Discussion on Photoperiodism

[GlassOnion]

I'd love some input on this matter, on the overall health and well being of our parrots, but also in the means to keep hormones under control. With no success on having dark, 14hr nights in the attempt to curb reproductive behaviours in my cockatiels, I'm wondering about the efficacy of following a *natural* sunrise and sunset schedule with my birds, supplemented with 2hrs of full spectrum lighting mid-day (as per suggestion: Parrot Island--Articles ). This would lean towards a 12hr light on/off schedule. Does anyone here have their birds follow the sun's natural clock? How has it affected your birds? Are they calmer and quieter as a result, or did it make them rowdy and temperamental as a result of the spring/summer weather? My biggest concern would be that my guys tend to get LOUD for an hour or two in the morning if allowed to wake up to sunrise, whereas having a sleep cage eliminates this.

Thanks so much in advance.

 

[Stormcloud]

I'm only a hack on such a subject, but I think that the length of the photoperiod is only one of a number of factors that affect hormonal behaviour in our birds. Other factors such as humidity and diet may play just as important roles. You also need to understand that a shorter photoperiod may result in triggering hormonal behaviour. Many parrots that reside in the tropics often breed just after the end of the "Wet Season" (there is no Spring or Autumn in the tropics). The "Dry Season" in the tropics is in winter and therefore has a shorter photoperiod than the "Wet Season". My Hooded Parrots are examples of this and much of the Cockatiels' home range is North of the Tropic of Capricorn so this may also hold true for many of them. I bring up the areas of diet and humidity as other variable factors you may wish to consider, alter and experiment with.

IMO FSL is a waste of time Full spectrum lighting..what set up do you have? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum. Other members such as @LaSelva @JLcribber may be able to shine a lot more light on your query than I can. Other members such as @CheekyBeaks and @melissasparrots who breed may also be able to assist on the subject as well, especially in the areas natural versus artificial lighting, inside versus outside, and their affects upon hormonal behaviour. In the end you may just have to accept that you have two birds who are going to "do the wild thing" no matter what.

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

THIS IS THE PLAIN TRUTH ABOUT HEN BIRDS: THEY ARE PROGRAMED BY EVOLUTION, OR CREATED BY GOD, IF YOU PREFER, TO PRODUCE EGGS. THAT IS THE REASON THEY EXIST. THE PURPOSE OF ALL LIFE IS TO PRODUCE MORE LIFE AND UNLESS A SURGICAL or CHEMICAL INTERVENTION IS USED, A LIVING THING IS DRIVEN TO REPRODUCE AND WILL TRY TIME AND AGAIN TO SO THIS.

Now. Understanding that, we have the problem of reducing egg numbers in companion parrots. Since I feel it is inhumane to not allow companion parrots to have a mate, if they want one, all my birds are given the opportunity to have a mate, have sex, and produce eggs according to their natural cycle. The only thing I do not usually allow my birds to do is hatch out and raise babies. It does not appear to harm the birds to lay eggs but have no young appear to be raised. We all know most young does not live to breed, so apparently parent birds are not as upset about not having babies to feed and fledge than they are in not being permitted to court, mate and lay eggs. It also seems, when the hen does not have a baby to feed, she will feed her mate instead. I have seen cock birds resort to feeding their mates as well when no babies are available to feed. I just let my birds keep their (sterilized) eggs and brood them until they get tired of being parent birds and then I discard the eggs. Breeding season over for another year.

It is really convenient that birds are photoperiodic because it gives us something to manipulate to try and control breeding. It helps to rearrange the cages and make them "strange" to the birds who want to breed. It helps to decrease fresh foods and limit cooked amd soft foods during breeding season. I do not and will not limit seeds, pellets and other foods for the birds during breeding season as this would be cruel and could lead to low calcium levels and less than prime condition hens. So not naturally poor yield growing seasons in my birdroom. But manipulating the photoperiodic hormone levels is not only fair game, it is easy and effective. One is never going to eliminate ALL egg production, but numbers can be decreased.

Myself, I allow my birds access to normal sunlight as much as possible; it is the sunlight that drives the hormonal levels which create the breeding season. The only other option would be to keep the birds in a blackout room with totally artificial light levels calibrated to the time of year. Nope. Not worth the headache (I did think of it). So, I do have artificial sunlight lamps in the birdroom; four lights, that are at all times set on twelve hour timers, centered on the high noon time of winter equinox. Yes, the shortest day of the year is my base day. I also change my lights, as recommended by the manufacturer, once a year on winter equinox: which occurs either on December 20 or 21, depending on where we are in relation to the sun's orbit in our galaxy. So my birds have the variation of natural sunlight for the hormonal bloom, but also have the artificial twelve hour light/twelve hour dark of the sunlamps. I have found this to be effective in limiting the numbers of eggs over the past ten years. The numbers fluctuate between one-half to one-third of normal clutch numbers I experienced before I put up the lights.

In a break with most other people, I do provide nest boxes, a few, as well as 'accidental' cardboard box opportunities for egg laying. I check all the boxes once a day for new eggsduring laying season and when I find them, I sterile them by 24 hours of refrigeration and then give them back. I want the hen to 'complete' her clutch, brood it with her mate and then abandon the eggs when nothing hatches. I found when I did not allow some nest boxes and accidental boxes to be available, I had to watch where the hens were hiding their fertile eggs. Often these hidden eggs were under furniture, heavy furniture, back in crevices and in generally difficult areas from which to remove eggs once found. Believe me, it is much easier to just check the nest boxes and other boxes as well as the grates in the cages to collect the eggs for sterilization.

So. My hens get to lay eggs, by birds get to be real birds and I don't have any baby birds to rehome or worry about. It is a win/win situation for me.

Questions?

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

Yes, other factors do apply like rain, humidity, food availability or their naturally occupied range, but the basic time of breeding is very dependent on light source. In Australia, cockatiels breed January to June. They start courting in November/December and air off and produce eggs for January/February and hatch February to May. In Australia this is when the grass seed ripens and is bountiful in their habitat and this is the Southern Hemisphere spring, summer, fall when new fruits and greens are available. Despite being outside their normal habitat for hundreds of years, they still want to breed during the Australian spring and summer!

Remember. They cannot be prevented from their hormonal swings; there are no safe, effective ways of controlling their hormonal production and no surgery to remove their reproductive organs. We just have to work with what we have.

 

[Mizzely]

My birds are on an artificial 12 hour photoperiod year round . 10am to 10pm. This is for completely selfish reasons - I like to sleep in and I like having more time in the evenings with them. I have not had any issues with crazy screaming or hormones. I use light blocking curtains and have their lights on a timer so at 10am the lights click on regardless of where I am. They welcome the day by squawking for between 5 minutes to a half hour, then go about their day. I personally feel such a structure has been helpful in making Jingo a bit more laid back. This spring has been much easier for me than last spring was!

 

[GlassOnion]

Thanks guys. Lois- so exactly what kind of photoperiod is best to reduce hormones? Is it 12 hours of BRIGHT FS light followed by pitch black darkness or does the light get dimmer with the day and transitions into darkness at the 12hr mark?

 

[GlassOnion]

Is it dry season that I want to be mimicking, or a perpetual wet season as they breed AFTER it ends?

I'd love to let them go through the cycle once a year and get it out if their systems, but past experience has proven that they head right back into nesting after the first unviable clutch, resulting in chronic egg laying and massive calcium loss.

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

I never go with pitch darkness. There is rarely pitch darkness in the natural world; there is only darker or lighter nights, depending on the moon cycle. As I said, I allow natural light at all times and the twelve hour lights on/lights off of the artificial daylight. You have to decide what will be your base day, either winter SOLSTICE (shortest day of the year), or the fall or spring equinox. The equinoxes are the "sum zero" of the solar cycle (equinox meaning equal day/equal night) with roughly 12 hours of natural light on both of these days. You can't use the the summer solstice, ever; too much light. Sorry I did not catch my mistake above. I will try and correct. I use the winter solstice, the shortest day because it is handy for me to change the lights on that day, providing fresh lights for the coming breeding season. But my vet pointed out the equinoxes would work as well; perhaps even better. There are some rare earth elements used in making the 'natural' sun artificial lights and so they must be changed each and every year to remain effective as the REEs are exhausted by use.

My cockatiels have ONE breeding season and do not breed again until the next December. I am not sure what to tell you if yours are constantly cycling. Or do you have several different species you are working with? My lovebirds are constant cyclers, taking just a few weeks, about a month, off between the three cycles they go through. I was told by my vet many lovebird species breed year round, especially those who live very close to the Equator. My canaries do normal spring/summer. Budgies are about the same as the tiels. Sunny does not cycle; never laid an eggs, totally uninterested in cock birds of any species. Emmie CAG gets hormonal in the winter also. Again, Equator birds.

I CAN'T CHANGE THE ORIGINAL POST. NOTE MY CALIBRATION DAY FOR THE YEAR IS WINTER SOLSTICE, THE SHORTEST DAY OF THE YEAR.

 

[GlassOnion]

Thanks so much, I will look into winter solstice and spring/fall equinoxes. Truly very helpful and exactly what I was looking for. I read that you centre your lights around high noon, so how many hours of bright FS light are active each day? 12? I'm sorry if I'm making you repeat, I just don't know if you mean to utilize bright artificial sunlight 12 hrs each day. The article in my original post suggested no more than several hours of FS lighting a day.

And yes, cockatiels. They would take a few week break and get right back into it... It just never ended until vet intervention/lupron.

 

[CheekyBeaks]

I agree with stormcloud natural daylight hours will effect their hormones cooler months will have shorter days and warmer months will have longer days, following these patterns will trigger hormones and depending on species longer days will trigger some species shorter days will trigger others.
Most of my birds including all of my breeding birds live in aviaries outdoors, their lives are totally influenced by natural light and weather patterns, to date I have never had a pair breed out of season except for my rainbow lories as they will breed all year round (including the wild ones). However I do find that weather patterns will effect when they will nest equally as much, a few years back we had a drier season and many of my pairs nested late winter, jump forward a couple of seasons having had two very wet seasons with flooding and nearby cyclones and they nested late. So far this year it is drier and unseasonably warm my pairs seem like they are preparing to nest earlier again but only time will tell.
For my house birds they get covered up at sundown (depending on the time of year anywhere from 5:30pm-7pm) and are uncovered at around 7am so far I haven't had hormonal issues with any of them.

Diet is another big factor, if you are having a lot of hormonal issues particularly out of breeding season in your area you need to reassess your diet, cut out or limit high energy foods like banana, pasta, seeds, bird breads, rice, corn etc... And switch to a lower energy diet.


I will also have to agree with stormcloud about the full spectrum lighting, it gives me an uneasy feeling and i really don't like the thought of using it, I much prefer natural sunlight as opposed to an artificial light, goodness knows what potential harm it could be doing.

 

[GlassOnion]

Very interesting about the potential side effects of FS lighting. I was not aware that they may be detrimental to our birds.

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

After the stupid mistake I made in my post, it is OK. TWELVE hours of the FS artificial lights and TWELVE hours with the FS artificial lights off at natural night time. I allow the normal sunlight to create the hormonal swing. The artificial lights are there for the mediation of hormonal levels, decreasing the hormonal levels naturally with extra light. My vet and I worked on this idea for five years or so.

Yes, there are questions about how healthy FS artificials are for our birds. I would rather risk the side effects of artificial light than have artificial hormones injected into my bird. My choice, worked out with the help of my avian vet. The issue of cooler or hotter temps is moot. Most of us try and keep our homes at a specific temperature area, irregardless of time of year.

 

[GlassOnion]

Fantastic. Did your birds ever show distress from so many hours of BRIGHTNESS before adjusting to it? I tend to taper off the lights in the early evening so that it's dimmer and easier on their eyes. I wonder how my guys will do with the extra lighting. I think it's awesome that this is a plan you developed with your vet for five years.

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

No. I didn't start it at the winter solstice when I started it. I got my first set of lights and timers in the summer. It was when I realized that I needed to change the lights yearly that I decided to use the solstice as my set point. I change them and turn them on AT NOON on the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year.

I don't think they will notice the 'extra' light if you begin it in the summer months. The summer solstice, longest day of the year, is coming up on June 21st. This is when the sun is the brightest and the longest in our sky here in the Northern Hemisphere. The Summer Solstice in the Southern Hemisphere is during December. Remember, these days are six months apart. The actual time the solstice occurs varies due to the fact our orbit around the sun is not an even number of days; why we need leap year. You could still taper your light in the evenings if you wish, but I gave that up when I initiated the FS artificial lights. My vet thought it was just one more variable that would interfere with the light levels and the adjustments we were trying to make.

Dr Stern also pointed out that that was the reason why we weren't going to play with the depth of the darkness of the night; because birds sometimes show a rebound sensitivity to lower light levels/darkness than they do with high light levels. Like how they fool chickens into laying constantly for, I think, 26 or 28 days. All light, not dark except, I think, two or three hours. And some places don't do that much dark. Chicken layers are never exposed to natural light; for them it is always high noon on summer solstice.

Summer Solstice 2014 - Date for the Northern Hemisphere

 

[CheekyBeaks]

Just a little story of a friend of mine who has a cockatoo who in the past had issues producing eggs too large for her to lay, she had to use implants yearly to stop her for laying. My friend hated her having to use these as their obviously are side effects like any medication and worked with her vet to change her birds diet to control her hormones, I think it has been about three years now that she has successfully managed her hormones with diet and some minor environmental changes (no places she can get to that can be considered nesting areas) alone and has not needed to have the implants again. As far as I know this bird lives by natural daylight hours (absolutely no FS lighting) and I don't think she has had the need to control how many hours of light she is exposed to.
So while I do feel daylight plays an important part in hormones, there is a lot more to it you need to look at ALL aspects and this includes light, weather (temps, humidity, rainfall etc...) environment and I think most importantly diet.

As it seems yours are breeding out of season I feel you need to assess far more than just your lighting, it is just the tip of the iceberg. Look at environmental factors, remove anything from their environment that they may view as a nesting place, boxes, snuggle tents etc... And have a good look at their diet, what are they being fed as their regular diet?

 

[JLcribber]

I'd love some input on this matter, on the overall health and well being of our parrots, but also in the means to keep hormones under control. With no success on having dark, 14hr nights in the attempt to curb reproductive behaviours in my cockatiels,

See that's where you went wrong. As Lois posted, you can not stop this behaviour because it "is" hormone driven and the most powerful force in their lives. All you can do is "try" to minimize the effects so they don't last any longer than they need to.

THIS IS THE PLAIN TRUTH ABOUT HEN BIRDS: THEY ARE PROGRAMED BY EVOLUTION, OR CREATED BY GOD, IF YOU PREFER, TO PRODUCE EGGS. THAT IS THE REASON THEY EXIST. THE PURPOSE OF ALL LIFE IS TO PRODUCE MORE LIFE AND UNLESS A SURGICAL or CHEMICAL INTERVENTION IS USED, A LIVING THING IS DRIVEN TO REPRODUCE AND WILL TRY TIME AND AGAIN TO SO THIS.

 

[GlassOnion]

@CheekyBeaks I do not allow them to any nesty places, and are separated during the day. They usually get a variety of veggies- mostly dark leafy greens, roudybush pellets, freshly sprouted grains/legumes, mash, some seed. As of recent, I've cut out sprouts and mash so they eat pellets and veggies with a small amount of seed. Also keep in mind that where I live (Pacific Northwest) it rains SO much, most of the year. Nowadays it's finally getting sunny and dry with warm heat, so I suspect the weather is a factor too.

 

[Mizzely]

I do agree that diet is an important factor. What perfect of their diet is pellets? Maybe lower the ratio some? I've heard that hormones can be influenced by the body experiencing plentiful nutrients so if they are getting too much of the basic needs that might be a factor. Just speculating

 

[Stormcloud]

Is it dry season that I want to be mimicking, or a perpetual wet season as they breed AFTER it ends?

I'd love to let them go through the cycle once a year and get it out if their systems, but past experience has proven that they head right back into nesting after the first unviable clutch, resulting in chronic egg laying and massive calcium loss.

My main point is that there are other factors other than just the photoperiod that affect when birds will breed. I don't have these issues, but just wanted to point out a couple of other variable factors that affect breeding cycles that you could potentially experiment with, because you can manipulate them inside your home. If you venture down the humidity path then I would raise it, but in some aspects you'd be treading new ground as I've never seen someone approach avian contraception from this angle. Having said that, I can't see why it wouldn't be any less plausible than adjusting the photoperiod or dietary components. Even using a combination of all the elements described may not produce the results you desire in which case you may need to revisit the implant scenario. Remember Anita, these are suggestions only and as Cheekybeaks has pointed out, while they are only the tip of the iceberg, it does give you a starting point. I'm sorry that I cannot be of much more help. I'm sure you'll find David LaSelva will provide you with some helpful suggestions once he becomes aware of this thread.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Since moving out into our house. I have been trying my hardest to "control" our parrots reproductive behavior, most especially since Koo passed away due to a reproductive disease.

We have the 'darkness' curtain over their large window and cardboard behind That along with the blinds down and closed by 7pm on most night. Its up at 7am most mornings. Sometimes 6:30. Sometimes 8am.

Cant say its working or not. But hormones are settling down since we moved in February. But its been about 3.5months since moving, so hormones may just be settling now.

But moving from our artificially lit apartment to a huge bird room that has tons of natural light really made my guys super hormonal unlike any of the years we lived at the apartment.