Prong collars?

[LuvMyBirds]

[/QUOTE] My point is that I, an many other trainers and owners, are not willing to use equipment that uses aversives and pain to change behavior. [/QUOTE]

My point is I disagree with your blanket statement that using a prong collar = pain. I invite you to my house to see if my GSD exhibits any iota of displeasure when he see's his collar.

As with your blanket view: [/QUOTE] not willing to use equipment that uses aversives and pain to change behavior[/QUOTE] I would also invite you to view the following article from:
The Humane Society

Your last statement:
[/QUOTE] I realize that to some people they can "work" but for me, "working" means I do not harm my animal. JMO [/QUOTE]
insults me and half the people that have read this thread IN JUST MY OPINION.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

My point is that I, an many other trainers and owners, are not willing to use equipment that uses aversives and pain to change behavior. [/QUOTE]

My point is I disagree with your blanket statement that using a prong collar = pain. I invite you to my house to see if my GSD exhibits any iota of displeasure when he see's his collar.

As with your blanket view: [/QUOTE] not willing to use equipment that uses aversives and pain to change behavior[/QUOTE] I would also invite you to view the following article from:
The Humane Society

Your last statement:
[/QUOTE] I realize that to some people they can "work" but for me, "working" means I do not harm my animal. JMO [/QUOTE]
insults me and half the people that have read this thread IN JUST MY OPINION.[/QUOTE]

Then keep using them, and I will keep not using them. I think they are unnecessary, inhumane and painful. You don't. It's fine to disagree. Your happy with them, you use them, cool, have at it. My dogs and the dogs that I work with will not ever feel them on their necks. It's all good. As far as insulting people, well, if I have encouraged some people to think twice about using them and training with punishment then I can live with that. Also, I am not sure why you should be able to speak your thoughts and opinions on them, but I should not so as not to "insult". I am insulted and offended by their use, so if I have insulted "half the people that have read this thread" which I find hard to believe, then again, I can live with that.

 

[feebee]

wow, what great information, on here, i now know what an easy walk harness is for (saw one the other day thinking the person had put a harness on wrong )

i am currently training my puppy Max he is 7 months old, a king charles, his training classes are great, they dont make us do anything we dont want, they have taught me a lot, as Max is the first dog i have ever owned (Delby in my sig was a rescue but pretty well behaved),

Max's trainer said he was the best she had ever seen at the 'wait' command for his age (wait till i tell you what to do next, might be down, come, whatever) i believe this to be 1 of two reasons, i work with children (my youngest 2) so i used wait heaps from day one, of course wait use to be wait and 10 seconds later he was released, but still, now i can make him wait for as long as i need,
my second reason, he improved so much when i started using wait at the bottom of the stairs (i use to carry him up cause he was to little) the only reason he comes up stairs is to either sleep in our bed for a while, or sit with me on the computer but either means snuggle time! and to him this was his reward (well i think so) i now dont need to use treats to reward, however 70% of the time i still do, as i want to reinforce him still, we now are working on long distance commands, and a few tricks, like hand shake (though we say high five) roll over, touch (his nose touch my hand), bang (act dead)..

however i cannot get him to heal or walk easy but i find he doesnt pull that much on the lead (he normally gets walked on harness, and does better on one then the collar) but it would be nice to have him walk nicely sometimes, esp when i have children with me i cant have him running around all the place, it would be nice to have him understand sometimes he has to walk next to me, sometimes he can sniff everywhere, (he does walk nicely next to a pram so that's good) but what should i do to encourage him to walk nicely? (my nicely is him not pulling across me, to stay on the side the lead is)

 

[BraveheartDogs]

wow, what great information, on here, i now know what an easy walk harness is for (saw one the other day thinking the person had put a harness on wrong )

i am currently training my puppy Max he is 7 months old, a king charles, his training classes are great, they dont make us do anything we dont want, they have taught me a lot, as Max is the first dog i have ever owned (Delby in my sig was a rescue but pretty well behaved),

Max's trainer said he was the best she had ever seen at the 'wait' command for his age (wait till i tell you what to do next, might be down, come, whatever) i believe this to be 1 of two reasons, i work with children (my youngest 2) so i used wait heaps from day one, of course wait use to be wait and 10 seconds later he was released, but still, now i can make him wait for as long as i need,
my second reason, he improved so much when i started using wait at the bottom of the stairs (i use to carry him up cause he was to little) the only reason he comes up stairs is to either sleep in our bed for a while, or sit with me on the computer but either means snuggle time! and to him this was his reward (well i think so) i now dont need to use treats to reward, however 70% of the time i still do, as i want to reinforce him still, we now are working on long distance commands, and a few tricks, like hand shake (though we say high five) roll over, touch (his nose touch my hand), bang (act dead)..

however i cannot get him to heal or walk easy but i find he doesnt pull that much on the lead (he normally gets walked on harness, and does better on one then the collar) but it would be nice to have him walk nicely sometimes, esp when i have children with me i cant have him running around all the place, it would be nice to have him understand sometimes he has to walk next to me, sometimes he can sniff everywhere, (he does walk nicely next to a pram so that's good) but what should i do to encourage him to walk nicely? (my nicely is him not pulling across me, to stay on the side the lead is)

He is adorable, I love Cavaliers, I actually show several of them in the breed ring I teach my dogs that when the leash is on, it need to be loose, they may not pull. The leash on is the cue not to pull. I also teach a cue that means "I need you to be in competition heel position and focus", for when we are doing obedience or rally or when I just need them to be in position.

I would have training sessions and teach the position. It is critical to reinforce (feed) in position, so if you want the dog on your left side, the food should be delivered close to your left leg. You click for action and you reward in position. If you have to, you can give him a bit less leash (making sure that he is choosing to be there, not being held there, or he isn't really learning). It is also important to click while you are moving or if you are not clicking to feed while you are moving so they don't just get reinforced for standing in heel position but for actually moving in the position. Hope this makes sense

 

[feebee]

He is adorable, I love Cavaliers, I actually show several of them in the breed ring I teach my dogs that when the leash is on, it need to be loose, they may not pull. The leash on is the cue not to pull. I also teach a cue that means "I need you to be in competition heel position and focus", for when we are doing obedience or rally or when I just need them to be in position.

I would have training sessions and teach the position. It is critical to reinforce (feed) in position, so if you want the dog on your left side, the food should be delivered close to your left leg. You click for action and you reward in position. If you have to, you can give him a bit less leash (making sure that he is choosing to be there, not being held there, or he isn't really learning). It is also important to click while you are moving or if you are not clicking to feed while you are moving so they don't just get reinforced for standing in heel position but for actually moving in the position. Hope this makes sense

hmm i will read it with a fresh pair of eye tomorrow, but i dont clicker train, so do i just treat instead?

oh wait i think i get it, you mean while he is on leash he is always walking nicely, but there is also a heal command (on or off leash) and when he is off leash that is the time he can run and sniff everything?

 

[BraveheartDogs]

hmm i will read it with a fresh pair of eye tomorrow, but i dont clicker train, so do i just treat instead?

oh wait i think i get it, you mean while he is on leash he is always walking nicely, but there is also a heal command (on or off leash) and when he is off leash that is the time he can run and sniff everything?

When I am out for a walk with my dogs, on leash I do not have a command, the leash on them is the cue not to pull, they are trained not to pull, however they may sniff, wander and be dogs. But, if I need them to get into position, on my left side, walking beside, I cue that because I have trained it as a separate behavior. Does that make sense?

So, you can be out for a walk and when you need him to you can say "side" or "heel" or whatever and he finds the position until you say "ok" and let him do his thing again.

It's ok if you don't click, you just need to feed while the dog is moving so he understands that it is the moving, at your side without pulling that you are reinforcing.

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

I have one question what is a greyhound collar ? could I see a picture of one I am looking for an alternative for my large 95 pound dog I belive in positive reinforcement but do have a choke for the vet and would rather have an alternative he can slip out due to his head I have used a german choke but before there was positive reinforcemnt techniques 40 years ago with a dog with mental problems would forget 125 pond dog but that was the exception rather then the rule

 

[feebee]

When I am out for a walk with my dogs, on leash I do not have a command, the leash on them is the cue not to pull, they are trained not to pull, however they may sniff, wander and be dogs. But, if I need them to get into position, on my left side, walking beside, I cue that because I have trained it as a separate behavior. Does that make sense?

So, you can be out for a walk and when you need him to you can say "side" or "heel" or whatever and he finds the position until you say "ok" and let him do his thing again.

It's ok if you don't click, you just need to feed while the dog is moving so he understands that it is the moving, at your side without pulling that you are reinforcing.

that make sense, now to put it into practise, how do i teach him what side is? sorry to hijack the thread!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I have one question what is a greyhound collar ? could I see a picture of one I am looking for an alternative for my large 95 pound dog I belive in positive reinforcement but do have a choke for the vet and would rather have an alternative he can slip out due to his head I have used a german choke but before there was positive reinforcemnt techniques 40 years ago with a dog with mental problems would forget 125 pond dog but that was the exception rather then the rule

Most of us who have been training for a long time (over 25 years, or even 10 years) HAVE used chokes and prongs because that is what we were told and no one had yet said "uh, why are we not just using the same methods we use on other animals with dogs?". We know so much more now about how animals learn. I wrote the first book that is all about clicker and positive training for show dogs because there is very little positive reinforcement training in the show ring. I hope to see more people looking for alternatives

Here are a couple of pictures of martingale collars.

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

thanks

 

[waterfaller1]

What does the martingale do? And what is the positive reinforcement=food? I will send a pm,thanks for offering to help. I am not offended, even though I have, and sometimes still use the prong. I know my dog doesn't like it, I can see the look on his face when I go to put it on. He's smart. I have had three trainers out. All three had different methods. Some were worse than the prong. If there is a better way, I am all for that.

 

[akijoy]

No one should feel bad about the training tools they use because everyone knows when their dog is in discomfort, or when it's not working, and will find another way.

I posted earlier that I don't like choke chains. That's because in my experience, my dogs just kept pulling and gagging and coughing and it was not effective, and I would have to yank harder to make it work, which I didn't want to do. Having said this, I have seen them work nicely with other dogs, so a lot depends on the dog.

The prong collar was much more effective, and showed my dog quickly what was expected of him. I found that once he understood, I no longer needed the collar at all. Now, I have a very tough animal, and the use of the prong collar was like a light going on in his head.. "Oh, this is what you want! O.K." He did not see it as "punishment", but as guidance. Again, some dogs who are less confident or not as tough may find that it inhibits, rather than encourages learning. So you really have to take each dog and see what works best for him.

Here's a picture of me doing heel work with Strider, who I have used a prong collar with. When used correctly, it can be effective and neither cruel nor punishing depending on the dog. Vicki, of course, 95% of my work is with positive reinforcement. My dogs all work willingly and happily. No leash in this picture.

 

[waterfaller1]

What a great picture Monica. He's gorgeous.

 

[Archiesmom]

Strider is beautiful!
When we bought Khan from a breeder, we weren't really knowledgeable at all when it came to GSDs. Unfortunately, I don't think the person who was breeding him had any credentials besides a fancy kennel name (Khan's registered name is Marquis Shere Khan). The poor thing has been unhealthy since day 1. Skinny as all getout, despite us feeding him foods ranging from Evo, Taste of the Wild, Blue Buffalo to actually making his food for him because of his severe allergies, after a couple of years of trying to deal with it, he finally had to get some tubes in his ears to help them drain because he's had so many infections, we can never keep any weight on him...we love him, but we just can't ever keep him healthy.

 

[Birdiemarie]

Great post Monica.

 

[birdlvr466]

Beautiful picture Monica. I agree if I DID have to use some sort of collar for short term training it would be with a prong collar over a choke chain anyday. I would never ever use a choke chain even for short term training

 

[BraveheartDogs]

No one should feel bad about the training tools they use because everyone knows when their dog is in discomfort, or when it's not working, and will find another way.

I posted earlier that I don't like choke chains. That's because in my experience, my dogs just kept pulling and gagging and coughing and it was not effective, and I would have to yank harder to make it work, which I didn't want to do. Having said this, I have seen them work nicely with other dogs, so a lot depends on the dog.

The prong collar was much more effective, and showed my dog quickly what was expected of him. I found that once he understood, I no longer needed the collar at all. Now, I have a very tough animal, and the use of the prong collar was like a light going on in his head.. "Oh, this is what you want! O.K." He did not see it as "punishment", but as guidance. Again, some dogs who are less confident or not as tough may find that it inhibits, rather than encourages learning. So you really have to take each dog and see what works best for him.

Here's a picture of me doing heel work with Strider, who I have used a prong collar with. When used correctly, it can be effective and neither cruel nor punishing depending on the dog. Vicki, of course, 95% of my work is with positive reinforcement. My dogs all work willingly and happily. No leash in this picture.

View attachment 5602

Monica,

Nice picture, pretty heeling Strider is so handsome I agree that people are welcome to use whatever tool that they want to and as I said before this is a very sensitive subject for me, but I feel that I have to do what I can to let people know that there is another way. The fact is, many people are handed a prong collar or choke collar the minute they walk into a dog training class regardless of anything.

That being said, I have to disagree with something you said. Punishment by definition, makes a behavior go down in frequency. Reinforcement (whether negative or positive) makes behavior happen more often, while punishment (whether negative or positive) makes behavior go down in frequency. People sometimes think "punishment" just means hurting an animal, but punishment doesn't have to be painful (as in negative punishment where you are taking away something the dog likes to make behavior go down in frequency) it just has to make a behavior happen less. So, prong collars and choke collars are punishing, if they make the behavior of pulling go down. But, saying "no" can be punishing, stomping your feet can be punishing, even petting, for dogs who don't like touch, can be punishing. I think what you are saying is that you feel it doesn't hurt or cause pain.

For the record, I do not think that everyone here is abusive to their animals. I feel I have made friendships from this forum because I like, admire, respect and enjoy many people on here. I too used to use prong collars and choke collars but I worked hard to change ALL my methods and relearn everything I thought I knew. It was a long and at times painful journey and it would have been easier not to do it. I now choose not to use equipment that I feel is aversive. I also think, as you said that some dogs are much more forgiving and tolerant and even less touch sensitive and can "take it" but I still choose not to use it with those dogs. I don't want to do anything to a dog that I wouldn't be comfortable doing to one of my friends or any one of you. Even though I care about and respect so many of you deeply, I simply can't make myself not hurt when I hear about dogs on choke collars, prong collars or shock collars. I wish I had and am working hard on being able to separate emotionally but I am not there yet.

 

[Ranyart]

HI all - Oh boy - dog training thread. Vicki - I agree with your outlook on positive reinforcement training - it is what I base my training on also. I do, however, have a question about clicker training. As long as I've been training dogs I've never been able to wrap my mind around the need for clicker training. I fully understand the 'bridge' between the behavior and the reward. What I don't understand is why a simple voice bridge cannot accomplish the exact same thing without the need for the clicker. All the dogs I've trained have been instantly rewarded for correct behavior with "YES!" - same word, every time, instantly. I would really appreciate your input here because it makes no sense (to me) to use an item (which you may or may not have on you at all times) when your voice (which is pretty always with you) would accomplish the same result? I feel like it's adding an extra layer that is not necessary. I've always enjoyed your posts on the subject of training and look forward to your thoughts on this. Thanks.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

HI all - Oh boy - dog training thread. Vicki - I agree with your outlook on positive reinforcement training - it is what I base my training on also. I do, however, have a question about clicker training. As long as I've been training dogs I've never been able to wrap my mind around the need for clicker training. I fully understand the 'bridge' between the behavior and the reward. What I don't understand is why a simple voice bridge cannot accomplish the exact same thing without the need for the clicker. All the dogs I've trained have been instantly rewarded for correct behavior with "YES!" - same word, every time, instantly. I would really appreciate your input here because it makes no sense (to me) to use an item (which you may or may not have on you at all times) when your voice (which is pretty always with you) would accomplish the same result? I feel like it's adding an extra layer that is not necessary. I've always enjoyed your posts on the subject of training and look forward to your thoughts on this. Thanks.

I love that question You can bridge with a word, I usually teach my dogs both a verbal bridge "yes" and the clicker. The reason why the clicker is so much more powerful (in my opinion) is that it is so distinct and only means one thing, "you did it right and you will be paid". Our voices are used so much, all the time, and for many, if not most animals, you lose a little bit of the power of using something distinct like a clicker or a whistle. Particularly for trainers who are "chatty" and do a lot of chit chat during training sessions. Also, when working with fearful animals that are clicker trained, the clicker seems to offer them some security and reassurance because it is familiar and they know exactly what to expect. I think the most important thing is to make sure you are bridging in some way. Not bridging is how people get into trouble a lot of the time. So, that's why I like the clicker. When I get out the clicker my animals are fired up and ready to learn so learning can happen really fluidly and nicely. But, if I am out for a walk or in the show ring, I might just say "yes" and reward if I don't want to click. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Melissa M]

Most of us who have been training for a long time (over 25 years, or even 10 years) HAVE used chokes and prongs because that is what we were told and no one had yet said "uh, why are we not just using the same methods we use on other animals with dogs?". We know so much more now about how animals learn. I wrote the first book that is all about clicker and positive training for show dogs because there is very little positive reinforcement training in the show ring. I hope to see more people looking for alternatives

Here are a couple of pictures of martingale collars.

That is what I use now with all of my Rottweilers...the one with the chain. I knew there was a name for the collar, I just for the life of me could not remember it! LOL