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Dominance and lovebirds?

Magala

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Donna Lucchesi
I have had dogs as pets most of my life and I have had birds for 11 years, (cockatiel, Cleo and parakeet - RIP Chico) and now two lovies, Gatsby and Olive.

My previous heart dog, Maggie, was a dominant girl and challenged me up until she became too sick to do so. She succumbed to oral melanoma 6 years ago. So I became very adept at handling a dominant dog, and it wasn't always fun for her or me.

Anyway, to my point... I've been reading on this forum that there is no such thing as dominance with our lovebirds. Is this really true?

My Olive, aka Grumperina, can be very, very nasty and her bites hurt! She's bitten thru 2 layers of bandaids on my finger... Grrrrrr. I try not to give her a reaction to her bites, but sometimes it's impossible. :omg:

I've learned to let her come out of her cage when she wants to, because when I go in to have her step up, she warns me and believe you me, I definitely heed her warning. Now when she goes up to my shoulder or my head, I was told by the vet techs to get her below my eye level because of the dominance issue. I'm fine with her sitting on my shoulder and burrowing in my shirt. Most times she gets much too excited and I need to remove her....that's when the fun begins. Will she be a good birdie and step up or will she bite???? It's always a gamble. The same goes when she flits off and lands on the table... Behave or fluff up, head down and beak ready???? Sometimes she'll allow me to scratch her neck and head, sometimes I get the beak. What's a momma to do? :nervous::scared5:


Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

LunaLovebird

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It sounds like she's afraid of your hands. Possibly her previous owners grabbed at her a lot. I would try and move her around using a perch instead, and work on associating your hands with good things. Offer her treats, drop sunflower seeds into her bowl while she watches and be patient. It will take time, but if you go at her pace and respect her wishes, you won't get bit as much.

Honestly, the height dominance thing is rubbish. Birds go to higher places because that's where it's safe.
 

Magala

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Thanks for your response. That's what confuses me. Olive will step up and step down for me just about anywhere but from inside her cage and from the kitchen table when she comes out of her cage by herself.
She even reaches towards me from their playground to sit with me and our dog; he's more concerned than she is, lol. She steps onto my finger willingly and will then let me scratch her, but I always ask her first. Oy!

She's almost 3 years old and very used to being handled. Her "other mom" has told me that when Olive isn't hormonal, she is the sweetest bird ever.

I'm thinking that our relationship is going to be based on Olive making the rules, but is this the proper way to train or live with a lovie? My cockatiel is so docile and I've never had any biting issues with her.
 

LunaLovebird

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Okay, so then it's just her being territorial. That isn't unusual. How big is the cage? Letting Olive set the rules is the best way to earn her respect, which in turn will make life easier for both of you. Lovebird girls won't let you do it any other way, haha.

As a side note, I strongly urge you to not have your dog out when your birds are out. It is stressful for both, and one playful nip or swipe from pup can be all it takes for your bird to wind up maimed or dead.
 

Magala

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That's what I thought, it's gonna be Olive's way or the highway, lol. I'm ok with that and I am well stocked with bandaids, lol. :lol:

As for our dog and the birds, including Cleo, are never left unsupervised. Petey pretty much avoids them at all costs... It's ironic as he is a bird dog. 20140608_205606.jpg
 

SamandWilley

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The family that I am getting my new baby from teaches their birds to come out of the cage to step up. I have also seen people put a perch on the outside. This way, the bird gets to decide AND you don't have to put your hand in their territory. Except for feeding, of course! LOL! But, I think it is a great idea to have them come out before they step up. Most of the birds are happy to come out to step up! When they are not, don't bother! LOL!!
 

fluffypoptarts

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That's what I thought, it's gonna be Olive's way or the highway, lol. I'm ok with that and I am well stocked with bandaids, lol. :lol:
Well it's good that that's out of the way now! :D Far less painful for the human that realizes that lovie hen shall make all the rules. :p

As for our dog and the birds, including Cleo, are never left unsupervised. Petey pretty much avoids them at all costs... It's ironic as he is a bird dog.
Doesn't matter, you could never move fast enough to save the birds if the dog a) had an accident, or b) his instincts suddenly kicked in. Trust me on this. We've read this story and these assertions many times, only to later read the tragic story of horribly dead bird(s). It's really not worth the risk.
 

Magala

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Thanks for the great advice. I'd never forgive myself if anything happens to my fids and I could have prevented it. :crycry:
 

CallieCadmoor

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Eros is believed to be a boy but I haven't had him sexed yet... I might when he is older though.
When he was younger, hands were a no go and biting was his thing. I've found having him unclipped helped a lot with the biting. I also recently (a week ago) got him a new cage which has also helped! He does however get very nippy when I try get him off the poor soul he has picked to terrorise (he has a thing for noses, finger nails, feet and jewellery) and I use his chew stick which he readily steps up onto.
Generally he hops out his cage by himself but he 9 out of 10 times will step up when I put my hand in. I only do this when we are in his normal environment (my bedroom) and I got him used to my hands being around by first putting them on the outside bars then food in my palm by the door and finally food on my hand inside the cage. He refuses food through the bars from anyone but me which I think is a good thing.
I haven't found that how high he is to affect how dominant he acts... He seems just as happy to snuggle into my hair as he is to sit on top of my head or ride on my pants buckle and bites just the same when he has to go back to his cage:eek:
I've heard female lovies can be very different but this is just my experiences with my Eros:joyful:
 

Monica

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My previous heart dog, Maggie, was a dominant girl and challenged me up until she became too sick to do so. She succumbed to oral melanoma 6 years ago. So I became very adept at handling a dominant dog, and it wasn't always fun for her or me.
What if I were to say that dominance doesn't exist in dogs, either? The idea of "dominance" or "alpha", was from taking wolves from the wild that had no relationship with each other and sticking them together in a confined enclosure. The wolves couldn't get away from one another.

A wolf pack is made up of a family and *maybe* a straggler(s). What people once thought were the "alpha pair" are in fact the parents to most, if not all, of the pack. In that sense, you would show "courtesy" to your elders, because they are your elders. It's not random animals coming together to form a pack, it's a family.


Anyway, to my point... I've been reading on this forum that there is no such thing as dominance with our lovebirds. Is this really true?
True. As others have stated.


My Olive, aka Grumperina, can be very, very nasty and her bites hurt! She's bitten thru 2 layers of bandaids on my finger... Grrrrrr. I try not to give her a reaction to her bites, but sometimes it's impossible.
Stop getting bit!

I know, easier said than done! But the only bite that can't be rewarded is the bite that never occurs. If you never put your lovebird in a position that will result in a bite, and you learn to back off before she bites, she'll learn she doesn't need to bite!

If she *DOES* bite, get her off you! Try to do so gently, but don't be stupid and just allow her to chomp down on your flesh! I mean, if she were a dog tearing in your flesh, I doubt you'd just stand there and allow the dog to continue tearing into you until the dog stops biting.

The best thing to do is to figure out why the bite occurred in the first place, then try to figure out what you can do in the future to avoid those bites. Merely ignoring the bite and not doing anything about it is only teaching her to continue biting and possibly to bite harder. This also leads to "bites out of nowhere" because she has stopped warning you she's going to bite and will go straight for the bite itself. If she ever stops biting from a human ignoring her bites, then this would be learned helplessness. That is, regardless of the outcome of the situation, she has no say in it. This is not a healthy mentality.


I've learned to let her come out of her cage when she wants to, because when I go in to have her step up, she warns me and believe you me, I definitely heed her warning.
That's fantastic! As others have mentioned, it may help to feed her treats while she's at her cage or even putting a perch on the outside of the cage. One of the main reasons that birds become "cage aggressive" is because they are forced out of their cages. It doesn't matter how friendly and nice the bird is away from the cage, they have a negative association with hands around their cages which results in this aggression. If they are trained through positive reinforcement, they can learn to step up from their cages without biting!

Now when she goes up to my shoulder or my head, I was told by the vet techs to get her below my eye level because of the dominance issue.
I doubt most vet techs have any degrees in behavior sciences.... so it would be a good idea to ignore them.

If she's on your shoulder and you don't want her there, or she bites when she's up there, then you can try training her to walk down your arm for rewards. Likewise, give her something to entertain herself with, such as foot toys!


Check out the training forum! Be sure to look at all the sticky threads, too! Some fabulous advice in them! :D
 

Magala

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Thanks for the detailed information. Olive and I are beginning to get along with each other much better now. Part of her cranky behavior is hormonal and part cage dominance. Her bites are fewer and farther apart; I think we have a good future together!
 

Monica

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I would call it cage possessiveness or cage territoriality, but not cage dominance. Some birds have a negative experience leaving their cage, so they become defensive around it because they don't want to continue going through that negative experience. Learn to work with Olive, not against her. :)


It's good that the bites are becoming fewer!
 
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