Prong collars?

[BraveheartDogs]

here's a question- what would you do for a dog with a short snout. We were told not to use a choker collar because of their sensitive tracheas or the Halti on our English Bulldog/Boston Terrier because of his already short snout and pushed back nose. We tried it and he was able to get out of it!
The gentle leader harness didn't stop him at all.. lol... he would just pull sideways

We would love to get an American Bulldog in the future so obviously we'd have to go through the training process again with a stubborn, short snout dog!! (Though some American bulldogs have a further extended snout that Porkchop).... suggestions for a potential American Bulldog?

Again, neither a choke collar or a prong collar are options to me. They both are aversive and cause pain to the animal.

Pulling sideways is ok, it is better than pulling forward because you can just continue to change direction until you get a loose leash and reinforce and he isn't getting reinforced for moving forward. The sensation may have been a better choice and you can clip the leash to the harness and the regular buckle collar which anchors it and helps a lot too.

Usually when people say things or methods "don't work" it is because they are not reinforcing enough when the animal does it right, or the reinforcement is not good enough or they are not executing it correctly.

 

[Melissa M]

Awesome posts you guys! I admit I have used one in the past in training my 5 Rottweilers. Now having said that, they never pulled, but when in training, if they didn't listen, I did the quick pop and release the lead to get their attention, then they stopped. Now I do not use those collars, not even a choke collar. The collar I use is mostly a nylon collar with a chain looped through each end and connected by an o ring. They know the sound the chain makes when popped, so they stop instantly if need be, but they don't even try to get out of hand anymore.

I honestly think its the noise the chain makes, that makes them behave on lead. That is just my opinion and the experience I've had with using them. The noise catches them off guard and gets their attention. Then of course they are rewarded.

And by the quick pop and release, I don't mean yank the heck out of the lead and then let up. Just a quick little pull and then you loosen up the lead. I don't want anyone to think I'm yanking the heck out of my guys. LOL I don't even have to use a lead with them anymore because while doing Obedience classes, we also use the hand method. My female Rottie, I don't even have to use words...she knows by my hand signals what I want from her.

I love seeing how other trainers train and what methods they use...what works for some may not work for others, but.........a big BUT...I love to learn new methods in case if I ever need to try and use them.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I love seeing how other trainers train and what methods they use...what works for some may not work for others, but.........a big BUT...I love to learn new methods in case if I ever need to try and use them.

But, I have to say this, there ARE methods that work for all animals. I have done clicker training with dogs, birds, giraffe, lemurs, tortoises, cats, chickens, sheep, goats, hogs, horses and I know I am forgetting a few. It is possible, if people want to, to train without aversives.

Marine mammal trainers are training HUGE animals without force. They do not have the back up of a prong collar when they think a whale or dolphin is getting "out of hand", they have to rethink their training plan and redesign it so that the animal can have success and learn.

This is why training other species is so great for anyone interested in training to do. There is no baggage about myths and misconceptions about certain breeds or about the fictional dogs that are attempting to "take over" the world with dominance and social hierarchy. There is just a trainer, an animal and reinforcement (or no reinforcement if they don't get it right).

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Awww..I wish you could come and help me train Heartly some more. I have had 3 trainers out!!! He is much better with many of the problems I was having. But, he still has some behaviors I would like to correct.

PM me, maybe I can give you some references....

 

[Nikki]

Vicki what do you recommend with barkers? My 3 are great, but when I'm out of site while they're playing in the backyard they go nuts at any little thing with their constant barking. In the house they only bark if they hear someone outside the house which I'm fine with.

 

[Melissa M]

Vicki I'm in Vet Tech school right now and one thing we do each semester is "adopt" animals from the shelters, spay/neuter them, vaccinate them, train them and then we adopt them out ourselves. We had one Lasa that came to us that was blind and he had NO manners what so ever. LOL Because of his issues, we had to clicker train him. It took forever, but he got the hang of it. Now we didn't adopt him out last semester, he stayed at the school during our break and the animal care takers did not keep up with the clicker training and now he "rules" the roost so to speak. He has been adopted out by one of my fellow senior students and is back on track. She is the first student that worked with him, so he does everything she asks him to do. LOL

What we use in school for basic obedience training is the Gentle Leader. When on and used properly, it works wonders. But the only thing I've seen "bad" about it is when they are off the Gentle Leader and on a regular collar and lead, its like they are right back where we started from...no "manners" what so ever. The Vet of our department wants us to have Gentle Leaders on them at all times when we are with them...even when we show them to potential adopters because they behave so well. I guess my question is, what can I do to make them behave off of the Gentle Leader so that the adopters are not blind sided by this when they get home?

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vicki I'm in Vet Tech school right now and one thing we do each semester is "adopt" animals from the shelters, spay/neuter them, vaccinate them, train them and then we adopt them out ourselves. We had one Lasa that came to us that was blind and he had NO manners what so ever. LOL Because of his issues, we had to clicker train him. It took forever, but he got the hang of it. Now we didn't adopt him out last semester, he stayed at the school during our break and the animal care takers did not keep up with the clicker training and now he "rules" the roost so to speak. He has been adopted out by one of my fellow senior students and is back on track. She is the first student that worked with him, so he does everything she asks him to do. LOL

What we use in school for basic obedience training is the Gentle Leader. When on and used properly, it works wonders. But the only thing I've seen "bad" about it is when they are off the Gentle Leader and on a regular collar and lead, its like they are right back where we started from...no "manners" what so ever. The Vet of our department wants us to have Gentle Leaders on them at all times when we are with them...even when we show them to potential adopters because they behave so well. I guess my question is, what can I do to make them behave off of the Gentle Leader so that the adopters are not blind sided by this when they get home?

I used to use Gentle Leaders alot more than I do now. They are not my first choice because they can be aversive to some animals, they don't fit correctly on brachycephalic breeds and they take timeto desensitize the animal too. I love them for aggressive or reactive dogs though (which I am of course working subthreshold of the trigger). But, to transition them you can do things like start the walk on the GL then take it off for periods while reinforcing a lot when they get it right and put it back on if you need to. I think it's great that you clicker trained the Lhasa. I love clicker training (in case you haven't noticed. It is amazing to see the dog have an ah-ha moment and realize that he can participate and try to figure out what you want. Very cool

 

[Melissa M]

Thank you so much! I'm only there for one more semester, but I will apply that before I graduate with my animal that I'm personally assigned to next semester. Who knows, I may be coming to you for advice! LMBO

And yes...those ah haaaa moments are a blessing in disguise! HAHA!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vicki what do you recommend with barkers? My 3 are great, but when I'm out of site while they're playing in the backyard they go nuts at any little thing with their constant barking. In the house they only bark if they hear someone outside the house which I'm fine with.

Time outs. I would teach a warning cue like "that's enough" and if they quit barking (which they won't initially of course) you reinforce them for being quiet. If they bark again you mark the barking by saying "time out" or some other verbal marker (I say "too bad for you") and then put them in a time out for 3 to 5 minutes. If they like being outside, this will be effective.

A lot of dogs are reinforced for barking. For instance, if the dog alert barks, at say, the mailman and the mailman goes away (because that is what mailmen do) then the barking is reinforced by the intruder leaving. This goes on daily and the dog has a huge, rich reinforcement history and the barking goes up.

If your dogs are reactive to the environment then there is definitely some anxiety involved so you have to be particularly careful.

My dogs bark at squirrels on the fence. Because I have 10 dogs I am too lazy to train it individually with all of them, so I just bring them inside (they do stop barking and come in immediately when called).

 

[GigQQgles]

Vicki..thank you so much for your advice. I really did not want to use either the choker or prong collar but that is what was required for the class since I was working on getting him trained as a therapy dog. The classes around here require the dog be on a choker of some form in order to take the test. Max did not seem to ever be hurt by it and I did get the prong covers. Now that class is over I no longer use either on him. He has a regular nylon collar and behaves really well. I have opted out of putting him through the therapy dog program because I like my dogs to act naturally.....not over trained. If that makes sense.

 

[Emmilyy]

Vikki, I just wanted to tell ya i have alot of respect for you. I didn't say anything because i didn't want anyone to get mad, because alot of people seem to use them here, but i don't care if those collars look worse than they are, IMO, they are still terrible. I'd never force my dog into doing something with collars like that, or anything. I want them to trust me, not be scared of me.


My chihuahuas are not trained well at all. I wish they were. they listen to my dad perfectly most of the time, but when they're outside and they see another dog - BAM. i lose them and they don't listen. I can't walk them its so hard. Poppie pulls so hard she has trouble breathing, in a harness and a collar! she barks and growls and snarls, its horrible! If we run into another dog despite my best efforts to avoid them at all costs, i pick her up and walk quickly away. I know thats probably one of the worst things i could do but *sigh* i dont know what else there is to do.

 

[piercesdesigns]

I am a little offended that I feel painted as an abuser because I use a tool that provides a mechanism to keep a dog from pulling and injuring me. Guess I am the one who needs to leave the thread.

 

[Quiverful]

I am a little offended that I feel painted as an abuser because I use a tool that provides a mechanism to keep a dog from pulling and injuring me. Guess I am the one who needs to leave the thread.

No, you don't need to leave the thread. I feel the same way you do. I also feel that everyone has different ways of doing things and it's fine to talk about those ways. We just have to be careful to not insult others who feel differently

 

[crazyanimal]

Vicki, I love your insight. At the time, I didn't know much of anything else when I got my rotty puppy. I guess my biggest concern was to make her a well behaved dog so she would not be stereotyped like all the others.

After her walking was under control, I did train her with positive reinforcements and treats. She learned to roll over, sit, heal, shake, double shake (switching paws), play dead, speak, take off my sock and a few other things by hand commands only. This was all done by treats and a big hug and kiss and petting. The taking off my socks was actually a trick by accident. I was trying to get her to do something and she wasn't doing what I wanted, she couldn't understand why I wasn't giving her the treat so she tried something new... pulling on my sock. Hence the taking off the sock trick. She understood that doing the right thing meant a treat and a love session.

I think our biggest accomplishment was going outside to the bathroom. She would stand at the door and whine or scratch at the wall... two issues came into play. If I was in the other room and didn't hear her whine she would dirty in the house. Or scratching at the wall was not heard from the other room and the same result. The scratching at the wall was also damaging the wall. I purchased a huge xmas bell and hung it where she would scratch. With rewards and encouragement, I trained her to hit the bell with her paw to let me know she needed to go outside. It made it so I could hear it and kept her claws from ruining my wall.

If I had've known this when teaching her to walk, I would have had no use for that collar.

 

[LuvMyBirds]

I've worked in the veterinary field over twenty years. As with anything you can ask 20 experts in the field a question and get 20 different answers. So I disagree with the broad statement from above that experts, the Phd ones have disproven........

Prong collars used right definitely help with a wide variety of situations. As stated earlier by someone, they do require the proper fit and the person being taught the correct way to use the collar. Tracheal collapse is a very common problem in small breed dogs and a chain collar can cause this problem in a large dog.

Here are several links to look at:
The Dog Training Collar Report

The Prong Collar Revisited

Canine Prong Collars

We also recommend and carry a step in harness. We do not sell prong collars but send them to the local trainer we recommend for fitting and instruction.

At a regional veterinary conference earlier this year there was a session where this exact thing came up. The majority of the room all had a prong collar of their own.

m2c~

 

[Archiesmom]

I am a little offended that I feel painted as an abuser because I use a tool that provides a mechanism to keep a dog from pulling and injuring me. Guess I am the one who needs to leave the thread.

Pierce- Please don't leave the thread. I really feel that a tool is only as harmful as the owner makes it to be. If you have a prong collar on your dogs to train them and its working for you, then that's good, as long as it isn't abusing the dog (which in your case, is clearly not happening).

Vicki- I love clicker training as well, and have chosen that method to train my pomeranian. She is extremely responsive and obedient, and since she was a rescue from an extreme trauma situation (puppymill in KY, the left all of their dogs in their cages to starve and die, when I got her she was just beginning to regrow her hair because she was so emaciated and in such poor health she had shed everything and was bald. I still have the sweater an old woman at the nursing home knit for her because she felt so bad) I had to find something where I could start with Square 1 and continue to use it all the way through her training to give her constancy. The clicker training really established a form of communicating with her, and now it only takes a couple of minutes for her to learn something new, once she gets it right and hears the click, we reinforce it a couple of times and its in her arsenal of "how to be a good doggie".

Major was another rescue, but we got him young enough to work with him and he is more "Paul's dog". Major is naturally obedient and very smart, just seems to know what we are asking, so he never has had the opportunity to go to class for clicker training. We have and still do occasionally use a gentle leader on him as he can get very pushy when he wants to go somewhere, or when he sees something he wants to chase.

What is most important is in the end, we are working to better establish a line of communication between our dogs so that we can convey our wants and needs to the dog, and them to us

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vicki..thank you so much for your advice. I really did not want to use either the choker or prong collar but that is what was required for the class since I was working on getting him trained as a therapy dog. The classes around here require the dog be on a choker of some form in order to take the test. Max did not seem to ever be hurt by it and I did get the prong covers. Now that class is over I no longer use either on him. He has a regular nylon collar and behaves really well. I have opted out of putting him through the therapy dog program because I like my dogs to act naturally.....not over trained. If that makes sense.

It totally makes sense. It's sad to me that a lot of dog programs still use compulsion training especially when the goal is to make them enjoy working with people! But the good news is that many of them (including guide dogs) are starting clicker programs because the drop out rates with the traditional training programs are so high. I have friends who are doing clicker training with schutzhund dogs, search and rescue dogs and assistance dogs.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vikki, I just wanted to tell ya i have alot of respect for you. I didn't say anything because i didn't want anyone to get mad, because alot of people seem to use them here, but i don't care if those collars look worse than they are, IMO, they are still terrible. I'd never force my dog into doing something with collars like that, or anything. I want them to trust me, not be scared of me.


My chihuahuas are not trained well at all. I wish they were. they listen to my dad perfectly most of the time, but when they're outside and they see another dog - BAM. i lose them and they don't listen. I can't walk them its so hard. Poppie pulls so hard she has trouble breathing, in a harness and a collar! she barks and growls and snarls, its horrible! If we run into another dog despite my best efforts to avoid them at all costs, i pick her up and walk quickly away. I know thats probably one of the worst things i could do but *sigh* i dont know what else there is to do.

Thank you

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I've worked in the veterinary field over twenty years. As with anything you can ask 20 experts in the field a question and get 20 different answers. So I disagree with the broad statement from above that experts, the Phd ones have disproven........

Prong collars used right definitely help with a wide variety of situations. As stated earlier by someone, they do require the proper fit and the person being taught the correct way to use the collar. Tracheal collapse is a very common problem in small breed dogs and a chain collar can cause this problem in a large dog.

Here are several links to look at:
The Dog Training Collar Report

The Prong Collar Revisited

Canine Prong Collars

We also recommend and carry a step in harness. We do not sell prong collars but send them to the local trainer we recommend for fitting and instruction.

At a regional veterinary conference earlier this year there was a session where this exact thing came up. The majority of the room all had a prong collar of their own.

m2c~

The PhD statement was referring to pack theory/dominance theory training, not equipment. That being said all of the veterinary behaviorists (not vets, but veterinary behaviorists) that I know or that I have heard lecture are all against using aversives including choke collars, prong collars and shock collars. I am simply saying that there IS another way. It is possible to change and build behavior without them. Like you I have worked in the veterinary hospitals off and on since the mid 1980s, I have met very few vets that are behavior experts, it is simply not their area of expertise. They are trained in medicine, unless they are veterinary behaviorists.

Prong collars can suppress behavior, all punishment can when it is done properly, that's not my point. My point is that I, an many other trainers and owners, are not willing to use equipment that uses aversives and pain to change behavior. It is simply not an option for me. For the record, I would not ever use a choke collar either.

I realize that to some people they can "work" but for me, "working" means I do not harm my animal. JMO

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I am a little offended that I feel painted as an abuser because I use a tool that provides a mechanism to keep a dog from pulling and injuring me. Guess I am the one who needs to leave the thread.

I am sorry if I made you feel that way. I do not think you are abusing your dog, I just don't think we need to use aversive equipment to train animals.