Howard Voren

[pajarita]

If pajarita is who I think she is, then I think I would know the answer.... and it would be better to understand her, if you knew where and how she grew up. What she has been able to experience that most parrot owners don't get to experience. And she also keeps parrots quite differently than most owners.

And I've been wondering how one little senegal has been doing in her care.


Although her views are quite different as compared to other owners/keepers, I think people could learn quite a lot from her.



At the moment, I don't donate money to anything, but I have donated *time* to a local rescue. Unfortunately, with a change in jobs, I haven't been able to visit the local rescue like I used to. I've been waiting months now to have my days off changed so I could go help out again, and I'm not sure if, nor when, my days off may be changed. If I had the income/money, I would be more than happy to donate to various rescues and organizations to help animals! Both the wildlife organizations trying to preserve species and their habitats, as well as animal rescues and sanctuaries.


It's been interesting to see how this thread as evolved from a bird mill situation to organizations that we may or may not agree with.

LOL- Yes, you know me from way, way back, Monica. For the ones that don't know who I am, I am Beatriz Cazeneuve and have been 'dabbling' in birds for a long time (over 50 with canaries, over 20 with multiple parrots and ran my own bird rescue for over 6 years) but I love all animals. Zoey is doing great, she doesn't pluck and has become a real good eater. She is my personal pet because I promised Jim, her previous owner, that this would be the way I keep her so she spends 4 to 5 hours outside her cage and, like Wolf said, mostly on me -LOL- and, according to my husband, she is spoiled rotten and I am obsessed with her and all my other birds (or, as my family says "yes, she is a bit crazy but it's a good crazy and we love her for it").

 

[jmfleish]

This is not true, it's nothing but PIJAC propaganda meant to scare owners into not pushing for better cruelty laws. If you look at what the HSUS is lobbying for you will see (go to the page where they list their campaigns and see for yourself: Stop puppy mills, Horse and Burro protection, Animals in Research, etc). There isn't a single thing there about everybody becoming vegan or not keeping a companion animal. I am not even a vegetarian, I have no moral issue with eating animal flesh, I do, however, have a HUGE issue with an animal that was bred for food or to produce to suffer terribly all its life just so people can save a dollar or two when they buy they product. I am against battery cages for hens (The Cruelest of All Factory Farm Products: Eggs From Caged Hens | Bruce Friedrich); I am against eating an animal that is not an adult, was fed an incorrect diet on purpose or was force-fed (Abuse of veal calves unveiled by hidden camera | Toronto Star and The Truth about Foie Gras - GourmetCruelty.com - Delicacy of Despair; I am against cruel and useless experimentation on animals (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/dining/animal-welfare-at-risk-in-experiments-for-meat-industry.html); I am against anybody keeping an animal for which the person cannot provide adequate care (and I could cite many parrot owners here! I once took two mutilating lovebirds from this lady who kept them up until 11pm every night and free-fed them seeds and when I told her that they were overly hormonal and that she needed to keep them at a solar schedule and give them a better diet, she replied that I better take them because she did not cook for herself and was not going to cook for them and that she had no TV and that they were her 'entertainment' when she came home from work - and then she went and bought two new baby lovies).

For another thing, I do firmly believe that companion animals should NOT be property (this is for the 'ownership' argument). I don't think that a dog, a cat, a parrot or any animal that you consider part of your family should be 'owned' the same way you own a chair. I think they should have a different legal status, that of 'companion animals', not quite people but not something that you can dispose of if you no longer want it (that is the law of the land nowadays: if you don't want it, you can kill it - some years ago a dog breeder in Pa was told by the USDA inspector that 4 of his dogs needed medical attention -they had mange- but the breeder did not want to spend the money so he shot them in the head) but a being that has the inalienable right to good care. The 'good' care to be spelled out by species and detailed because what they have now is completely obsolete just access to food and water (even if the water is green and the food is not enough or not adequate) and shelter from the elements (even if it is a cage outdoors all year round) and it's simply not enough. France changed its law to reflect the distinction and has endowed companions animals with a 'special' legal status, the EU has bans in place to protect animals we don't (no battery ages, no veal boxes, no gestation crates, no mutilation -like ear cropping, tail docking, de-horning, etc), Switzerland has one of the strictest and most detailed laws as to what constitutes cruelty, Sweden has 'bird' laws, in Ontario, Canada it's illegal to have a 'no pet' clause on a lease, Costa Rica has banned hunting and is closing down its zoos, etc and none of these countries has banned pets or made the entire population become vegans so, if other countries have realized that their existing laws are obsolete and change them why hasn't this happened in USA? I'll tell you why I think we are 'stuck' in the 1800's when it comes to animal protection laws: because people believe the systematic campaign of misinformation and deceptive propaganda the pet industry has been putting out for years and years so as to keep the entire industry unregulated and practices up to the individuals' sense of right and wrong (something that has NEVER worked in the entire history of mankind!).

You are kidding yourself if you don't think that HSUS and PETA aren't fighting to take all legal rights to own pets away from you. You are not informed at all if you do not realize this. Just look at what the people who run their organizations say and do and where they spend their millions, that says it all.

Just one more link for you:

PeTA, HSUS, the real story

As for giving animals rights, you're really traveling on a slippery slope. The moment you treat them more than property, you're in for a heap of trouble. How do you even assign rights to an animal who has no understanding of how those rights are applied? I'm sorry, I love animals too and I agree that we as humans do not always treat them fairly, but I'm certainly not going to let the state or federal government hire an attorney for my pet because they don't think I'm treating my pet bird correctly. That's where you're headed with these kinds of laws and it borders on insanity.

 

[Hankmacaw]

By Monica - "Although her views are quite different as compared to other owners/keepers, I think people could learn quite a lot from her. "

IMO - there are many things people should not learn from Parajita.

 

[jmfleish]

By Monica - "Although her views are quite different as compared to other owners/keepers, I think people could learn quite a lot from her. "

IMO - there are many things people should not learn from Parajita.

I think that she is moved by emotion and that's a dangerous thing. It's also what the AR crowd is banking on. She doesn't see the connection between pulling on a pet lover's heart strings over chickens in battery cages and raising venison and the twisting of arms that HSUS did to get several species of parrots listed on the ESL and how devastating that is to aviculture and to those species. She doesn't see the slippery slope that granting rights to animals puts us on and how just that thought makes it easier to make owning animals harder in the long run. She gets an ooey gooey feeling inside when she thinks that she's helping an animal, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but truly in the end, it puts the AR groups further along in their ultimate indoctrination. It's a sad case and one that I won't be around to see but it's easy to see how the AR agenda succeeds.

 

[Monica]

I heard through Jim that she was doing well, but hadn't heard much beyond that. I knew she had some plucking and aggression issues, so it's great to hear an update! Knew she remained a shoulder attachment!



My question here would be, what are the laws like? What is the companion animal law in France that protects them? How does this differ to the laws in the USA?

 

[jmfleish]

Sure, they aren't trying to take our animals away from us. Here's the latest and greatest:

COMING TO A PLACE WHERE YOU LIVE SOON

Clark County Nevada
ACTION ALERT

"THIS IS AN ACTION ALERT FOR ALL CLARK COUNTY AND LAS VEGAS EXOTIC
ANIMAL OWNERS.

Clark County is in the process of drafting and attempting to implement
new animal regulations again. And this time it's a real doozy. They want
to ban the captive breeding of ALL ANIMALS that are not dogs and cats.
This will include all reptiles, amphibians, all fish, all birds and all
small mammals such as sugar gliders, rabbits, chinchillas, and all
rodents (hamsters, rats, mice). The regulation says ALL ANIMALS. This
may or may not include INVERTEBRATES, depending on how the county
defines animals. That would mean NO tarantulas, roaches, or crickets.

What does this MEAN TO YOU? It means if you own a pair of Leopard Geckos
and you keep them together and the female lays eggs and you allow them
to hatch, you have broken the law. If you breed Canaries and you allow
them to stay together and babies hatch from this pairing, you have
broken the law. If you have a fish tank full of Guppies and they make
more Guppies, you will be in violation of county law. If you breed
feeder rodents such as rats, mice, or rabbits you are breaking the law.
If you legally collect a Gopher Snake and it lays eggs and you incubate
and hatch them, you are a criminal according to these propose
regulations. As mentioned, how they define ANIMAL is going to either
make it legal or illegal to breed insects or other invertebrates. If it
makes it illegal, then say goodbye to breeding crickets, roaches,
spiders, tarantulas, meal worms, horned worms, and earthworms.
Springtails will be forbidden. Same with fruit flies.

The SECOND PART OF THIS REGULATION BANS THE SELLING OF ANY ANIMAL BY
PRIVATE PARTIES. That means ANY ANIMAL. If you get caught posting a
Crested gecko for sale on Craig's list or on Face Book or on a web site
you will be tracked down and arrested. If you invite friends to your
home and sell them ANY ANIMAL you will be a criminal. You will not be
able to sell any animal, period. No birds, no rats, no mice, no
hamsters. NOTHING. NADA. ZIP. The only way you can legally sell anything
is if you are a licensed business like a pet store. Some have claimed
they can obtain a business license for their homes. Even though it might
be possible, it is doubtful. You'll have to get a special use permit
from the county first anyway. This means that all your neighbors and
anyone that reads your license, which is provided to all the public by
law, will know exactly what you have in your house. Your home will also
be subject to open inspections by the police, animal control and the state.

Local pet stores in the area often depend on locally produced animals to
sell in their stores. Most rats and mice are produced by home breeders,
as are most feeder insect except for crickets. If this ban takes place,
many stores will have to turn to outside of Nevada sources for feeders.
This will cause a price increase across the board, meaning it will cost
you more to provide food for your animals. Many pet stores also purchase
bread and butter animals from local breeders such as Corn Snakes, King
Snakes, Leopard Geckos, Crested Geckos and so on. Once again stores will
be forced to purchase these animals out of state, causing another price
increase.

WHAT CAN YOU DO? Share this with as many people as you can. Ask Nevada
local Face Book pages that deal with pets in any way to post and pin
this to the top of their FB pages. You can also join the Facebook page
Save our Exotics at Log into Facebook | Facebook This page is
there to garner support and information about not only the county
regulations, but also for state and other local law issues. Join in on
the conversation, add ideas and give them your input. Join the Southern
Nevada Herpetological Society (Home Page and The Southern Nevada Herpetological Society | Facebook This group will keep you abreast on all
things reptile and exotic going on in Nevada.

WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO? Keep up to date on the goings on around you. Check
local government sites for anything they try to sneak in on us. And PLAN
TO ATTEND ALL COUNTY, CITY AND STATE MEETINGS WHEN YOU ARE ASKED TO.
There is strength in numbers, and we will need as many bodies as
possible to attend these meetings and hearings. You may or may not want
to publicly speak, and that's fine either way. But your presence will be
noted by the people that run things, and that's very important.

ANOTHER THING YOU CAN DO is sit back, relax and do nothing. This is not
a good option. I have learned in life to never expect to have anyone do
anything for you. If this set of new regulations effects you in any way,
it is your obligation to step up and do something about it. Here's your
chance.

Thank you for reading and please SHARE." - SNHS

There will be a public meeting next Thursday. All pet owners and others
affected should attend!

This text and information has been provided by the Southern Nevada
Herpetological Society (SNHS). Please follow the links provided above
for updates.

Contact information to voice your opposition:

By email: AnimalControlinfo@ClarkCountyNV.gov

By U.S. Mail at:
Clark County Animal Control
Attn: Jason Allswang
2911 East Sunset Road
Las Vegas, NV 89120

By hand delivery:
Clark County Animal Control
Attn: Jason Allswang
2911 East Sunset Road
Las Vegas, NV 89120

By fax: (702) 407-6829

View the proposed ordinance at http://usark.org/…/2015/02/Title-10-changes-Clark-County.pdf.

View the public notice at http://usark.org/…/u…/2015/02/Public-Notice-Clark-County.pdf.

View a letter to local businesses at http://usark.org/…/2015/02/letter-to-businesses-Clark-Count….
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[Sadieladie1994]

The all animal part is so scary. New Mexico had something similar pass about 12 or so years ago. Not many paid attention. Then there was a push by the animal rights organizations and they were holding fish and wild life to the gun to follow through. There was an agonizing period of defining what "level" or class a parrot was in and each level had different rulings. It affected pets, breeders, sanctuaries and rescues.

There are some really funny and stupid laws on the books from years or century ago. Although stupid and no longer apply they are still on the books. It takes more to get them off the books than to add a new one on the books. If the law is poorly written no matter what the intention one is stuck with what the written rule is. Writing a law is not easy. Intrepreting what a law means and how it can be applied is quite scarey. Government does some things for society but should not be relied on for everything.

 

[Crazy4parrots]

Thats like when PETA asked a California Deputy to help them ban breeding & shows of captive marine mammals by creating a bill where they officially will affect only SeaWorld since they are the only park that breeds & raise marine mammals in California. The bill was a no go xD In December 2014 the said Deputy of California announced it will be on hold until May 2017 due to major setbacks in the congress LOL and SeaWorld announced the expansion of their tanks in all 3 parks (California, Texas & Florida) California's expansion will be done in 2018 (begins in May 2015 in CA).
I doubt any law they want to implement to ban exotic pets will be approved!

 

[jmfleish]

Thats like when PETA asked a California Deputy to help them ban breeding & shows of captive marine mammals by creating a bill where they officially will affect only SeaWorld since they are the only park that breeds & raise marine mammals in California. The bill was a no go xD In December 2014 the said Deputy of California announced it will be on hold until May 2017 due to major setbacks in the congress LOL and SeaWorld announced the expansion of their tanks in all 3 parks (California, Texas & Florida) California's expansion will be done in 2018 (begins in May 2015 in CA).
I doubt any law they want to implement to ban exotic pets will be approved!

Well, that's probably true unless nobody pays attention.

 

[Crazy4parrots]

Well, that's probably true unless nobody pays attention.

Do you think someone will pay attention to PETA?

 

[Sadieladie1994]

Do you think someone will pay attention to PETA?

If the people don't pay attention these type of laws do go through or sneak in on the tail of something else.

 

[Crazy4parrots]

If the people don't pay attention these type of laws do go through or sneak in on the tail of something else.

I hope people pay attention!

 

[melissasparrots]

Aren't ferrets illegal in California? Also quaker parrots? Just something I remember someone telling me from a while ago. If quakers are illegal, then I bet at some point, someone will try to modify that law to include other parrot species.

 

[itzmered]

Quakers are illegal in quite a few states

1. Because of quaker parrots' listing as an agricultural pest, California,Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Hawaii, New Jersey, New Hampshire,Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Wyoming outlaw sale and ownership of a monk parakeet. In Connecticut, one can own a quaker parrot, but cannot sell or breed them.