Urgent Help! I am out of options..

[midsummermagic]

Please help!!! My parrot, Buddy, has been battling various medical issues for over a year now. The vets still don't know how to get whatever he's got under control. I have expended way beyond my budget in vet visits, tests, medicine, supplements, etc and have no more money left.

I am hoping someone can tell me what to do. Please don't tell me to go see a vet. I have hit a road block in that area as well. I even paid $250 to talk with an Avian Specialist and without several thousand dollars to run more tests he pretty much just laughed in my face and sent me packing. Again, please don't tell me to go see a vet.. you will upset me.

I have started compiling a website of all the steps I have taken and the test results etc. It is still in the working, but I am pushing to get the stuff up there ASAP.. in case I happen across a knowledgeable person with more hopeful insight.. The address is Home - A Girl and Her Bird

Description of Illness:
I started realizing he was sick when I could hear his tummy gurgle.. and then I really noticed the sound he makes when he's breathing and also that he seemed to regurgitate more often than normal. So I brought him to the vet who did the normal fecal and sent me home with antibiotics.. to make a long story short everything got worse and we were afraid he might have aspergillosis. More tests resulted in finding he had both bacterial & fungal infections and candida. He's taken a ton of medicine over this last year and in addition an x-ray revealed he has an enlarged/overtaxed liver and possibly an enlarged heart. He's also had diarrhea and abnormal stools for so long I can't remember what a normal one looks like. In the last month or so he's had blood in his stool with a lot of fluid. I just switched him to baby parrot formula because of the difficulty swallowing.

Description of Today:
Buddy hasn't gotten to the place where he is sleeping all day or on the floor of his cage.. which is why I am still fighting. I stopped giving him pellets because it seemed to be difficult for him to swallow and I can't get him to eat pellets that aren't colored. I am giving him as many nutritious things I can think of as well as the Exact baby bird formula to hopefully equal the nutrition he gets from the pellets. Some of the foods I give him are egg, sweet potato organic baby food, snap peas, buckwheat waffles, applesauce. I have a whole bag full to the max of supplements and medicine I will list at the bottom. I am unsure of what to give him and currently am giving him only soft food with no supplements trying to give his system a break.

Through all the vet visits we tried to guess the illness he has by percentile of possibility. I even went to see a spirit medium and a small animal naturopath. At this point I am overwhelmed, confused, and can't see clearly. The highest possiblity is he has papilloma virus (HPV), with a fatty overtaxed liver, and possibly an obstruction in the upper chest area and/or possibly near the vent. The fungus, bacteria, and candida seem to be secondary illness caused by the main issues. He is still very alive, vocal, and active. Most people think I am exaggerating when I say he is sick.

Ideas for Treatment:
I read a post about a parrot having HPV and them treating it with Bee Propolis. This parrot has almost all the same symptoms as mine: Papillomatosis | New Life Parrot Rescue I haven't given it to him more than a couple times because I feel frozen with fear and confusion. I have so many supplements and possibilities that sound like it should help, but nothing feels like the right answer. If something is stuck the only options I have are without surgical intervention.. massage.. light enema..? Prayer.. I don't know. It's been a grueling five years personally and I just want my friend back. I'm tired. Please help.

Supplements:
* Curcumin/Tumeric (helps with liver and HPV)
* Slippery Elm (coats the GI tract, a safe herb)
* Milk Thistle (liver nourishment)
* Bee Propolis (HPV, staves off bacteria and fungus)
* Colloidal Silver (fights bacteria.. currently I put a few drops in his water)
* L-Lysine (HPV)
* Vetri-DMG (Liver support)
* Liquid Immuno (by Rx Vitamins for Pets - Immune support)
* Liquid Hepato (by Rx Vitamins for Pets - Liver cleanse)
* Thorne Myco-Immune (Mushroom combination for immune support & fights infection)
* Si Miao San (Chinese formula)
* Baytril
* Nystatin
* Terbinaphine w/Mucomyst for nebulization
* Meloxicam (for pain)

I'm afraid to give him any more conventional medicine because it seems to be hard on his liver.. Yesterday I was leaning towards Curcumin and Bee Propolis. Today I am leaning toward the two Chinese formulas. I don't know.. .. please help.

 

[camelotshadow]

Gosh that's a lot to ask from those of us who are not vets. The most we can give is advise & no advise is a substitute for vet care.

It's good he was tested for the fungus bacteria's & candida etc & was given antibiotics & hope that cleared that.
Why are you still giving him antibiotics & fungal medications? Terbinaphine is I read is hard on the liver.

Heard good things about Milk Thistle & the liver.

Chinese herbs I would refrain from using especially if they re made for humans. One never knows whats in them or the amounts & birds are very small & some herbs even safe for humans or dogs & cats could be toxic to birds in large concentrations. These are not regulated.

You should not be giving unprescribed or prescribed medicines to your bird after the prescribed time period.
Some of them can cause interactions & are not meant to be used all the time. Overuse of antibiotics can just make things worse & can wipe out the normal good bacteria which they need.

Blood is not good in the stool. He's bleeding internally somehow. Ulcer. tumor, parasites or so many other things as I am not
qualified to even begin to diagnose or can even a vet without examination or tests.

No knowledge of HPV

It's also concerning he is having troubling swallowing. Perhaps his throat is sore or he has some obstruction or growth.
I looked at your website. It says he has oral plaques that they were going to remove.

I googled oral plaques & came up with this.

We could guess all day but found this & its got similar symptoms. Has he been checked for this?

Trichomonas gallinae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I feel your pain but I'm afraid you can not diagnose or treat your bird from advise on a website.

I know you've tried with the vet & I saw they thought it might be a immune disorder as the infections were reoccuring.
Were the vets avian vets?

I can only tell you to be careful with all your medicines & concoctions.
Blood in the stool is not something you can wish away unless its some dye from his food.

I read & searched for over an hour. I'm sorry to upset you but I still think he needs a vet.

 

[zoo mom]

I have no experience with this type of thing but @Hankmacaw might have some knowledge or experience that may be beneficial.

 

[ncGreyBirdLady]

I'm so sorry that You are having such a time with Your Fid I am definitely not a vet,but it sure seems to me that the diagnosis of papilloma virus is spot on.He seems to be effected with both oral and cloacal.This is a pretty good article about it.Winged Wisdom Pet Bird Magazine - Papillomatosis Disease in Birds
Have You tried to get Care Credit to help with treatment.It sounds as though he has oral lesions that are making it hard to swallow and clocal lesions that are making the blood in his stool and the bad droppings.These lesions can sometimes be surgically removed or laser treatment.Vitamin A in the diet is very important for birds suffering from this.Sadly,there is no cure-but there are some things that you can look into(laser treatment)Personally I would stop ALL of the Supplements that Your using except for the L-Lysine and the milk thistle.IF it is Papillaoma lesions,none of the suppliments are doing anything to help.Try to be sure he gets sufficient Vitamin A and check into care credit,Again-I'm not a vet by any means-this is just My opionion. Please keep us informed on how he is doing.Oh-what is his name and how old is He? also Jimmy is 32/33 years old and has HPV.

 

[Milo]

What sort of advanced diagnostics have the vets done? Has he had a CT or a barium study done? Both of those would help to see his GI tract more clearly and potentially get you some answers.

How is he mentally? Does he take his meds well? Is he holding his weight?

I know you said that you don't want a vet involved, but I really wouldn't be mixing that many meds without a vet's advice. You may be overdosing in some or causing reactions with another. I understand your fear of overtaxing his liver, but even the "natural" remedies can do that if you're not careful or use the wrong combination.

 

[Hankmacaw]

First, I want to advise you that I am for the most part against using "herbal remedies". You do need a vet to coordinate his treatment and run tests to monitor his progress and provide his knowledge.

"Supplements:
* Curcumin/Tumeric (helps with liver and HPV)
* Slippery Elm (coats the GI tract, a safe herb)
* Milk Thistle (liver nourishment)
* Bee Propolis (HPV, staves off bacteria and fungus)
* Colloidal Silver (fights bacteria.. currently I put a few drops in his water)
* L-Lysine (HPV)
* Vetri-DMG (Liver support)
* Liquid Immuno (by Rx Vitamins for Pets - Immune support)
* Liquid Hepato (by Rx Vitamins for Pets - Liver cleanse)
* Thorne Myco-Immune (Mushroom combination for immune support & fights infection)
* Si Miao San (Chinese formula)
* Baytril
* Nystatin
* Terbinaphine w/Mucomyst for nebulization
* Meloxicam (for pain)
I'm afraid to give him any more conventional medicine because it seems to be hard on his liver.. Yesterday I was leaning towards Curcumin and Bee Propolis. Today I am leaning toward the two Chinese formulas. I don't know.. .. please help."

The thing about the conventional medications is that you know if they are/are not hard on any of the systems, because there has been clinical and controlled testing done on them. The majority of "natural/herbal" items have never had any clinical tests performed on their effects, but rely on anecdotal stories - that's not good enough for me. Who knows what the synergistic properties are when two or more herbs are used together. Milk Thistle is one of the few exceptions, in that there have been clinical tests performed on it's effectiveness and it's side effects. MT is the "go to" medication for liver issues for most Dr.s and Vets.

Terbinaphine does not effect the liver or kidneys when used for nebulization. But there are far better fungicides - amphotericin B is by far the best for nebulization (the only medication that kills fungus instead of just interfering with it's reproductive process), but it can be used for only a short period of time, then you must switch to conzol or something similar. Amphotericin B is terribly damaging to the liver when given by injection or infused. Voriconazole is one of the newest azoles that is very effective against fungal infections and has little to no effect on the liver. I and others who have used it highly recommend it.

Vetri-DMG is not basically for liver support, but enhances the entire immune system. I have used it several times in the past with some success. I have found that RPO and Flax Oil as a consistent part of my bird's diet is very effective at boosting the immune system and giving her a beautiful appearance. An article abut RPO; Red Palm Oil - Healthy Vitamin A Source for Parrot Diet | Caring for Parrots | Parrot Behavior | The Bird School by Ann Castro
Flaxseed Oil: Flaxseed contains one of the highest counts of Omega-3 fatty acids. The seeds are difficult to break down in order to extract the oils, so offering the pressed oil is best. The only downside of this process is that producing the oil removes the lignans, hormone-like substances that act as an antioxidant. However, flaxseed oil can be purchased with lignans, so your birds can also benefit from these helpful compounds. Flaxseed oil assists the circulatory system by removing potentially harmful LDL cholesterol and increasing the healthy HDL cholesterol. Why Essential Oils Are Good For Your Bird Do not feed whole flax seeds - they are too small for your bird to shell and difficult to digest.

Baytril (enrofloxicin) is a very good broad spectrum antibiotic, but does have a tendency to make some birds nauseous. Doxycycline is another excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. I personally never administer an antibiotic without having a culture and sensitivity done by the vet. By having a sensitivity done you are using an antibiotic that is specific to the specific bacteria involved.

Always, always give probiotics when you are giving your bird fungicides and/or antibiotics and for a week after you stop the medications. I and many others use this probiotic; http://www.amazon.com/Avitech-AviBi...2120172&sr=1-10&keywords=probiotics+for+birds

I can't say one positive thing about colloidal silver. First it is a heavy metal and silver accumulates at the cellular level and cannot be gotten rid of other than by chelation. Second there is no, none empirical evidence that colloidal silver does anything except turn people blue.

Slippery Elm is good for birds who are experiencing a lot of regurgitaion and throwing up, but it does coat the digestive system and can stop nutrients from their food and the effect of antibiotics. You shouldn't give within an hour to 1 1/2 hour of them eating or receiving
medications. I use metraclopromide for extreme nausea and sometimes 1/2 cc of "Pepto Bismo".

If your bird is in pain definitely keep giving him Mloxicam - pain in itself can be debilitating.

The human papilloma virus and the avian papilloma virus are two different animals and treatment for one does not necessarily translate to treatment for the other. "Papillomaviruses are a large group of pathogens that cause epithelial proliferations in a wide spectrum of vertebrate species. More than 100 different human papillomaviruses (HPV) have been isolated [1, 2]. Such an extensive genotype variety has not yet been detected in nonhuman species, although papillomavirus genomes have been isolated from many species where careful investigational efforts were made [3, 4]. Most papillomaviruses appear to be species-specific or at least restricted to infection of closely related animals within the same genus. Papillomavirus genomes have been cloned from 20 mammalian host species. Thus far, only two avian papillomavirus genomes were cloned, one from a chaffinch and the second from a parrot papilloma. To date no complete avian papillomavirus genome had been sequenced."
Avian papillomaviruses: the parrot Psittacus erithacus papillomavirus (PePV) genome has a unique organization of the early protein region and is phylogenetically related to the chaffinch papillomavirus | BMC Microbiology | Full Text

If it were me, I would toss the rest of the stuff in the trash. I'm not a vet, but have had 18 years of experience (with close management by my vet) with two very ill parrots.

 

[painesgrey]

I (personally) think it's important for people to try to abide by the same ethical standards that vets must abide by. It's irresponsible to suggest diagnoses or treatments (including medications and dosages) for an animal with which we have no personal experience. We are not a veterinary community, and while we have a knowledge of our experiences (which amount to only anecdotes, really) and online resources, we simply cannot act as a proper substitute for a vet with clinical experience that has access not only to in-person examinations, but also a wide variety of tests.

There are, however, other communities of veterinary professionals online (/r/AskVet on reddit is one) where you can post and hopefully get some insight. They, too, will not be able to provide a diagnoses or suggest any treatment plans, but they can look over what radiographs and test results you provide to perhaps suggest other options that you would have to address with a vet in-person.

From your website, I see that most of your veterinary visits have been with Dr. Chapman and Dr. De La Torre at the same veterinary practice. At any time have either of them suggested a referral to an avian specialist or any other veterinary specialist? Sometimes it takes a specialist (internal medicine, virology, etc) to be able to pinpoint effective treatment plans in these troublesome cases.

 

[rockybird]

If you think your bird has liver damage, than some herbal treatments could put him into liver failure. I would in no way use any herbal or nonherbal type medications without a vet's okay. This is what I would do:
-Get a second opinion from another vet
-Ask for additional imaging studies.

I'm sorry you and Buddy are going through this. Hopefully, you can find the cause of his symptoms. But I would definitely seek a second opinion.

 

[midsummermagic]

I apologize for pasting this from my reply to another forum.. but I have limited time this morning after writing that reply. So please forgive me - much of the same applies. It hopefully will spell out where I am at right now more clear.

In addition I want to add that I cannot afford a Barium test right now - which would probably be the next step. My Care Credit is maxed out. The payments are almost as large as a car payment!

<<< My reply from the other forum >>>

Thank you for your replies. I understand that it is probably impossible to visit a forum and not have a wide array of viewpoints and opinions. I accept the chaos..

I realize my post is not entirely representative of the road I have been on.. but it is really difficult to put a years worth of struggle into a single post. I have seen the vet(s) over 30 times this year.

To address the comments (many thanks for your input - I respect every single one of them) and hopefully zoom in clearer..

* I don't haphazardly give supplements. I have gone over every single one of them with my vet and also a naturopath who specializes in small animals.

* I am not giving all the supplements at once! Lol. This is just my medicine cabinet from this last year.

* I have gone as far as I can with conventional medicine. Every vet I have seen is trained to treat birds. They are not cat and dog only vets. I love my vet. He is kind, honest, and very knowledgeable. He has done the best he can and has been very generous only charging for a recheck each time I come in.

* I have gone to other avian vets in an attempt to see if they can see anything new with all the data.. a possible answer my vet can't see. No dice. Everyone agrees that we are at this point just managing a chronic illness.

* I went to see a bird specialist as a last resort. Just to get his opinion. He is one out of 10 bird only specialists in the US. He was rude and unkind. He tried to get me to have my bird re-sexed for $100 because I didn't have papers to prove he's male (yes, he's had a DNA test).

* I believe in herbal medicine and nutrition. I also believe in conventional medicine. I believe they should "talk". I knew this was serious so I have had my bird on every anti-fungal, antibiotic, anti-bacterial medicine there is. I have had cultures grown and medicine customized for the culture. I have had bloodwork and x-rays. I have had specialists evaluate the results. I am at the end of the road with vets and I will not pay any more money to see another one.. not because I don't like them, but because it's not working.

* I believe in Chinese Medicine. I have a chronic bladder issue (interterstial cystitis) and had not luck with conventional medicine and urologists. At one point I couldn't sleep for 5 days it was so bad. I was like a walking zombie. I hobbled around on my bike to every alternative place I could find begging someone to see if their treatment would work and to trade for website work because I was out of money. I finally stumbled on a medium who said she sees a Chinese man helping me. She said it was probably an acupuncturist. I found one to trade with me and felt relief the very first treatment. I now only have to see an acupuncurist once a year and balance my diet to keep it under control. I also have had a bladder infection that almost went to my kidneys cured by Chinese herbs just as conventional medicine would only I didn't end up with a secondary infection. For these reasons I add these systems of thought to my understanding of valid possibilities. (Note: Not all spirit mediums are out to take your money.)

* Baytril and medicines of the like are seriously deteriorating his liver. I can't give him any more.

* I do realize that not all supplements go together which is why I have conflicting thoughts on different days. I don't know which route to go. Chinese medicine? or Curcumin & Bee Propolis.. (are they complimentary?) The Chinese formula is customized for birds. It is a very common one meant to help with excess dampness, inflammation, and help him digest fluids better. It goes with the Mushroom formula which strengthens the immune system. Curcumin and Bee Propolis have a lot of properties that go hand in hand with Liver, GI tract, and HPV issues (also widely given to birds safely if the doseage is correct) and both have posts from the internet helping parrots with similar issues. Two very different approaches. Last week I was taking the logical approach of trying to attack the problem.. this week I feel his body needs to get into balance.

* Today he is off everything except this morning I gave him the two Chinese formulas to see how he reacts.

* My thoughts are that if HPV can be controlled in humans there is a way to control it in animals. The liver can be nourished as best as possible. If there is an obstruction .. well .. I can't afford surgery so anything else is just a long shot. Massage can't hurt and will probably stimulate his circulation and energy points for good health anyways. Is it bad to squirt some water up his vent if I do it sparingly? He has a growth right on the inside of his vent. There must be something natural I can apply topically to help it retract..

Blessings to everyone who too the time out to reply to me I am so grateful! (((*.*))) :green1:

Oh, I almost forgot the good stuff, Lol. Buddy is about 24 years old. I got him when he was 8 from a dying man whose wife didn't want to get stuck with the bird. I didn't plan on getting a parrot, but my boyfriend at the time convinced me. So the story goes.. boyfriend gone, bird still here. We have grown really close over the years. He is an avid music lover and I take him with me to my artists group every week in his little birdy backpack. I love the drive there because he is like a little kid in my front seat singing at the top of his lungs to the tunes on the radio. He loves Frank Sinatra, Rockabilly, and that song Livin' On A Prayer (by Bon Jovi). We are right now.. Livin' On A Prayer

Much Love <3 Please pray for me and my bird. xo

 

[SandraK]

@midsummermagic I am going to recommend that you try contacting Dr. Scott McDonald - Scott E. McDonald - I don't know where you are in this world of ours but Dr. Scott lives in Illinois and is a travelling vet. He's seen some of my fids and is a good avian vet. I'm going to suggest that you contact him and ask if he can do you the favor of looking over your bird's health history. He is usually intrigued by issues that other vets have been unable to address and I'd say has a pretty wide net of contacts. You can tell him that Sandra Kassabian referred you to him.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained so you have nothing to lose. Hopefully Dr. Scott will be able to help you or at least point you in the direction of someone who can.

 

[rockybird]

You are taking a risk when you give your bird supplements, especially Chinese supplements. People have died and gone into liver failure from CHinese supplements.

I would NOT squirt water up your birds vent. If there truly is an HPV related growth, you could risk spreading it. HPV is NOT controlled in humans once an infection is in place. It can only be managed by surgery, cryotherapy, etc. But these procedures will not eliminate the virus, only the grossly visible effects of the virus. If your bird has a growth, than it should be evaluated by a veterinarian. HPV related growths can range from harmless warts to invasive squamous cell carcinoma. Why didn't the previous vets remove it?

 

[midsummermagic]

Thank You SandraK (my Mom's name is Sandra K. too, lol). I will most certainly try. I will find him tonight after I get more stuff up on my website.

The other vets didn't remove it because it needs to be removed surgically and I cannot afford that and testing.. which at the time we were still attacking the Fungus, Bacteria, and Candida. It is only in the past two months or so the Papilloma Virus really seemed to weigh heavier as a possibility.

I am taking in any and all information and opinions people have. Though at some point there is always a risk to do anything.. I have him under careful observation. Thank you. I will definitely be wary.

 

[rockybird]

It is good that you are seeking vet care and I am sorry you cannot afford the surgical procedure. Did they think the surgical procedure was urgent, or that it could wait? Since your bird's liver function is compromised, I really would abstain from any supplement use not approved by a vet. Please let us know what SandraK's vet has to offer.

 

[Milo]

I'm not sure where you're located, but Dr. Welle at the university of illinois is also excellent. He does consultation with vets all the time (and doesn't charge)

 

[Bokkapooh]

What have your avian vets done? Blood work? Fecal and throat swabs and testings? Xrays?

 

[midsummermagic]

Thank you Milo.. I will send the information to him as well.

Bokkapooh, yes, I have done all.

Here is a link to pictures of Buddy and a couple funny videos: About - A Girl and Her Bird

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Your Buddy is precious. I have no knowledge or advice but please please let us know how you and Buddy are doing. I know we can go to your blog. I just pray something can be done for Buddy. It sounds like You are both fighting this with everything you've got.

I especially love the picture of a Buddy with TP on his head- his expression is hilarious.

 

[LunaLovebird]

I wanted to add some professional experience from my time as a chemist regarding the natural / Chinese herbs. I once worked in a lab that had ties with a small pharmaceutical company here in QLD. We did a lot of testing of Chinese herbs for them to see what was in there in the hopes we could source some potentially active ingredients. In almost all cases, the herbal samples in question not only did not contain the stuff they said they did, they also often contained things that were toxic and dangerous to human health. It's fine if you want to go ahead and use that for yourself, but please do not put your bird at risk by giving them that stuff. It is not helpful for him, and could be making the situation worse.

 

[Beth In Alaska]

Have you had imaging done? I wonder about obstruction of some sort with the difficulty swallowing? Not sure if enlarged liver can cause that. Could there be tumors?

 

[Begone]

Do you still feed him peanuts?