~Update Post 145~ on our two German Shepherd Pups

[Danita]

This is very important. The most important thing is that they are allowed to be heard when they are afraid, never pushed or forced. The same as with birds. I'm sorry that they are so fearful. I live with several very fearful dogs and specialize in fearful dogs and it can be very challenging. In fact, I am teaching a new Marshmallow class tonight for fearful and shy dogs. Helping these dogs through their issues is very rewarding.

When you say they need to be heard when they are afraid, do you mean allowed to bark? Please elaborate

 

[Danita]

She was sent away to school for six weeks and my sister said that was what ruined her. But I don't know anything about the training itself.

Ginger

I asked the trainer about that and she did not advise sending them to boot camp, they can come home worse. Same with sending them with a dog walker, they can return worse or learn other bad behaviors. It has to be just me, thank goodness I have understanding people at work.

 

[Danita]

I think I will start the crate training at home instead of at work.

I do have the biggest one, its plastic for airlines.

 

[birdlvr466]

We did what Vicki said, leaving the door open at first. Also just short little training times and gradually increased the time. We would put his Kong in there with treats. After awhile he would go in the crate and wait for his treat. We had a huge metal crate so it was very airy and open. We never crate trained with any of our other dogs but he was too mischevious and really needed that until he was about a year old.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

Crate training is not teaching them to be in a cage. Crate training is teaching them the crate is their home, where they can go to get away, its a good place to be, it is safe. Feed each dog in their own crate. Give each a treat in THEIR crate. Watch for times of stress...they back up, they sniff around. Do something fun to take the stress away. You are the boss and can handle things. That is sometimes hard for them to learn. Watch for them "staring down" another person or dog. This is the start of aggression and your trainer will teach you how to break it off.

My male rough collie was fearful and showed signs of aggression. Since I did obedience and flyball I learned to work with the behaviors. It is fun and he had fun. My PON came to me at 15 months. I worked with her a LOT. For a year we would take a walk in our apt complex. When people were seen I immediately held the leash up (not jerking or pulling) and this solicited a response in her to sit. We just stayed there and watched them. To her, it became ok for other people to be around. No aggression. When you do the sport of flyball, aggressive behavior to people or dogs can have the dog banned for a life time. It is felt the owner did not have control of their dog and placed others in danger. It is not the other person that needs to know training. The owner is. Food aggression...one sees that with rescued dogs. Can you imagine the high energy of a border collie who is aggressive and guards all food? WOW. Me, I give that dog a little space and they get not one or two but 3 bowls. He stops guarding because he has his food harem.

Current dogs...Chinese Crested powder puff who loves everyone. Australian Cattle Dog...loves me. Both are males. Cattle dog was shy at first and did back away from people. I just took him places with me and walked around with him tied to me and I controlled the leash. Where he was comfortable I stopped and talked to people. He does NOT want his head petter. I tell everyone this. He is fine by them just don't pet his head...I leave that for obedience training and a command if I want to allow head petting when he is uncomfortable.

I understand not taking two dogs right now but once they are older and training is working you can walk them with a coupler. At least with my dogs this had them self correcting each other and took the strain off me. This is only when we went on a walk and I did not have to pay real close attention like I would in close quarters.

You will learn your dogs. You will become very aware of different situations and keep your dog under control. A crate is their safe zone and at my house their crate is not in the main area and they can go and get away if they want. The people are not allowed to mess with them in a crate. When we go to dog shows the dogs love their crates...heck I have seen kids climb in the crate with their dog and both sleeping. Crates are not bad...they are home.

Sorry to ramble on and their are some good people here to guide you in the right directions. Just don't be surprised if your birds start learning to give the dogs commands.

 

[Danita]

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and ideas
I soak it all in!

Izzy will not let me out of her sight, she is always at my feet. I can count on my one hand the number of times she has chosen to go somewhere that she can't see me from. I am wondering where the crate would fit into that equation?

 

[Ankou]

Okay, how to begin crate training? Tips?

The main thing is you don't want to rush it, which really most bird-people will be used to not doing anyway.
Try to keep every experience as positive as possible, even if it means the first experiences are her darting in to grab a favorite treat or toy. Once she is more comfortable with the crate, not fearful of going into it if she is now, you can try closing it for very short periods of time with praise and a favorite treat. When I started out I used little flavored chews that took a couple minutes to finish, to keep their minds of being off the closed door. Gradually lengthen the amount of crate time (or even give a larger chewy with the length of time.) It seems like it's fairly natural for them to want to sleep or seek security in an enclosed area and many dogs just get the idea on their own after enough time in the crate and a bed in there.
Try to associate a phrase with the crate, for my guys it was always "go to your crate," which they would, happily, and wait for their treat before settling down.

I'm sure more experienced people can give better advice (I only use crates for travel/emergencies these days, my guys prefer to stretch out out night and it was really hard to find crates big enough, let alone space for the crates in my house!)


One last idea for people greeting her at work is to also have a little bowl nearby with treats and a sticky note that strongly implies they should give them to her before or instead of petting him. Visitors aren't as scary when they provide food, especially if they give her a treat and then don't pressure her, just leave.

Edit:

Izzy will not let me out of her sight, she is always at my feet. I can count on my one hand the number of times she has chosen to go somewhere that she can't see me from. I am wondering where the crate would fit into that equation?

I would start crate training with the crate somewhere they she can easily see you from. Once she is comfortable with it, you can try leaving the room while she is in it for short periods of time.
With Bear, this meant the crate was in the living room and him only in the crate while I there too. At night I would carry the unwieldy thing to the bedroom where he slept. Once he seemed to prefer resting in the crate, I just left it in the bedroom and he would choose to leave me to go to his crate on his own.

Then he outgrew the crate, and because he was longer bodied and longer legged than any house-type crate I could find locally, only has his travel crate. (which he doesn't like to sleep in.)

 

[Danita]

One last idea for people greeting him at work is to also have a little bowl nearby with treats and a sticky note that strongly implies they should give them to him before or instead of petting him. Visitors aren't as scary when they provide food, especially if they give him a treat and then don't pressure him, just leave.

Izzy is way past that, she would bark and jump at any visitors, forget putting your hand out, thats the worst! That is a total threat to her.

THanks for the crate tips!

 

[kcbee]

I'm sorry you're going through this But it sounds like you are on the right track and facing the problem instead of ignoring it. It's great you're addressing this while they are young.

We never did "real" crate training, but CoCo has her crate and we leave the door open so she can go in and out as she pleases. It is her safe place, it isn't a cage. If she's upset, scared, whatever, she will go into her crate. Dogs are den animals, so they like small enclosed spaces.

You're going to get through this Danita! You are right on track.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Most send away dog training camps are punishment based and do more damage than good.

I asked the trainer about that and she did not advise sending them to boot camp, they can come home worse. Same with sending them with a dog walker, they can return worse or learn other bad behaviors. It has to be just me, thank goodness I have understanding people at work.

 

[Theresa]

I think I will start the crate training at home instead of at work.

I do have the biggest one, its plastic for airlines.

This is the one I had for Kitana that she hated Petmate 21700 Vari-Kennel - Giant
This is what I got her after and she loved it 1600DD Series Double Door Life Stages, Midwest 1600DD Series Life Stages
I'm not sure what size it was, but here is my daughter and Hubby in it to show how big it was. Hubby is over 6 foot tall

 

[macawpower58]

I've been into training GSDs for some time. You may not like my answers or opinions, but I'll give them regardless.

Fearfull and shy behavior is 99% of the time genetics. It's how they're wired. American bred GSDs are much worse in this respect than German bred GSDs.

There's many ways to handle it. I'm no expert, but I know 'coddling' it is the worse thing to do. Petting and soothing a fearful dog just cements in their mind they were right to be nervous.

Fearful aggression is another behavior I'm familiar with, and I hate it. It's unpredictable, and there is no cure. You learn to handle it. Very strong obedience training is IMO the best way of doing this. Knowing your dog and knowing it's limits is a must. I have one. She can never be off leash, and she can not be put into situations that stress her out to much. Genetics will always win. You must prevent any accidents, and they will happen. They are a huge responsibility and liability.

Exercise (strenous) is a must. Advanced training is highly recommended. Obedience needs to be faultless.

Most people can not (and should not) have dogs like these. My girl will attack unannounced. Children are in danger from these types of dogs.

I really hope your dogs are not falling into this catagory. If they do....know you're work is cut out for you. Many are given away (which is so wrong). Many are euthanized which IMO is the best thing todo, rather than giving them into unsuspecting hands.

GSDs are not supposed to be like this. It is bad breeding.

I'm sorry to sound so strong, but after having one, and seeing many, I really don't think a dog that is so nervous, afraid and aggressive, can ever really be a happy companion to any but the rare person.

They make terrible companions as you can't take them out on outings safely. They're no protection when they need to be crated for visitors, or muzzled for safety sake.

I really hope you don't have this worst case scenario. If you do think long and hard about the next 15 years you'll have to live with these dogs.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Actually, you can't reinforce fear. Fear is an emotional state, not a behavior. Emotions do not work operantly like learned behaviors do, so you can't reinforce it. If you were being robbed at gun point and I came up and started to hand you $100 bills you would not be more fearful the next time. The same is true for dogs. There is nothing worth being fearful. Being afraid is damaging and expensive to our bodies, there is nothing that we can be reinforced with to make it operant. Fear is an emotion that is driven by classical or pavlovian conditioning. This means that it is about associations, not consequences generally. So, it is okay to comfort a fearful dog (or other animal). It will not make them more fearful the next time. However, some people's version of "comforting" is not good for dogs. I have seen people try to say, "it's okay, it's okay" when they are clearly afraid and do not believe it's okay. I am a professional dog trainer and behavior consultant and I specialize in working with fearful dogs and even still it is very difficult for me to remain calm when I am working my own fearful dogs. I have done a lot of desensitization and counter conditioning so that they are comfortable and can function, but it is still upsetting to see them react that is causes me to be off balance emotionally at times.

I'm no expert, but I know 'coddling' it is the worse thing to do. Petting and soothing a fearful dog just cements in their mind they were right to be nervous.

.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

I've been into training GSDs for some time. You may not like my answers or opinions, but I'll give them regardless.

Fearfull and shy behavior is 99% of the time genetics. It's how they're wired. American bred GSDs are much worse in this respect than German bred GSDs.

There's many ways to handle it. I'm no expert, but I know 'coddling' it is the worse thing to do. Petting and soothing a fearful dog just cements in their mind they were right to be nervous.

Fearful aggression is another behavior I'm familiar with, and I hate it. It's unpredictable, and there is no cure. You learn to handle it. Very strong obedience training is IMO the best way of doing this. Knowing your dog and knowing it's limits is a must. I have one. She can never be off leash, and she can not be put into situations that stress her out to much. Genetics will always win. You must prevent any accidents, and they will happen. They are a huge responsibility and liability.

Exercise (strenous) is a must. Advanced training is highly recommended. Obedience needs to be faultless.

Most people can not (and should not) have dogs like these. My girl will attack unannounced. Children are in danger from these types of dogs.

I really hope your dogs are not falling into this catagory. If they do....know you're work is cut out for you. Many are given away (which is so wrong). Many are euthanized which IMO is the best thing todo, rather than giving them into unsuspecting hands.

GSDs are not supposed to be like this. It is bad breeding.

I'm sorry to sound so strong, but after having one, and seeing many, I really don't think a dog that is so nervous, afraid and aggressive, can ever really be a happy companion to any but the rare person.

They make terrible companions as you can't take them out on outings safely. They're no protection when they need to be crated for visitors, or muzzled for safety sake.

I really hope you don't have this worst case scenario. If you do think long and hard about the next 15 years you'll have to live with these dogs.

There is a small group of dogs that genetics have made them into terrible companions. I do not believe this of most animals. Each is an individual and at different places. It is how we handle those situations which makes the difference.

I share this because my training and what I do is based on science. The Advantages Of Training Antelope To Cooperate With Veterinary Procedures Do take a look and see that training in a positive manner REALLY does work. It is just us humans that need to learn the language then to communicate. WE are not always clear or CONSISTANT. Both qualities make a difference. If you want a good companion you need to put some time into getting them there. Some are easier. Some just require more time or different type of training.

Braveheart...your turn

 

[Danita]

We were advised to get bite insurance already and that Ellie should be wearing a muzzle
I can't focus on that, I need to just be positive and get her through this.

I am not going to give up on her/them, she is a beautiful dog and if she really doesn't work out at work, I will just work from home.

We will be in group classes in a couple of weeks, it will be a controlled environment where she can be socialized with people and dogs.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Honestly Dotty, group classes are probably not a good idea for her. She is going to be WAY over threshold in a group class. She will be so reactive and heightened that I can't imagine much productive learning would be happening. When the animal is reactive and emotional you can't control what they are learning. I would continue to work with them privately. Small amounts of exposure, at a safe distance, paired with something highly valuable like food. I have used desensitization and counter conditioning to change my dogs (and countless client dogs) conditioned emotional response to different things. It just takes time and has to be done without pressure or force.

We were advised to get bite insurance already and that Ellie should be wearing a muzzle
I can't focus on that, I need to just be positive and get her through this.

I am not going to give up on her/them, she is a beautiful dog and if she really doesn't work out at work, I will just work from home.

We will be in group classes in a couple of weeks, it will be a controlled environment where she can be socialized with people and dogs.

 

[Danita]

Honestly Dotty, group classes are probably not a good idea for her. She is going to be WAY over threshold in a group class. She will be so reactive and heightened that I can't imagine much productive learning would be happening. When the animal is reactive and emotional you can't control what they are learning. I would continue to work with them privately. Small amounts of exposure, at a safe distance, paired with something highly valuable like food. I have used desensitization and counter conditioning to change my dogs (and countless client dogs) conditioned emotional response to different things. It just takes time and has to be done without pressure or force.

The trainer believes she will be ready for her group class at the end of the month as long as she can focus on me.

I really don't know what to do, I always hear horror stories and it is hard to turn that off. I have gotten to a point where I am afraid to care for her sister and take her out

 

[Sadieladie1994]

You can do it. Muzzle...the is caution from the trainer so there are no legal issues. Society is very litigious and the owner is blamed for everything. It depends on the state you are in with what is the bite rule.

Training works.

One of my friends who owns our flyball team has a montra. Work them in the back yard, then the front yard then near public. Once they get it in the back yard. Work your obedience behaviors in the front yard. She would get a book and go by a local Kroger during the week with lawnchair and a book. She would just sit there for a couple of hours. The dog just sat with her and she could easily correct the dog. This is similar to what Braveheart says about desensitizing a dog. They need a slow progression. Different length of time for different dogs. The instructor should help you from becoming stuck. My friend has done animal training 50+ years and she trains the best Rotti's....

I mentioned my PON (sheepdog). She was from working stock. These dogs can live with the sheep and do NOT need a shepherd. Because of this behavior they are use to making decisions on their own without a person. I definitely had to train different than the collies. Most dominant dog I have ever had. Female who marked worse than males. Wanted to rip my nieces face off (actually was fear). Tried biting one of the dog people ( I was out of town and the person stuck her hand out to give command). OMG what did I get myself into. Simple obedience, presented different situations. She was a very cute dog and people always wanted to pet her. Boy, things didn't go well with the vet either and a muzzle would come out. Lots of positive training went on. She loved giving me hugs. She would get a treat the instant I put a treat at my shoulder. This served us well in the long run. I gradually introduced her to "good" people. I would hold a treat and ask her to give a hug. The value of food was tremendous for her and she did this gladly. I did not push her where she truly could not go but her manner changed, she would go to other people and vet visits greatly improved.

Now there is a blue heeler. Yep, don't like the vet. He will protect anything that is mine. Back to training. Taught him to stand for vet exam. Set the parameters to allow the vet to touch head and examine him. The techs even draw blood. We did not do this overnight! But I did something everyday with him. He now sits and lets me rest a piece of food on his nose. He will be 2 in June.

This is me. I teach a simple trick that the dogs love to do, do it right every time and are confident. They ALWAYS get a reward when asked to do the behavior. When they are getting stressed or out of sorts take them to their HAPPY place to let them get positive, accomplish something and get a reward. Short episodes are so much better just working on things. They can handle a bit more time in a formal class. If they offer the behavior and you have not asked for it they don't get a reward. The command and the reward come from you! My friend took her rescue Rottie in. I don't care if there is a muzzle or not. IF a vet wants to do something with her dog and the dog does not there is no strength the person has over the dog. Clicker training worked every time! You have your dog at work. She is quiet, she is behaved. How many times did your praise her and treat her and click the good behavior? This is formidable times so hi praise now.

Take a deep breath and go give you baby a treat or a hug...whatever makes her happy.

 

[Ribbit21]

My previous Dane had terrible fear aggression. She had underlying birth defects and brain damage that contributed towards the problem. Most of her problems never improved, but I did do a few things to help get her fear aggression to a level where she could be around people.

I used the name means look at me training a lot. It helped her focus on what I wanted from her and not be overly concerned about what other people were doing.

Crate training was also a big help. She eventually loved going in her crate. It was her comfort place. It made it a lot less stressful for her if she had to stay in there when people were over.

She was terribly fearful of people approaching her. She would bite in fear if they reached out to her. One thing that really helped with that was people tossing treats at her feet. I had them walk by her, at least 10-15 feet at first and toss some treats at her feet. They only tossed the treats when she wasn't acting aggressive (in the beginning I would distract her). Eventually when people would walk by she wouldn't growl and would be waiting for those treats. I gradually decreased the distance until they were maybe 5 feet away. I never had anyone reach out to her, but she was able to sit quiet while people walked by her.

Also we did a lot of people watching. I would take her to the park and sit on a bench or sit in the grass out of the way of people. I put a muzzle on her there, since it seemed to help keep people at a safe distance. She could see the people, but wasn't forced to interact with anyone. Sort of helped to desensitize her to people running around and making noise.

I wish you the best of luck!! You are starting fresh with her at a nice young age and that will help you a lot!!

 

[Jazzysmama]

This is the one I had for Kitana that she hated Petmate 21700 Vari-Kennel - Giant
This is what I got her after and she loved it 1600DD Series Double Door Life Stages, Midwest 1600DD Series Life Stages
I'm not sure what size it was, but here is my daughter and Hubby in it to show how big it was. Hubby is over 6 foot tall
View attachment 94915

Hey thats one way to train the dog, get in it and sleep with them!