Howard Voren

[Sadieladie1994]

When I started in large parrots a number of years ago diet was important as it is now. Birds were not healthy in some cases and dies and it could be tied to nurtrition. Breeders who were successful with keeping healthy birds were turned to. One friend bred birds and he would often say "I have never seen a pellet tree" He fed fresh foods and not pellets. A couple of species did not survive well in captivity when fed a pelleted diet>

You know Courtney, that's really short sighted on your part. There's a really good article on his web site about trying to understand what our parrots eat in the wild and how we come about learning what they eat in the wild and why it's not necessarily a good indication of what we should be feeding them in captivity. Why would you write something like that off just because you don't like him? As others have pointed out as well, much of the information that your vets and others know is probably due to Voren and others like him. This is why I'm not willing to just throw the baby out with the bath water.

This debate is seen at times in the health care community regarding alternative medicine/Eastern ways. Physicians were not receptive to the differences initially but them began learning different ways. The teachers were not always physicians in the traditional sense.
Now days there is more research on avian nutrition with even a few books out and a few prominent people teaching or have done research. More forward thinking avian vets are aware of the research and what new dimension is brought forward for learning and the health and welfare of our pets.

We often see here people offering birdy bread recipes or chop recipes without any "research" as it is just what they do. I just caution people to be smart and keep reading as we learn something new almost every day!

 

[Bird_lover6]

Just an fyi - my very first bird was "poached" from the jungles of Venezuela along with one of its clutch mates. In fact, my uncle did the "poaching" himself with the help of some agile oilfield workers, and then he finished raising them by hand. A couple of months later, he carried them on board a plane to bring to me and my grandmother. This was in the 1960s. It was just "done," and he wasn't evil. He loved parrots and it is where I got my love for parrots. Parrots were plentiful in the jungles of Venezuela where he worked on oil rigs, and he certainly never believed that he was endangering a species.

Things were just different then. People were not as environmentally aware.

 

[gibsongrrrl]

You know Courtney, that's really short sighted on your part. There's a really good article on his web site about trying to understand what our parrots eat in the wild and how we come about learning what they eat in the wild and why it's not necessarily a good indication of what we should be feeding them in captivity. Why would you write something like that off just because you don't like him? As others have pointed out as well, much of the information that your vets and others know is probably due to Voren and others like him. This is why I'm not willing to just throw the baby out with the bath water.

Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, as I am entitled to mine. There are plenty of other educated sources for information that are not bird mills and I'd rather use those. Will be sure to ask my vets what they useful information they learned in vet school that came from Voren, though.

 

[LaSelva]

We do provide safety, food, and shelter, for our birds. All three of those things are not guaranteed in the wild.

We should understand that this is why parrots develop abnormal behaviors in captivity.

In the wild, foraging activities, selecting (hollowing out and defending) nests, as well as avoiding predators all engage them with their natural environment. They have evolved behavioral responses (as adaptations) to all of the above. When they can't express these as in a controlled environment they substitute behaviors.

To illustrate, in the wild some species can spend up to 70% of their time foraging and less than 10 percent of their time resting. Compare this to the perch-potato lifestyle of captive caged-parrots who may spend only 30 minutes to a little over an hour feeding/foraging.

We should be careful not to anthropomorphise them and give parrots a human outlook toward their own world.

 

[Crazy4parrots]

Just an fyi - my very first bird was "poached" from the jungles of Venezuela along with one of its clutch mates. In fact, my uncle did the "poaching" himself with the help of some agile oilfield workers, and then he finished raising them by hand. A couple of months later, he carried them on board a plane to bring to me and my grandmother. This was in the 1960s. It was just "done," and he wasn't evil. He loved parrots and it is where I got my love for parrots. Parrots were plentiful in the jungles of Venezuela where he worked on oil rigs, and he certainly never believed that he was endangering a species.

Things were just different then. People were not as environmentally aware.

@Bird_lover6 People in my country (Venezuela) arent still enviromental many think that because it is a parrot (i.e captive born lovie) that they can be free and be happy! The woman that accompanies my grandma at night everytime she see my s fidshe tells me when will be the day that you will free those poor birds? Dont you see they are suffering?my heart breaks when i see the cages.. I just look at her and tell her " you say one more word about it and i kill you cause thats the PETA thinking and i totally hate PETA"... My babies arent suffering at all i have the biggest cages for them (compared to what people have here in my country) She is totally ugh cant stand her! She always tells Kiwi "hey little one one day i'll free you and you'll fly free" and i tell her "do not get close to him!"
I have 4 SS bowls when people here prefer to buy cheap plastic bowls... they are like breed breed breed oh weird it died oh well i will buy another one! and they dont take their birds to the vet ever... my vet says only 10/300 owners take their birds to a vet. Im in that 3%!

 

[JLcribber]

 

[pajarita]

Last I heard, PETA was in with HSUS. Its more palatable for people to give money to the HSUS since they are an "humane society." Without ever researching what the HSUS does, people assume they are giving to animals in need by donating. In reality, it comes out to money in to work toward restrictions on pet ownership with the ultimate goal of ending it.

Can you please provide a reputable and verifiable source for this information? Because what you are stating is HUGE and, if it is, I would like to know as I donate to HSUS but am against PETA.

 

[pajarita]

PETA actually has lobbyists in Washington and has been successful in influencing different regulations. I am pretty sure that Petsmart doesn't have any lobbyists in Washington They have over 2 million members and took in $34.6 million dollars in 2013.

LOL - Sure the do! Haven't you heard of PIJAC?

 

[Theresa]

Can you please provide a reputable and verifiable source for this information? Because what you are stating is HUGE and, if it is, I would like to know as I donate to HSUS but am against PETA.

Center for Consumer Freedom – 9 Things You Didn’t Know About HSUS
HumaneWatch

 

[pajarita]

Center for Consumer Freedom – 9 Things You Didn’t Know About HSUS
HumaneWatch

HumaneWatch, which was created and exists with the sole purpose of 'taking down' HSUS, does not count as a reliable source (it needs to be independent and reputable) but, even if it was, this does not even mention a link between PETA and HSUS.

 

[Theresa]

The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles: HSUS Investigative Report by ABC Atlanta

 

[LaSelva]

The Center for Consumer Freedom is a non profit corp. run by Rick Berman.

"For those who already know about HumaneWatch.org, Rick Berman is a familiar name. In some circles, he is known as Dr. Evil, in others, a powerful Washington lawyer and lobbyist (60 minutes did a great piece on him if you want to learn more). Mr. Berman is notorious for taking on unpopular causes and attacking them with a vengeance. He creates non-profit organizations which he then uses to pay his own company to fund campaigns focused on discrediting and attacking those organizations his clients deem most important to them. Some of the organizations he has gone after in the past are: Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) AND the Humane Society of the United States.

According to an article in USA Today (dated July 31, 2006), Mr Berman is hired by businesses to fight such efforts as "further restricting drinking and driving, mandating healthier foods and raising the minimum wage." And, PRWatch.org described Berman’s methods this way, "Berman's signature method of operation is to discredit the messenger rather than address the message head on."

"According to PRWatch.org, agribusiness is also a large contributor to Berman's company because HSUS “has had an ongoing campaign to achieve better living conditions for livestock, which, if it came to fruition, could cost agribusiness millions. A pretty powerful motivator for one to want HSUS weakened or removed from the picture completely."

 

[pajarita]

The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles: HSUS Investigative Report by ABC Atlanta

Again, this does not show any type of link between Peta and HSUS. The only thing it reports is something most donors already know, that the HSUS is the moderate lobbying arm of the animal rights movement (Peta been the extreme radical one that has a death philosophy which I do NOT agree with). Mind you, I am not against helping local rescues (I do that, too) but I firmly believe that you need to change the laws in order to 'cure' the problem.

 

[melissasparrots]

HumaneWatch | Who Said It? (HSUS/PETA Edition)
HumaneWatch | HSUS Plays Chicken with Whole Foods
Humane Society of the United States – Activist Facts

Thats the best I can do for now. It just seems like whenever PETA shows up, HSUS is also there supporting a lot of the same stuff. Years ago, I was on another forum and some of the members were just convinced that HSUS would either donate money to PETA or financially support some of the same efforts at changing laws about pets. I'm a terribly non-political person for the most part and not very good at following money trails and researching all the dirty deeds of various organizations. It appears that if you look at the board members and the higher ups in both organizations, there is some intermingling in some of their side projects. The second link above I included just because it shows a PETA person joining with an HSUS person. Sorry, I don't have time to delve into this a whole lot. It certainly seems to me that the members of both groups have more than just a casual association. I'll post any other links I might run across, but most of my spare time right now is spent snuggling my pets or flying my hawk. Not much time for internet research unfortunately.

There appears to be a significant amount of emotionally driven politics on both sides of the argument. Finding a source that is non-political will probably prove difficult. I suppose it comes down to who's politics do you want to believe the most.

 

[LaSelva]

As far as the first link, for one, what exactly does he mean by "HSUS person" and "Peta Person?" Rhetorically speaking, is he referring to legitimate spokespersons or simply supporters of either organization?

But it makes sense, and I'd imagine, that there are supporters of either who have overlapping as well as varying views. Then again the same is true of members of different religions, for example. Even within the same one.

What matters here to me is that it's obvious Rick Berman is stretching to associate the two. And really who cares?...His credibility is lost and only the uninformed don't know his true intentions at this point. I wouldn't bother fact checking what he writes or how he misrepresents it even if I didn't have better things to do with my free time. And I'd rather give that to my birds, family (I have a beautiful 2 year old daughter), or nature. Got some pretty good pictures of that Bald Eagle family this weekend. And I agree with your last point, in politics people will believe the source if it's telling them what they want to hear.

 

[pajarita]

HumaneWatch | Who Said It? (HSUS/PETA Edition)
HumaneWatch | HSUS Plays Chicken with Whole Foods
Humane Society of the United States – Activist Facts

Thats the best I can do for now. It just seems like whenever PETA shows up, HSUS is also there supporting a lot of the same stuff. Years ago, I was on another forum and some of the members were just convinced that HSUS would either donate money to PETA or financially support some of the same efforts at changing laws about pets. I'm a terribly non-political person for the most part and not very good at following money trails and researching all the dirty deeds of various organizations. It appears that if you look at the board members and the higher ups in both organizations, there is some intermingling in some of their side projects. The second link above I included just because it shows a PETA person joining with an HSUS person. Sorry, I don't have time to delve into this a whole lot. It certainly seems to me that the members of both groups have more than just a casual association. I'll post any other links I might run across, but most of my spare time right now is spent snuggling my pets or flying my hawk. Not much time for internet research unfortunately.

There appears to be a significant amount of emotionally driven politics on both sides of the argument. Finding a source that is non-political will probably prove difficult. I suppose it comes down to who's politics do you want to believe the most.

Well, of course you can't find a source that is non-political! Both PETA and HSUS are lobbying organizations so the mere nature and reason for being for both IS political.

And of course that PETA and HSUS have overlapping agendas! They are both against animal cruelty and pro more humane laws, one much more extreme than the other but still belonging to the same 'camp' (it's like the moderate Republicans and the Tea Party ones kind of thing). And, again, of course that there is crossover of higher-ups between the two (and between other organizations as well) but that doesn't prove anything, you have people working for Democrats that go to work for Republicans and vice versa all the time. It's a job, my dear, and they go to the one that pays the most or the one that provides the best future opportunity.

As to the other forums members opinions, I am sorry but that doesn't hold water no matter how you look at it.

And, yes, it all comes down to credibility and that's why proper research is so important before one makes an asseveration and quotes a source.

 

[jmfleish]

Um...HSUS does not run any animal shelters at all, isn't that enough for you? All the money you give to them goes directly into lobbying to do things like force the government to put parrots on endangered lists. They were directly responsible for putting the Blue Throated Macaw on the US Endangered List this last time around. This means that anyone who wants to buy a BTM that is not in their home state must first get a permit to do so and a permit will not be given to anyone but a serious and seasoned breeder. Bottom line, all the money you give to the HSUS goes to nothing but lobbying work and paying their staff. And if you want the ties to PETA, all you have to do is look at their CEO Wayne Pacelle

Breaking: HSUS Loses Charity Rating
Center for Consumer Freedom – 9 Things You Didn’t Know About HSUS
HumaneWatch | HSUS and Co-Defendants Pay $15.75 Million in Racketeering Lawsuit
Humane Society of the United States – Activist Facts

 

[LaSelva]

What I found online...

"The HSUS, a national animal advocacy organization, complements the work of local groups by focusing on national-level issues like ending the puppy mill industry, strengthening cruelty laws and eliminating large-scale animal abuses. We also run programs and spearhead campaigns designed to ease the burden on local sheltering groups. For example, Animal Care EXPO and Animal Sheltering magazine provide superior educational and training opportunities, while Pets for Life keeps pets with their families and reduces the number of homeless animals. The Shelter Pet Project, a national media campaign that The HSUS runs in partnership with the Ad Council and Maddie’s Fund, encourages people to adopt from shelters and rescues. And The HSUS provides rescue groups with training opportunities and important resources through Rescue Central. Finally, although The HSUS does not run or oversee local animal shelters or rescues, we do operate rescue teams, community-based programs and five wildlife sanctuaries and care centers that directly assist tens of thousands of animals each year. "

And from a third party source....

"What's not reasonable or sound is vilifying the group for its failure to be something it never claimed to be: an animal shelter. Arguing that the Humane Society is failing by not donating enough to local shelters is like arguing that the president is failing to stand up for the poor because he hasn't volunteered at your local soup kitchen."

 

[jmfleish]

Well, they (HSUS) were in the thick of things when Katrina happened and I personally know someone who was down there trying to help and she said that HSUS was down there only to promote their bottom line, not to help animals in any way, shape, or form. This seems to be their going trend. I certainly would never give money to any place that had this kind of track record over and over and over again.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

Well, they (HSUS) were in the thick of things when Katrina happened and I personally know someone who was down there trying to help and she said that HSUS was down there only to promote their bottom line, not to help animals in any way, shape, or form. This seems to be their going trend. I certainly would never give money to any place that had this kind of track record over and over and over again.

Those of us near the area know who needed the money and who were there first. It was not HSUS. A whole lot happened before then but they were fine for taking the credit for all the organizing and taking the big step to help. Nope, don't ask people in the area about HSUS. (I personally relocated/housed several birds to my home for a month and their owner stayed with me with her two dogs when she came to town).