Do you have full flight birds

[jmfleish]

I swore I would stay out of these discussions because I feel so strongly about flight. I will say that I totally understand that not everyone is in a position to keep their birds fully flighted and I respect that completely. I also think that a bird who is stuck in a cage fully flighted who would get out of a cage if clipped is better off clipped, but I also have to say that I agree with Prince to a degree. I don't understand why some who are on the exact opposite side of the clipping fence get so defensive on this subject and why they are so adamant about clipping and don't want to admit that flight does have advantages. I would like to think that I can see both sides even though I do think that a bird is better off fully flighted. I'd like to say that I don't judge those who do clip, but maybe those who do clip see me saying something that I don't see. I wish this subject didn't have to be so explosive. I don't think there's any doubt that a fully flighted bird is healthier, physically and mentally. You just can't match the exercise that flight gives your bird and I don't know how that point can be argued. Having said that though, for those who do clip, as long as they are aware that exercise is an issue, they have to find other ways around this, especially for the species that are prone to issues such as the greys, Amazons, Galahs, etc. I worry about this a lot because I have a 17 year old red tailed grey who is fully flighted but will not fly and I can't handle her, so I can't exercise her. This terrifies me because she is older and greys tend to have issues with heart problems. Having said that, I need to go as both of my grey snots are going to the vet today. This will be a huge issue that I will be talking to my vet about today as I'm very worried about Clancy and her health.

 

[Birdlover]

No one (IMO) is "made to feel ashamed" for clipping their birds if they currently think it is right in their situation. I don't feel it is the simple intent of any person who is against clipping to shame anyone but instead it is our intent to try our best (some do it better than others, agreed) to educate thru personal experience and by providing links (like Jill did, therefore I have no need to) to studies and testimonials from bird keepers and researchers who have discovered that it is in fact best for birds (physically, psycologically and physiologically) to be fully flighted and housed in safe accomodations, to enjoy all they were meant to be - short of free flighted up in the wild blue yonder. I don't see how that can be common-sensely or logically argued against. If so, I am listening?

You know PTB, I have never thought of it that way but you do bring up a point. I feel (and may be biased since I have flighted birds) that many that are passionate about it are saying why they are passionate about it and the reasons that brought them to that decision. In some ways it is not all that different than the topic of rescue/rehome and breeding. If you believe in something, you promote that ideal and shouldnt feel like you are the bad guy because you believe in it. Also one who wants to educate for their belief shouldnt be made to feel like the bad guy for doing so!

I hope that people who clip will read links and thoughts posted not as a condemnation on what they do, but with education in mind (afterall, that is why these threads are in the Airport forum, because we set it up as a place for those that want to learn more about keeping flighted birds).

At one time people didnt feed their birds as healthy of a diet as they do now, and what changed? People learned you must do more than throw seeds in a dish. When we close off to learning a different (maybe better) way of doing things, we and our birds lose out. It doesnt mean you have to change "right this second" but arent we all looking to the future of what we can do better for our birds?

 

[Bokkapooh]

I am just trying to understand why everyone (everywhere) does not diligently work towards making full flight safe for those birds in their flock that are capable of it (asap) instead of either simply arguing against it or making excuses for why they are not doing it or standing firm simply because they may feel that no one is going to tell them what to do. Isn't that what adolescents do. Aren't we as adults willing to always do our best to adopt a better way of doing things, if not the best way.

I cannot vouch for anyone else, but I once knew someone who had an african grey congo(just a baby too), and hey clipped him because he felt more in charge and in control of the bird...

My mom clips her birds. Well I clip them for her. And believe me I do it very lightly And I'll be honest they are trimmed fo rthe CONVENIENCE of my mom. Not because of safety or whatever noensense. Its a selfish but much needed reason.

I trim my mom's birds because she is ill, she cannot run around a bedroom to get a naughty bird to step up, if need be. So I do a light trim, so when they have the urge to feel naughty, they arent able to beam around the room above her head, where she cannot get them. And she uses positive reinforcement whenever possible, and especially after catching them. And she is working on recall training So they are still able to fly, in the sense, but not to their full capabilities if they were full flighted. They will remain trimmed for now. One day when they are able to be fully flighted, they will be. But for now, they cannot. The birds that get trimmed are the 2 quakers, a cockatiel and a lovebird.

However with that said. When Beeba my moms M2 is fully flighted (she has most of her secondaries all in, YAYAYYAY(but it coned for now, ask me if you want ot know more..)) she will, WILL, remain so .

 

[Bokkapooh]

I don't think there's any doubt that a fully flighted bird is healthier, physically and mentally. You just can't match the exercise that flight gives your bird and I don't know how that point can be argued.

Your whole post was nicely said, but I really believe this point really stuck out.

 

[Bokkapooh]

You know PTB, I have never thought of it that way but you do bring up a point. I feel (and may be biased since I have flighted birds) that many that are passionate about it are saying why they are passionate about it and the reasons that brought them to that decision. In some ways it is not all that different than the topic of rescue/rehome and breeding. If you believe in something, you promote that ideal and shouldnt feel like you are the bad guy because you believe in it. Also one who wants to educate for their belief shouldnt be made to feel like the bad guy for doing so!

I hope that people who clip will read links and thoughts posted not as a condemnation on what they do, but with education in mind (afterall, that is why these threads are in the Airport forum, because we set it up as a place for those that want to learn more about keeping flighted birds).

At one time people didnt feed their birds as healthy of a diet as they do now, and what changed? People learned you must do more than throw seeds in a dish. When we close off to learning a different (maybe better) way of doing things, we and our birds lose out. It doesnt mean you have to change "right this second" but arent we all looking to the future of what we can do better for our birds?

Jill, that was a fantastic post!!

 

[southernbirds]

Every time I go to a "bird only store" I ask the people who own or run the store and who have multiple birds at home what their opinion is regarding full flighted vs clipping. Overwhelming they say to clip because of birds flying away or accidents. I have to say that I have let my English Budgie be full flighted because he is kept in his own room and I close the door when I take him out. I am very careful. I also have two small dogs and they are kept out of the room when I take him out. However, if I got a larger bird, I would probably have him clipped. I would worry about him flying into everything. Whether it is unrealistic on my part, who knows, but that is what I think for now. I also worry that if I leave my little bird with anyone to watch, I may have to clip him so he accidentally does not escape from his cage. He did that once when I first bought him. So many situations and opinions to go with them.

 

[Riley's mom]

I agree that no one should be condemned for either keeping their birds clipped or not. Like was said, it's a personal choice. It's also personal beliefs. I have learned, over the years and in my profession, to be very "leary" about what I "research". About what to take to heart and what to toss over my shoulder. My birds are clipped for safety reasons. But I don't condem anyone for keeping their birds fully flighted. It is also for my own peace of mind. Everyone has their own opionion on this subject and their own reasons for clipping or not and those opionions should be respected.

 

[Birdlover]

Everyone has their own opionion on this subject and their own reasons for clipping or not and those opionions should be respected.

Absolutely

 

[Sophie's Mama]

OK so this is some can of worms opened, and I am truly amazed at some of the opinions.....First I live in a very active house, revolving doors, lots of kids, not a mansion, just a basic 2400 sq. ft. home. I have 7 dogs (all rescues) and 4 parrots. Clipping is a welfare issue. Health and Safety are my prime concern. I have listened to all the arguments stating that it is better for a bird to be flighted, and I agree, but lets be real....these are birds, the truly best thing for these creatures would be for them to be back in wild flying free in flocks of their own kind. Man kind made them pets. Now it is up to us to do the best we can for them. I think some of the most taken for granted pets there are aside of fish. How many of us have heard, "It's just a bird...". So if we want to be honest The fact that we keep birds flighted or not is beside the issue. They should be wild! Three of my birds were rescue, taken from bad situations with bad living conditions, lack of proper nutrition, some left alone in a room with no care, some crowded in cages with inappropriate cage mates, no exercise at all and then discarded when they decided they didn't want to DEAL with IT any more. I have given them proper caging, they are free in my home at all times unless we are sleeping, they have fresh foods and vitamins, appropriate vet care, lots of toys for stimulation. The best care I can give, but leaving them flighted could risk injury, escape, or accidents, and I choose not to put them in that condition. That does not make me uneducated or lacking in the skills to take care of these birds. I have read the research, and cling to every bit Ican along the way. I have not chosen to coop them into a "Bird Room", they are a part of the family and we love them, but they live in MY home, I do not run a zoo, or a aviary putting them on display, WE live in a home. We love them and because we love them we see to it that they cannot accidentally be let lose into a world not conducive to the welfare of a tropical bird. I hope to have an aviary cage made in our back yard for them to be outdoors part of the day, but remember that even a flighted bird is a CAPTIVE, you can't change that and all we can do is the best we can for our birds in our homes.

I applaud those who manage flighted homes, but for every flighted home out there that manages their birds with the utmost safety there are three on sites like Craig's List, Parrot Society meet ups or even here on Avian Avenue, trying to find the owner of a bird found lost, or an owner, heartbroken because their precious feathered friend got loose and has never been found....I live in Austin, it's sprinkling outside, because of the precautions I have made I know my birds are not lost or afraid in the bad weather.... Can you flighted owners understand that?

 

[itzmered]

Unfortunately many people are under the misconception that clipped birds can not fly away. This is so untrue. Ask my husband. Both of our birds that have a light clip got out the door on him and he spent over 2 hours trying to coax them down from a tree. He was successful and we were very lucky. So anyone who thinks that they are clipping their birds as a safety measure better think twice about that being the reason

 

[Sophie's Mama]

Unfortunately many people are under the misconception that clipped birds can not fly away. This is so untrue. Ask my husband. Both of our birds that have a light clip got out the door on him and he spent over 2 hours trying to coax them down from a tree. He was successful and we were very lucky. So anyone who thinks that they are clipping their birds as a safety measure better think twice about that being the reason

We understand that clipping is No Guarantee! But two hours later you had your birds that you coaxed out of the tree. You were lucky! Can you have imagined what could have happened if they had had full flight feathers. There are no guarantees, we just do the very best we can and this is one subtle measure some choose to take.

 

[Riley's mom]

OK so this is some can of worms opened, and I am truly amazed at some of the opinions.....First I live in a very active house, revolving doors, lots of kids, not a mansion, just a basic 2400 sq. ft. home. I have 7 dogs (all rescues) and 4 parrots. Clipping is a welfare issue. Health and Safety are my prime concern. I have listened to all the arguments stating that it is better for a bird to be flighted, and I agree, but lets be real....these are birds, the truly best thing for these creatures would be for them to be back in wild flying free in flocks of their own kind. Man kind made them pets. Now it is up to us to do the best we can for them. I think some of the most taken for granted pets there are aside of fish. How many of us have heard, "It's just a bird...". So if we want to be honest The fact that we keep birds flighted or not is beside the issue. They should be wild! Three of my birds were rescue, taken from bad situations with bad living conditions, lack of proper nutrition, some left alone in a room with no care, some crowded in cages with inappropriate cage mates, no exercise at all and then discarded when they decided they didn't want to DEAL with IT any more. I have given them proper caging, they are free in my home at all times unless we are sleeping, they have fresh foods and vitamins, appropriate vet care, lots of toys for stimulation. The best care I can give, but leaving them flighted could risk injury, escape, or accidents, and I choose not to put them in that condition. That does not make me uneducated or lacking in the skills to take care of these birds. I have read the research, and cling to every bit Ican along the way. I have not chosen to coop them into a "Bird Room", they are a part of the family and we love them, but they live in MY home, I do not run a zoo, or a aviary putting them on display, WE live in a home. We love them and because we love them we see to it that they cannot accidentally be let lose into a world not conducive to the welfare of a tropical bird. I hope to have an aviary cage made in our back yard for them to be outdoors part of the day, but remember that even a flighted bird is a CAPTIVE, you can't change that and all we can do is the best we can for our birds in our homes.

I applaud those who manage flighted homes, but for every flighted home out there that manages their birds with the utmost safety there are three on sites like Craig's List, Parrot Society meet ups or even here on Avian Avenue, trying to find the owner of a bird found lost, or an owner, heartbroken because their precious feathered friend got loose and has never been found....I live in Austin, it's sprinkling outside, because of the precautions I have made I know my birds are not lost or afraid in the bad weather.... Can you flighted owners understand that?

Fantastic Post!!!!! I feel the same way. My household is not condusive to flighted birds either, but they do have stands and are in areas where they can see us even if they are in their cages. You have said everything I feel. Thank you.

 

[Bokkapooh]

We understand that clipping is No Guarantee! But two hours later you had your birds that you coaxed out of the tree. You were lucky! Can you have imagined what could have happened if they had had full flight feathers. There are no guarantees, we just do the very best we can and this is one subtle measure some choose to take.

In most cases, you are able to get your birds back if they are flight over if they are clipped...

Clipped birds can tree hop and hide very easily in the trees. It happened to us 2xs last year. Hawks easily kill a clipped bird. Clipped birds are not typically restored to their families or people again. They end up as prey to the predators as they are DEFENSELESS. Flighted birds have a chance to find food, water, and go find safety and find humans.

Your 2400sqft home is bigger than our house, and we have 2 large dogs, and 2 asperger kids, 3 other regular kids and 5+ cats, snakes, etc, and our birds are flighted. You'd be surprised by how easily a LARGE bird can fly in small homes. You do NOT have to have a manshion to have flighted birds.

I applaud those who manage flighted homes, but for every flighted home out there that manages their birds with the utmost safety there are three on sites like Craig's List, Parrot Society meet ups or even here on Avian Avenue, trying to find the owner of a bird found lost, or an owner, heartbroken because their precious feathered friend got loose and has never been found....I live in Austin, it's sprinkling outside, because of the precautions I have made I know my birds are not lost or afraid in the bad weather.... Can you flighted owners understand that?

I really dont understand Your point has already been made and argued already by many people. A clipped bird can still get loose, and still get lost, and still fly away. I find more clipped birds on the loose than flighted birds. And I find that flighted birds are the ones that are typically restored to their rightful owners over clipped birds.

But I do understand that everyone has their owner choice to make whether they want flighted birds or not. I use to be PRO clip, but then I tried it out with my budgies, and learned how easy it is to house flighted birds like it is to house clipped birds once safety precautions are taken. I have a HUGE family, family of humans and family of furred, scaley and feathers. And accidents will happen whether they are flighted or not. I just find that being flighted they are more safe.

 

[Bokkapooh]

But I do understand that everyone has their owner choice to make whether they want flighted birds or not. I use to be PRO clip, but then I tried it out with my budgies, and learned how easy it is to house flighted birds like it is to house clipped birds once safety precautions are taken. I have a HUGE family, family of humans and family of furred, scaley and feathers. And accidents will happen whether they are flighted or not. I just find that being flighted they are more safe.

I just have to add on to this. Once by budgies started to fly, I kept all my small birds flighted. And then when I got my first larger parrots, after much thought, I tried it out with keeping my larger parrots flighted, and its been great.

You train them where they can and cannot fly. You train family and other family members(furred creatures) about the birds and do's and dont's. Its really quite easy and not as hard as many people think it is.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

In most cases, you are able to get your birds back if they are flight over if they are clipped...

Clipped birds can tree hop and hide very easily in the trees. It happened to us 2xs last year. Hawks easily kill a clipped bird. Clipped birds are not typically restored to their families or people again. They end up as prey to the predators as they are DEFENSELESS. Flighted birds have a chance to find food, water, and go find safety and find humans.

Your 2400sqft home is bigger than our house, and we have 2 large dogs, and 2 asperger kids, 3 other regular kids and 5+ cats, snakes, etc, and our birds are flighted. You'd be surprised by how easily a LARGE bird can fly in small homes. You do NOT have to have a manshion to have flighted birds.



In the same breath, you also do not have to take the chance of having one lost.

Clipped birds can tree hop and hide very easily in the trees. It happened to us 2xs last year.

With all due respect, It didn't happen to me...I have owned 2 of my birds for about 6 years now. An African Gray and a Dusky Pionus, Both live in our crazy home with revolving doors...And not once have we had either, ESCAPE to the tree tops to be killed by hawks. That is the point I was trying to make. I choose to clip them because as of now it has been a very good safety precaution. As I have said we all do the best we know how to for a species that would be better off in the wild! I have a great envy for those who feel comfortable giving that freedom to their birds, but I don't feel it is best for mine.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I have a great envy for those who feel comfortable giving that freedom to their birds, but I don't feel it is best for mine.

You can always try it out and see how it works for you and your family. And possibly ask and see how other families with flighted birds, keep their birds safe, and ask how busy their families are, their house size, family size, etc, to settle your fears. Just a thought

In the same breath, you also do not have to take the chance of having one lost.

Also this can be said about clipped birds being able to "fly" or tree hop away, they can fly through a open door, or scurry between feet and once outside they have the Earth's breeze and winds, to be able to take them up into a tree or over trees, lost in the trees, etc. Keeping birds in general is hazardous whether flighted or clipped.

 

[Birdlover]

It seems to me that the majority of birds I have read about being lost, were ones that are typically kept clipped but have grown the clip out. It makes one wonder if its not many times a false sense of security "oh I can sneak out the door and get the mail (or whatever), dont have to put the bird away, he cant get out" sort of a scenario. I think people who know their birds can fly typically dont take those chances. Now Im not saying those who clip do take chances, but how easy is it for any of us to feel "oh he'll be fine while I do this quick errand." I have had unclipped birds for at least 10 years now, and (knock on wood) never lost one. But I also dont have a situation where the door would be opened without my knowing it. If there are going to be people coming in and out, the birds are in their cages. Fortunately thats not real common here.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

You can always try it out and see how it works for you and your family. And possibly ask and see how other families with flighted birds, keep their birds safe, and ask how busy their families are, their house size, family size, etc, to settle your fears. Just a thought

The thought is taken with the best in mind, but I see too many bird owners looking for their birds, and If at all possible I will see to it that mine are safe...I understand how dedicated to this theory many are, but lets look at it from a different outlook...I have pit bulls, 5 of them. Gentle loving pups, they love to run and play unleashed. They enjoy the lake, the park, walks around the block. They stay close and are well behaved two of which are CGC Certified. But it would not be safe for them if I walked them off leash due to the misunderstanding most have for the breed. They would get more exercise if they could be loose, they could socialize with the other dogs in the neighborhood, but for their own safety they must be fenced when at home and outside. They must be walked on a leash, so not to scare uneducated misinformed passerby's. Do they prefer to be leashed, NO, but I must do what I think is best to ensure their safety. Can accidents happen? Absolutely! but with safety precautions in place it is much less likely and I choose to do the best I can for them.
That is what I am doing for my feathered family, the best I can to keep them safe and happy. Why would I try something, posted over and over again, that has proven to not work? You yourself said you had two such incidents last year...that is two to many for me...

 

[Bokkapooh]

Why would I try something, posted over and over again, that has proven to not work? You yourself said you had two such incidents last year...that is two to many for me...

Well those incident were with clipped birds, so if you dont want that to happen, to better get them birdies flighted, lol.



But I am not sure what you mean by "it has proven to not work"?

Flighted birds do not work? I am not sure what you mean? And what you mean by they are proven to not work? Work out in your home? Or in other homes? Or in the majority of flighted homes? I am not sure what you mean, please clearify.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

Well those incident were with clipped birds,
How did your birds being clipped effect the fact that they got loose? Why were they out side? Did you take them out because they were clipped? I do not take my birds outside! If they have outside time it is caged. Do you not understand that if your birds were flighted, they might have been gone forever, not just up a tree! ? I choose to see to it that there is less chance of them getting out to start with!
so if you dont want that to happen, to better get them birdies flighted, lol. So why do you feel that way, Why suld flightinh them make them safer than they are now?


But I am not sure what you mean by "it has proven to not work"? I search craigs list, the rescue sights, forum pages and I have not seen where flighting birds would make it safer for them? My birds are not left unsupervised..they are not allowed free flight outside..I do not put them into a position that it is likely that they will escape...With that said accidents happen, but unlikely!

Flighted birds do not work? I watch the postings of birds that are lost. Most are flighted birds, they accidentally got out and given the fact that they have all their feathers they got lift and off they went. I am not sure what you mean? And what you mean by they are proven to not work? Work out in your home? Or in other homes? Or in the majority of flighted homes? I am not sure what you mean, please clearify.Read your own posts, accidents happen, you stated that you had 2 birds escape last year. Yes they were clipped, but the difference I see is that they didn't get too far away for you to coax them back, I watch so many people who love their birds post that they have missing birds. I have chosen to take the safer approach. And by safer, I mean I choose to do everything I can to see that my babies DO NOT end up lost.