I think Wonka laid a bloody and deformed egg!

[chompie_puppy]

If I take her to the vet they will legally have to put her to sleep. She is a feral and it is illegal to provide ferals with medical attention or to rehabilitate them.

 

[Billie Faye]

Personally, I would keep doing what you are doing for her....You have nothing to loose at this point and she has everything to gain....
This could have been the problem AND you could find out what type of "meds" you could give her for a more sever infection do to "egg absorption"...

 

[Danita]

See what happens in the next couple of days, she is getting better

 

[WingedVictory]

The more aggressive avian broad spectrum medications would be; Cipro, Clavamox, and Baytril. Maybe you have a source for these.

gary

 

[srtiels]

OK...as to peritonitus...the easisrt way to check is to part the feathers of her abdomen. The abdomen will look swollen and the skin is transparent and it will look like it has fluid in it (this is called ascites). the skin should be translucent. If the skin is a yellowish orange and opague then there has been an ongoing problem with peritonitus, and the discoloration is from the body trying to absorb the yolk...which is the most common thing that gets into the abdomen. Usually as it enters the oviduct, or from a tear in the oviduct.

If there is no evidence of peritonitus then that is great. BUT...antibiotics would still be needed, because of what she passed. Some of this would be absorbed thru the skin, especially if it spent a short amount of time in the cloaca. ANY type of broad spectrum antibiotics. What can you get, either from a vet or online. Such as Doxy or Baytil.

Since the pressure is off the intestines and kidneys the droppings should start to look normal. If the urates have a thin or chalky look you might want to add some cranberry juice to her drinking water. Or orally feed her a couple of drops several times a day.

 

[Kimba]

you would have to check the lower abdomen, as the it is the peritoneum that becomes infected and swells with fluid (ascites). Actually the fuild would be in between the visceral peritoneum and the peritoneum. The sternum as well as the muscles attached to the sternum that allow for flight would block any visual inspection as the peritoneum lines the organs which are obviously behind the breast bone, so you would want to look at the lower abdomen, where the breast bone ends. this swelling puts pressure on the organs. If left untreated, the infection will go systemic and a secondary infection will cause death. It is actually very hard to treat. The symptoms would be lethargy, diarrhea, the inability to gain weight, and the swelling described above.

Pigeons, will lay an egg 10 days after mating with a male, so the "egg" timing would be right, but not the formation. And if left in longer enough to develop......i don't see how that would be possible either, since the egg also gets it's oxygen from the outside world. Without oxygen, how would the egg be able to synthesize nutrients and grow? Form a blood supply to grow tissue? Blood takes oxygen and nutrients to cells, and takes up CO2, this gas exchange happens through the shell membrane.via the empty space that develops at the end of an egg. The tissue it self would suffocate. If it could even form tissue without oxygen? I wouldn't be thinking egg, I would be thinking possibly an encapsulated tumur. But anything is possible!

Anyway.....if she is feeling better, I would kept doing what you are doing, if you can get antibiotics, great! If not, supportive care. Pigeons are tough birds, if she is feeling better, hopefully she will continue to get better.

 

[di_dee1]

I can add nothing here but yes, a vet here will just euthanase, same as with galahs, sc2's.

SrTiels is here? yesssssssssssssssssss!!!!!
She is such a fund of knowledge!

 

[chompie_puppy]

Ok, I just got back from work and Wonka looks ok. I'm going to give her a warm bath now and then thoroughly inspect her vent, abdomen, etc.

Should I take and post photos?

I also have the following medication on hand:

- Baycox
- Doxyvet
- Flagyl
- Coccivet

What do I give her (if anything) and what dose?

 

[chompie_puppy]

I can't find any swelling or funny colour on her lower abdomen. It is a darkish pink colour. Maybe a little darker than the colour of a chicken breast (the type you buy in a supermarket, not a live chicken).

Actually, I'll be right back. I'm going to take some photos.

Oh, and she weighs 291g tonight. This morning she weighed 274g.

 

[waterfaller1]

Oh, and she weighs 291g tonight. This morning she weighed 274g.

That is good! Continued positive thoughts for a full recovery.

 

[chompie_puppy]

Here are the photos:

What do you guys think? Peritonitis?

 

[waterfaller1]

Those are really good photos. I hope the prognosis is good.

 

[chompie_puppy]

Thank you, I hope so too.

 

[Anne & Gang]

hopefully sr tiels will come back on and take a look....shes wonderful....I would keep on doing what you are doing...

 

[chompie_puppy]

I found out that Vetafarm can test droppings for me at a fee. I just have to send them a sample and they'll get back to me with the results. So that means they won't know I'm having a non-native pigeon's droppings tested.

However, I don't know what to test for (if anything). Here is a "copy" of the pricelist they gave me:

Veta-health Check - $30.20
Psittacosis Test - $21.80
Fecal Test for Worms/Coccidiosis - $12.10
Fecal Gram Stain for Megabacteria/Yeast/Bacteria - $18.10

Veta-health Check covers the following:
- Test involves a gram stain and worm test

Gram Stain covers the following:
- Fecal smear and examination
- Megabacteria test
- Yeast/Fungi (cannot identify specific organisms)
- Bacteria (cannot identify specific organisms - e.g. Salmonella)

Fecal Test for worms/coccidiosis covers the following:
- Worm test (can identify the worm type)
- Fecal floatation
- Coccidiosis test

Psittacosis Test covers the following:
- Psittacosis/Chlamydia test (Clearview)

Would any of these help Wonka?

 

[Billie Faye]

I found out that Vetafarm can test droppings for me at a fee. I just have to send them a sample and they'll get back to me with the results. So that means they won't know I'm having a non-native pigeon's droppings tested.

However, I don't know what to test for (if anything). Here is a "copy" of the pricelist they gave me:

Veta-health Check - $30.20
Psittacosis Test - $21.80
Fecal Test for Worms/Coccidiosis - $12.10
Fecal Gram Stain for Megabacteria/Yeast/Bacteria - $18.10

Veta-health Check covers the following:
- Test involves a gram stain and worm test

Gram Stain covers the following:
- Fecal smear and examination
- Megabacteria test
- Yeast/Fungi (cannot identify specific organisms)
- Bacteria (cannot identify specific organisms - e.g. Salmonella)

Fecal Test for worms/coccidiosis covers the following:
- Worm test (can identify the worm type)
- Fecal floatation
- Coccidiosis test

Psittacosis Test covers the following:
- Psittacosis/Chlamydia test (Clearview)

Would any of these help Wonka?

I am sure others will come on and give you help also...I highlited the one I would do at this point
The pictures look good and I don't see any problems, other than being thin...
The reason I didn't do the worm testing is because you have already given meds for worming and I don't know if that would hinder the testing...maybe someone else could give you an answer on that..and I don't know how much money you want to spend...

 

[chompie_puppy]

I'm more than willing to spend money on helping Wonka. I can definitely afford these tests (though this might mean that some family members might get some homemade gifts this year for Christmas ).

The gram stain test also looked the most promising to me. Thank you so much for all the help!

 

[WingedVictory]

Hi, nice to see Vetafarm does testing. I would opt for the fecal and the gram stain, they are your best options for the money. The Doxyvet you have should have a dosage on it, not sure if you have tablets or powder. Here is a link that has the Doxyvet dosages for powder and is a good pigeon resource. Australian Pigeon Company

gary

 

[chompie_puppy]

Ok, I'll grab a fresh sample of her droppings tomorrow morning and then send it to them express. I'll do both the fecal and the gram stain.

The Doxyvet I have was prescribed to me by my avian vet for one of my budgies in September. It is in one of those brown dispensing bottles. One like this:

The only dosage on it is the one for my budgie. It is also the liquid form of Doxyvet. I gave it to my budgie directly in her beak.

I might be able to pick up some Vetafarm Doxyvet tomorrow at a pet shop. They should have the dosage rate on it. However, I think they only give the dosage to mix it in the water. Is this ok? I know my avian vet only ever recommend I give antibiotics by beak to make sure the right dosage is given.

 

[Beatriz Cazeneuve]

you would have to check the lower abdomen, as the it is the peritoneum that becomes infected and swells with fluid (ascites). Actually the fuild would be in between the visceral peritoneum and the peritoneum. The sternum as well as the muscles attached to the sternum that allow for flight would block any visual inspection as the peritoneum lines the organs which are obviously behind the breast bone, so you would want to look at the lower abdomen, where the breast bone ends. this swelling puts pressure on the organs. If left untreated, the infection will go systemic and a secondary infection will cause death. It is actually very hard to treat. The symptoms would be lethargy, diarrhea, the inability to gain weight, and the swelling described above.

Pigeons, will lay an egg 10 days after mating with a male, so the "egg" timing would be right, but not the formation. And if left in longer enough to develop......i don't see how that would be possible either, since the egg also gets it's oxygen from the outside world. Without oxygen, how would the egg be able to synthesize nutrients and grow? Form a blood supply to grow tissue? Blood takes oxygen and nutrients to cells, and takes up CO2, this gas exchange happens through the shell membrane.via the empty space that develops at the end of an egg. The tissue it self would suffocate. If it could even form tissue without oxygen? I wouldn't be thinking egg, I would be thinking possibly an encapsulated tumur. But anything is possible!

Anyway.....if she is feeling better, I would kept doing what you are doing, if you can get antibiotics, great! If not, supportive care. Pigeons are tough birds, if she is feeling better, hopefully she will continue to get better.

I agree 100% with Kimba. An egg would not be able to incubate inside the bird... unless you have some kind of mutant pigeon (which is not very likely -LOL). Embryos inside the egg cannot develop without the exchange of gasses done through the pores of the eggshell (that's why incubators need adequate ventilation). Besides, where's the yolk? An embryo needs a yolk to develop and there is nothing yellow and liquid in there. And there couldn't have been any peritonitis, either. If there were, the bird would have gotten worse instead of better, as she did. Besides, that's a clean vent and the abdomen is not swollen, at all. I don't know what that was but it did not look like an embryo to me. Half-developed embryos are not evenly pink like that thing was, you can see all the dark organs through the almost transparent skin (the eyes been the most obvious). And it wouldn't have split the way that did, the embryo would have been in one piece. Plus, the white part did not look like eggshell at all.
As to tests, I would not bother doing the fecal, it would be a waste of money because this was not a GI problem and that's all the fecal can help you with. What you actually need is blood work and, if you can't get that, I would just keep on doing what you were doing with the exception of giving her enroflacin at a dosage of 1 ml every 12 hours. But, personally, I would just let her be and continue providing warmth, good food and fresh water.