Prong collars?

[BraveheartDogs]

I've done a lot of training with giant breeds, and trust me when I say these are much more humane for training purposes than a choke. However, I prefer to use a flat, buckle collar or harness first. If I have a 200 lb. puller or one with aggression issues, the blunt ended prong is used. There is no compression on the trachea like the choke collars. The only time I ever used choke collars were for my well trained (on flat buckles) conformation show dogs. Then, the choke was only for "show" never to be utilized as it was intended.

And, if I was ever going to use a prong (which I wouldn't but if I was) I would absolutely, never, ever, 100% ever use one with a fearful or aggressive individual. Almost all aggression is fear based, the animal is uncomfortable with something. If we start punishing for fear or aggression instead of actually teaching the animal to be comfortable with the stimulus, we can create more anxiety, fear and aggression. Yes, it might suppress the behavior (barking, lunging, whatever) but the animal has not learned to actually feel ok about the stimulus that he is reacting, in fact he now has more reason to feel anxious ("oh no, here comes another dog, I don't like other dogs this makes me uncomfortable but if I react I will get in trouble from my Mom, I don't know what to do, I am trapped" = anxiety spike). I treat aggression with desensitization and counter conditioning so animal learns to feel comfortable with the trigger,not just stop doing something. If that makes sense.

 

[Thugluvgrl187]

Thanks for sharing. I had never seen one of these.

 

[Ranyart]

Vicki - Thanks for the explanation - it's kinda what I always thought -just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. Not being a 'chatty' kind of trainer, when I speak my dogs pretty much pay attention. Now here's another question for you if you don't mind - What's is your opinion on Cesar Milan's "Illusion collar"? I'm currently working with a LARGE seven-month-old GR/chow mix, totally out of control outside the house (super sweet guy but dumb as a box of rocks) edit - He is not mine. I'm considering the Illusion collar although the Easy Walk/Sensation (same thing basically right?) are also options. Your opinion please? I have tried the martingale collar but it just didn't seem to make enough of a statement to him, know what I mean? Your opinion? thanks again.
Pennie

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vicki - Thanks for the explanation - it's kinda what I always thought -just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. Not being a 'chatty' kind of trainer, when I speak my dogs pretty much pay attention. Now here's another question for you if you don't mind - What's is your opinion on Cesar Milan's "Illusion collar"? I'm currently working with a LARGE seven-month-old GR/chow mix, totally out of control outside the house (super sweet guy but dumb as a box of rocks) edit - He is not mine. I'm considering the Illusion collar although the Easy Walk/Sensation (same thing basically right?) are also options. Your opinion please? I have tried the martingale collar but it just didn't seem to make enough of a statement to him, know what I mean? Your opinion? thanks again.
Pennie

I am not a Cesar Milan fan since he is a very punishment/compulsion based "trainer". So, honestly, I would be very reluctant to try anything he designed. I would try the easy walk or sensation and I would attach the leash to both the front of the harness AND to the collar. Also, I wouldn't want the harness to make a statement to the dog, my feedback and reinforcement will do that. I just want the owner to have a little bit more control and feel like they are safe.

 

[Ranyart]

Hi again Vicki and thanks for your input (although in Cesar Milan's defense (I'm a fan and some of his methods have worked marvelously for me) he is not a dog 'trainer' per se - he practices dog psychology which is a bit different (although the end result may be the same). I believe varied methods work with varied dogs - but you are correct in that the goal is for the owner to feel safe and in control. My equally important goal is that the dog is happy too. This dog's owner is stuck in the vicious of cycle of he's wild when he goes out because he rarely goes out because he's wild when he goes out, etc., etc. I'll look more into the Easy Walker. The suggestion of attaching the leash to both spots is a good idea too. Thanks so much again. I really appreciate your input.
Pennie

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Hi again Vicki and thanks for your input (although in Cesar Milan's defense (I'm a fan and some of his methods have worked marvelously for me) he is not a dog 'trainer' per se - he practices dog psychology which is a bit different (although the end result may be the same). I believe varied methods work with varied dogs - but you are correct in that the goal is for the owner to feel safe and in control. My equally important goal is that the dog is happy too. This dog's owner is stuck in the vicious of cycle of he's wild when he goes out because he rarely goes out because he's wild when he goes out, etc., etc. I'll look more into the Easy Walker. The suggestion of attaching the leash to both spots is a good idea too. Thanks so much again. I really appreciate your input.
Pennie

Well, any trainer who is worth anything should have a very clear understanding of canine behavior, reading body language, basic ethology, learning theory and how dogs learn. My problem with Cesar actually is that he says he uses "dog psychology" which is basically pack theory/dominance training which many science based dog and animal trainers don't subscribe to. His methods were used by basically all trainers 20 years ago, but many stopped when more was learned about animal learning theory. So, it's nothing new, just remarketed. But, honestly, the whole Cesar Milan debate is another one that is a real hot potato for me so I am going to steer clear of discussing him.

 

[Ranyart]

Fine by me - and thanks again for your input.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Fine by me - and thanks again for your input.

No problem

 

[Emmilyy]

wow, when i posted about the prong collar i never imagined the thread would blow up like this! I like it, lots to read through and lots of good info!

 

[mtngirl]

I have not read this post all the way through, but I wanted to comment regarding the short-nosed brachycephalic breeds. I currently live with three pugs (previously four). My pugs compete in obedience and rally trials, are therapy dogs, and have worked in some agility classes. I agree with Vicki completely. In my first training course with my first pug Nixon, I was forced to use a prong collar. This was before I knew anything, and I was in college and not very confident about presenting my view point. Nixon developed little bruises where the prongs touched his skin. We quit that class. The bruises developed when the instructor taught us how to use the collar appropriately....not because I was using it wrong. I use nothing but positive training. Pugs have a reputation of being stubborn and difficult to train....and it seems to be a common comment regarding all brachycephalic breeds. Can they be difficult at times? Yes. Are they border collies? No. But, my pugs walk very well on leash and off leash and have numerous rally and obedience titles. Positive training without the use of aversive techniques really do work. They may take longer than aversive techniques, but, in the long run, you will have a better understanding and relationship with your dog. I consider the pugs my equal. If there is a behavioral problem, it is because I have not communicated well with my dog. I find it surprising that most people practice these techniques with their parrots but not their dogs. This is why popular trainers like Cesar Milan sicken me. It has made it "okay" to use these techniques on dogs. Who wants a dog who does not have the right to say "no?"

 

[Hypancistrus]

I tried a normal collar, a Gentle Leader and a martingale collar with Riley in the first two years I had him. He was a complete nightmare to walk on a leash. We finally called it quits and entered him in an obedience class after Christmas this year and they gave us a leather leash and a chain collar. With the chain collar, Riley has been a different dog. He will now walk calmly down the street more or less next to me without pulling. It's crazy, the difference... At this class, they seem to use the prong collars on the big, strong dogs, like bully breeds, Dobes and Rotties.

Forgot to add... both Tara and I have tried the Gentle Leader and neither of our dogs did well with that. Riley rears up like a horse when wearing one, and would rub his face on the sidewalk constantly. Tara's whippet, Spin, did the same thing, to the point that he scraped his face bloody. Not all solutions work for all dogs. Sometimes positive, food based programs work, and when they do, that is great. But sometimes they don't. It's about finding a solution that works for YOUR dog.