Diet related behavior

[TWR]

Thanks @faislaq

 

[Mizzely]

@Mizzely Can I ask how you knew Jingo was barbering in the photo you posted? It looks so mild I'd almost think it was a molt (not that I'm doubting you.) Did you catch Jingo in the act or notice something else strange about the dropped feathers? I ask because my boy Roy looks like this. We recently switched over to straight pellets and now I'm worried.

Yes he did it right in front of me. Snipped a feather in two When he shifts you can see a bald patch by his left leg too. You can see a sheared feather in this photo too where there is an unnatural angel created. An all pellet diet isn't good either.

 

[Mizzely]

@Mizzely probably some micronutrient we arent providing.

Oh I'm sure of it. I'm guessing vitamin D3. I broke down and gave him a tablespoon of Cheerios last night because that's the only fortified food he'll eat! If I add vitamins too his fresh food he won't eat it. Argh!

 

[Hotpockets]

Yes he did it right in front of me. Snipped a feather in two When he shifts you can see a bald patch by his left leg too. You can see a sheared feather in this photo too where there is an unnatural angel created. An all pellet diet isn't good either.

Oh I misspoke. He's on all pellets in his bowl, whereas before he got seed. He gets fresh fruit on a kabob. I was thinking maybe the change stressed him out or something but I've never seen Roy barber and he's with me all day pretty much most days. I'm probably being paranoid.

 

[Mizzely]

Oh I misspoke. He's on all pellets in his bowl, whereas before he got seed. He gets fresh fruit on a kabob. I was thinking maybe the change stressed him out or something but I've never seen Roy barber and he's with me all day pretty much most days. I'm probably being paranoid.

I am with Jingo all day and have had him for over 6 years now. I am quite aware of tiny changes like this. Scruffy and unrefined is totally normal for a molting bird, and increased nutrition can actually spur a molt.

Vegetables are much more important than fruit, so if you can incorporate those on your skewer too that will help also. The excess sugar from only sugary fruits can cause other complications

 

[Hotpockets]

I try but he's such a butt about vegetables. Unless butter is involved he avoids them. He'll begrudgingly eat a tomato once in a while.

 

[Mizzely]

I try but he's such a butt about vegetables. Unless butter is involved he avoids them. He'll begrudgingly eat a tomato once in a while.

Have you tried it in "salad" format? My birds won't eat anything off a skewer for some reason but run it through the food processor and mix it up and they are all over it!

 

[Hotpockets]

Yeah, he looks at me like I've lost my mind, lol. I've tried mixing in his fruits too, or soaking the vegetables in apple juice. He knows what I'm up to though. He'll lick the juice off if he can or just ignore it.

 

[TikiMyn]

Yeah, he looks at me like I've lost my mind, lol. I've tried mixing in his fruits too, or soaking the vegetables in apple juice. He knows what I'm up to though. He'll lick the juice off if he can or just ignore it.

Keep trying! Henkie has been with me for 5-6 years and the bugger still only eats a selected amount of veggies! I have only actively tried for a bit over a year though, before that I offered veggies but only once in a while and I just accepted he only liked orange veggies. Yesterday he was eating all kinds of veggies on his Own, he forages through their plate, got a piece of coconut and flew away with it to eat it, so it is possible to convert super stubborn birdies as well!

 

[clawnz]

Sally Blanchard

I've told this sad story many times because it clearly makes an important point about feeding a total pelleted diet - especially one of the ones with the worst ingredients on the market. A few years ago a man called me for advice about his 12 year old Eleonora's cockatoo. A few years before his cockatoo started plucking and the feather destructive behavior turned into skin mutilation. His vet couldn't help at all. The mutilation got worse until one day the cockatoo turned back and ripped off two of his toes. The veterinarian suggested that he euthanize the bird. He called me to ask me if I had any suggestions about saving his cockatoo. His veterinarian had never asked him about the bird's diet. That was my first question. He bought the cockatoo from a breeder who was a distributor for Pretty Bird and told him that should be the bird's total diet. He didn't realize that he shouldn't have trusted her information. The food has so much crap in it - chemicals, menadione, artificial food coloring, with absolutely nothing that is healthy for parrots. Do I believe that feeding this pelleted diet as the parrot's total diet was the cause of this cockatoo's problem - WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IN MY MIND!

And the list just keeps on growing.
Defend your feeding of these fabricated foods all you like.
It is disgusting that you can treat a captive bird this way, or that you are not willing to make the effort
to look after any pet that well.
Good health does not come out of a packet.
It comes from a decent diet. And that diet is fresh foods.

 

[LunaLovebird]

Sally Blanchard

I've told this sad story many times because it clearly makes an important point about feeding a total pelleted diet - especially one of the ones with the worst ingredients on the market. A few years ago a man called me for advice about his 12 year old Eleonora's cockatoo. A few years before his cockatoo started plucking and the feather destructive behavior turned into skin mutilation. His vet couldn't help at all. The mutilation got worse until one day the cockatoo turned back and ripped off two of his toes. The veterinarian suggested that he euthanize the bird. He called me to ask me if I had any suggestions about saving his cockatoo. His veterinarian had never asked him about the bird's diet. That was my first question. He bought the cockatoo from a breeder who was a distributor for Pretty Bird and told him that should be the bird's total diet. He didn't realize that he shouldn't have trusted her information. The food has so much crap in it - chemicals, menadione, artificial food coloring, with absolutely nothing that is healthy for parrots. Do I believe that feeding this pelleted diet as the parrot's total diet was the cause of this cockatoo's problem - WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IN MY MIND!

And the list just keeps on growing.
Defend your feeding of these fabricated foods all you like.
It is disgusting that you can treat a captive bird this way, or that you are not willing to make the effort
to look after any pet that well.
Good health does not come out of a packet.
It comes from a decent diet. And that diet is fresh foods.

Oh stop it. If you are just going to keep soap boxing and not actually engaging with the very clear evidence to the contrary of your unsupported, and offensive claims, then you clearly aren’t interested in discussion. Come back with some actual evidence, not quotes from some random person on Facebook, quit being so insulting and derogatory, and then maybe someone might listen. Until then, you’re just ranting and raving, and unsurprisingly, no one is interested in hearing it.

 

[finchly]

Oh stop it. If you are just going to keep soap boxing and not actually engaging with the very clear evidence to the contrary of your unsupported, and offensive claims, then you clearly aren’t interested in discussion. Come back with some actual evidence, not quotes from some random person on Facebook, quit being so insulting and derogatory, and then maybe someone might listen. Until then, you’re just ranting and raving, and unsurprisingly, no one is interested in hearing it.

Agree... @clawnz one thing I believe you are missing here, if I;m not mistaken, is that none of us feed 100% pellets. We use birdie bread, vegetables, fruit (where appropriate), and seeds...and sprouts...in addition to the pelleted foods.

 

[clawnz]

If you feed pellets do you know if they contain this?
It is added to most pellets! So yet another reason to stop buying into the rubbish you have been told.
So we have B12 that is not needed in a real foods diet.
And this toxic Menadione, that is also not needed or any good.
All you need to do is make an effort to feed fresh.

If you are going to feed pellets then feed ones that do not contain Menadione. Why? Firstly its not allowed in human foods or supplements. People (particularly Carolyn Tielfan and the pro pellet admins at feedingfeathers) will try to tell you its safe and obfuscate talking rubbish about squibb not coming up with the paper work and citing 1963 new paper article saying the FDA banned it but denies any danger, really?

The FDA banned it as a supplement because its not required! Vitamin K is not going to be in short supply unless you are eating crap and avoiding fresh green leafy vegetables.

Most pellets supply VK via Menadione at 5 times the required rate which should come as a warning to people feeding pellets and using supplements. Pelleted diets are all ready over supplemented. Its possible to supplement most vitamins by providing a small amount of pellets.

 

[Mizzely]

Its possible to supplement most vitamins by providing a small amount of pellets.

That's what a lot of us do already!

Pellets should NOT make up the whole diet, but they have a place in the diet.

 

[clawnz]

The question isn't really is it toxic (we do know the toxic level in rats is 0.5g/kg) but is it necessary. VitK is not missing from fresh food.

Large doses of menadione have been reported to cause adverse outcomes including hemolytic anemia due to G6PD deficiency, neonatal brain or liver damage, or neonatal death in some cases. Moreover, menadione supplements have been banned by the FDA because of their high toxicity. It is sometimes called vitamin K3, although derivatives of naphthoquinone without the sidechain in the 3-position cannot exert all the functions of the K vitamins. Menadione is a vitamin precursor of K2 which utilizes alkylation in the liver to yield menaquinones (MK-n, n=1-13; K2 vitamers), and hence, is better classified as a provitamin

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/menadione...

We know what the LD50 does is but long term exposure at lower doses also causes issues

/LABORATORY ANIMALS: Acute Exposure/ ...The acute and cumulative toxic effects of menadione were evaluated by iv injection of the drug in Wistar rats. For evaluation of acute toxicity, single bolus doses of 25, 50, 100 and 150 mg/kg menadione were used. For evaluation of cumulative toxicity, 5 doses of 100 and 150 mg/kg menadione were injected every other day. Histologic and ultrastructural examinations were made from tissues of kidney, heart, liver, lung, skeletal muscle of foreleg and smooth muscle of stomach. A dose-response relationship was observed in rats whether treated with single or five doses of menadione. Menadione at a dose of 25 mg/kg produced minimal granular degeneration in the tubular cells of the kidney. Menadione at a dose of 50 mg/kg produced minimal granular degeneration in the tubular cells of the kidney and mild pulmonary hemorrhage in the lung. Menadione at doses of 100 and 150 mg/kg produced lesions in the kidney, heart, liver and lung. The characteristic lesions in the kidney included tubular dilatation, formation of protein casts in the lumen of renal tubules, Ca2+ mineralization, vacuolization in proximal and distal tubules, granular degeneration in the cortex and necrosis. Apoptosis was very obvious in kidney from rats treated at 100 and 150 mg/kg menadione. Lesions found in the heart included inflammation, hemorrhage, vacuolization, edema and necrosis. Mitochondria were swollen. Hepatic changes included inflammation, degeneration, vacuolization and necrosis. The only lesion observed in lung was hemorrhage. At the same dose of menadione, structural damage was more severe in kidney than in other organs. The lesions produced by one dose of single injection of the drug were more severe than 5 doses of multiple injection of menadione in all observed tissues. ...
Abstract: PubMed
Chiou TJ et al; Toxicology 124 (3): 193-202 (1997)


Is this what you are willing to feed a bird you are meant to love?


I can only hope you are getting this! When I say I am anti pellets, fabricated foods, processed foods, and man made supplements.

You only need to feed real foods.
It is NOT ROCKET Science. And proven WORLD WIDE. That natural foods are far and above some stale ground up mush, with god knows what in them.

 

[TikiMyn]

Vitamin K is not going to be in short supply unless you are eating crap and avoiding fresh green leafy vegetables.

Now this, this is very important. I can get my fids to eat all sorts of veggies, fruit, nuts, flowers and sprouts, but leafy greens? No, never. Sometimes I can get Fëanor to eat broccoli leaves, he destroys carrot tops but he doesn’t eat them on a regular basis. Henkie never ate a leafy green.

 

[Jas]

Now this, this is very important. I can get my fids to eat all sorts of veggies, fruit, nuts, flowers and sprouts, but leafy greens? No, never. Sometimes I can get Fëanor to eat broccoli leaves, he destroys carrot tops but he doesn’t eat them on a regular basis. Henkie never ate a leafy green.

They like to chew and shred leafy greens too!! (They do eat broccoli though) they like to chew them on any sort of fabric and leave giant green stains!!XD

 

[Hotpockets]

Menadione in Pet Food
As for the use of MSBC in animal feed, it’s been around for a long, long time and there are no verified, well-cited studies that I can find that indicate it has ever caused harm when used in small doses as a food additive. I have emphasized the last part because injections of large-doses of synthetic Vitamin K can lead to issues; again, too much of anything is harmful. “The dose makes the Poison” – Paracelsus.

There are numerous claims from well-meaning, but misguided, bloggers, animal caretakers and those that fall for the “Appeal to Nature” fallacy. The way we arbitrarily classify products as “natural” or “artificial” is inherently flawed and we cannot let something as important as health be swayed by personal philosophy.

This is where an understanding of the scientific comes in very handy. Just wanting something to be true does not make it true. The more people you convince that something is true does not make it true. Anecdotal evidence can only be trusted so far. Actual research and experimentation should be the basis of any health, nutrition or science claim.


There are studies on the safety of MSBC as a pet food supplement as recently as January 2014. The European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) has released this statement:

“Acute toxicity of menadione or its derivatives is reached at levels exceeding the requirements by a factor of at least 1,000. Menadione sodium bisulphite (MSB) and menadione nicotinamide bisulphite (MNB) are safe for all animal species at practical use levels in feed… The use of MSB and MNB in animal nutrition does not give rise to safety concerns for consumers. MSB is an eye irritant; in the absence of adequate data, the additive should be considered as a skin sensitiser. In the absence of data, MNB should be considered as irritant to skin and eyes and as a skin sensitiser. Considering the high dusting potential of MSB and MNB, the absence of data on inhalation toxicity and the chromium(VI) content of dust, inhalation exposure resulting from handling of MSB and MNB could be hazardous. The use of MSB and MNB in animal nutrition does not pose a risk to the environment. MSB and MNB are regarded as effective sources of vitamin K in animal nutrition.”

AAFCO regulations only approve the use of menadione or other synthetic vitamin K3, so if a pet food brand wants to include vitamin K in their formula, they have limited options. Vitamin K is a necessary component to health, but can be synthesized by the body by microbes and foods, like spinach and leafy greens for K1 and animal sources like liver, egg yolk, cheese for K2). So while a pet food can include those food sources, it’s not allowed to say they provide vitamin K in the diet. It’s not required to be added to pet food (in the US), but it is important for animal health.

Source and a ton more information about k3 here.

 

[finchly]

@clawnz i have read up on menadione and agree that it is possibly harmful to fids. The science bears this out in other animals, and if the bigger companies have tested it on birds and find it safe they haven’t said so.

I think if you tone down the rhetoric people would listen to you better. No one likes to be preached at.

 

[aooratrix]

@clawnz : If you want to share information, that's great. If you have proof other than that referring to results from rats, human children, etc., we'd all love to see it. I have to shake my head when I read posts citing information that is not specific to parrots. You might as well be applying results from horse research to tortoises or dogs. And you talk about quacks but use Sally Blanchard as an expert? Really? She fed her birds dairy (yogurt) weekly in her glop recipe. Any yogurt trees in the wild? Parrot biology isn't even set up to process dairy. Keeping parrots is an art, not a science: we simply don't have enough empirical, scientific evidence. If results aren't from work with psittacines, they are worthless, as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to have two premises: feather issues (plucking & barbering) can always (only?) be cured by fresh foods and pellets kill birds. You are operating under 2 logical fallacies. Also, you seem to think you're omniscient. If something SEEMS to be the case in your experience, it is not necessarily so for others. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone wrong.

PLEASE refrain from saying and/or implying that we are knowingly harming/killing our parrots with pellets. The vast majority of us feed varied diets. We ALREADY know that pellets are insufficient by themselves. My birds get pellets as part of a cornucopia of foods. If I die tomorrow, anyone can provide pellets, so my birds won't go hungry. I hope you have someone lined up that will maintain your diet in case, God forbid, something should befall you.

I appreciate lively discourse and have gleaned some good info from some of your posts, which I appreciate. However, you would be well-served to get off your high horse.