay, but I thought that because the FDA has taken on the case that there was something in the testing that warranted further investigation. But of course I've no idea what standard needs to be met to trigger FDA involvement. Also, in the avalanche of posts I guess I missed that only one bird had been necropsied. I thought most, if not all, had been examined. Perhaps the answer would have been forthcoming if more of the birds had been examined, but I'm sure cost was an issue there.
Regarding Zupreem, I realize they conducted themselves in a manner that some don't like. However, I've fed Zupreem Natural for many years, and continue to do so without concern for the safety of the food. I wonder how much business they've lost because of all this?
 

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I think the current line of thinking is a mycotoxin that would not have shown up in the initial lab report done by MSU
 

jmfleish

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I guess that's my thought as well...you can't prove a negative, you can only prove what you do have proof of. We know from Shannon's own testing that the very food she fed her birds was not contaminated. That alone should be enough to tell you that it was not the food. I get that she is very upset but why is she basically still stalking Zupreem. I'm surprised that Zupreem isn't suing her. She hasn't faced any consequences for her extreme actions. I get that she wants answers but this is not the way to get them. She has asked other people who fed the food and lost birds to come forward, but what good will that do other than to scare people? If you cannot confirm it is the food by either having the food tested and/or having necropsies done, it's a shot in the dark. You can't just link a death to the food because you fed it and your bird died. It seems that so many people have left their skills of reasoning at the door and let emotion get the better of them for whatever reason. There is nothing that connects the deaths of her birds to Zupreem. Absolutely nothing. Testing of all three foods show nothing. There was a single necropsy done on one of her birds and it is pointing most likely to an inhaled poison although it could not rule out an ingested poison. My vets looked at it and said most like inhaled though and I know other people have had their vets look at it and said the damage to the lungs was too much to be anything but. Everything is leading away from the food, especially the simple fact that the tests done on the food said there was nothing there. Are other birds dying? Sure...but you can't just say that because they ate the same food that the food is the problem...there is no indication that this is the case. Bring me some kind of proof that this is true and then I'll listen. Otherwise I really think that we need to stop defaming Zupreem regardless of how we feel about the company itself.
Thank you for writing this, Jen. You've made a very clear case. I did read that all the food had tested as okay, but I thought that because the FDA has taken on the case that there was something in the testing that warranted further investigation. But of course I've no idea what standard needs to be met to trigger FDA involvement. Also, in the avalanche of posts I guess I missed that only one bird had been necropsied. I thought most, if not all, had been examined. Perhaps the answer would have been forthcoming if more of the birds had been examined, but I'm sure cost was an issue there.
Regarding Zupreem, I realize they conducted themselves in a manner that some don't like. However, I've fed Zupreem Natural for many years, and continue to do so without concern for the safety of the food. I wonder how much business they've lost because of all this?
I'm not sure that the FDA is involved. From what I understand, Shannon got the State equivalent of the FDA involved and they handed it over to the Federal department but that from there, there was nothing said either way. I've looked up on their web site and can find nothing and I know that other people have called the state and the state says they are no longer involved. You ask Shannon for this information and she can't give you a name or a case number. As for aflatoxins, the symptoms are all wrong. You'd have severely failing liver and other organs and no tissue damage in the lungs. Too much damage in the lungs points to something inhaled. I know that Shannon must be devastated by these deaths but it does no one any good to keep blaming a food that has pretty much been tested and tested again to show absolutely nothing wrong with it. Chances are pretty good that we will never know what killed her birds. Common sense points to the fact that it was not the food.
 

Garet

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Yeah, I still don't know of any toxin- fungal or otherwise- that spreads to the lungs within minutes of being ingested and kills a whole bunch of birds at once.

Even if this was a build-up over weeks or months, they shouldn't have all died at the same time, afaik?
 

camelotshadow

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The best scholars in the world once thought the world was flat. We have come light years ahead of that time but we still can't know everything.

I have not followed all the details but am I still to believe they don't know what caused it?

I don't know all the facts but some of the mixed feelings stem from the way Zupreem handled the claim... I suppose they can't run thousands of dollars of tests every time a bird dies & they can't get emotional as they just make food & have no other attachment to these birds but maybe they should take a look at that public management employee who could have been more diplomatic & sensitive so it seems they care about the birds & not just the profit.

Guess we just all want to know what happened.
 

finchly

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Let’s pretend I’m Zupreem’s director of operations. You call up and say “my bird died.”

Do you have a test that shows it was caused by our food? No. Did the vet call after a necropsy and say we’ve got a problem? No.

So I say to myself hmm we have millions of birds eating it and one died. No need to worry myself any further.... even 11 or 20 or 30 birds I’m not going to panic over it, it’s stil not statistically significant especially since they all dropped at once.

I’ve said before, I’m surprised Zupreem has not sued her or at least put a cease and desist (?) order on her.
 

rocky'smom

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I am my phone so I can't transfer the link that I have been reading but it talks about mycotoxins in grains. Www.fao.org/wairdocs/x5008e/x5008e1.htm
It's interesting read worth the time to read
 

enigma731

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Let’s pretend I’m Zupreem’s director of operations. You call up and say “my bird died.”

Do you have a test that shows it was caused by our food? No. Did the vet call after a necropsy and say we’ve got a problem? No.

So I say to myself hmm we have millions of birds eating it and one died. No need to worry myself any further.... even 11 or 20 or 30 birds I’m not going to panic over it, it’s stil not statistically significant especially since they all dropped at once.

I’ve said before, I’m surprised Zupreem has not sued her or at least put a cease and desist (?) order on her.
Exactly. Plus they have to be careful what kind of precedent they set, or they're going to end up with people expecting them to bend over backwards every time any bird eating their food dies. Granted I haven't talked to them directly, but I don't actually think they've been unprofessional in any of their statements. They've given the impression of being compassionate, but not taking undue responsibility for a situation in which no scientific evidence has implicated them.
 

rocky'smom

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Ok after talking with Dr Tony he said that the mycotoxins could have been ground up into the slurry that makes up that pellets b/4 it's extruded and if and that is big IF it was not properly cooked or bake. It is possible he said.
 

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I don't understand why we're still talking about how mycotoxins could have gotten into the food when there were no mycotoxins in the food.

My laymans understanding is that the tests done only did most common.
 

camelotshadow

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I see fusarium...& the aspergillis from peanuts...Fusarium gets into the soil & infects tomatoes & cause a wilt which can kill the plant. Its possible in theory MAYBE for some of these to come from the soil??? Just a guess but I know this pathogen infects the soil & is hard to get rid of

Interesting how bad those can be even carcinogenic.

I suppose that is a plus for baked pellets vs cold pressed.

In general there are so many ways that our foods can be contaminated & cause of illness so we have to be careful for ourselves as well as our pets.

 

rocky'smom

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I don't understand why we're still talking about how mycotoxins could have gotten into the food when there were no mycotoxins in the food.
Unless you can show me proof, like the report, that they tested for every possible mycotoxins in this big wide world, sorry I am not going to believe just you. I agree with@ Mizzely they tested for the most common ones only.
Then again only will I believe anything that the FDA says after this case is CLOSED. ..
 

Garet

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Unless you can show me proof, like the report, that they tested for every possible mycotoxins in this big wide world, sorry I am not going to believe just you. I agree with@ Mizzely they tested for the most common ones only.
Then again only will I believe anything that the FDA says after this case is CLOSED. ..
But mycotoxins don't cause the symptoms found in the birds who had an autopsy done, I think? At least, none of the things I've read seem to suggest it.

It's like insisting on looking for fibrous material in the throat of someone who clearly drowned to death.
 

enigma731

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But mycotoxins don't cause the symptoms found in the birds who had an autopsy done, I think? At least, none of the things I've read seem to suggest it.

It's like insisting on looking for fibrous material in the throat of someone who clearly drowned to death.
Yep, that too.
 
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