Breeder forum

[Matto]

I think we should make a rule that people who post in the breeder forum about breeding should not be inundated with responses demonizing them or trying to change their mind. Basically, I think that we should ban judgement, because I don't think it's helpful. I think that this sort of behavior, normal on that forum, can discourage people from asking questions and seeking good advice. The effect is less advised and less knowledgeable breeders. Now, if someone asks "should I start breeding?" then that type of response would be appropriate.

I think that such a rule change would make the breeder forum a more helpful and informative place. Thoughts?

 

[JLcribber]

That’s called censorship.

Anyone posting about a controversial topic on a public forum better have thick skin and be prepared to hear diplomatic opinion from any and all sides. The entire point of a forum.

 

[rocky'smom]

Sorry @Matto but I volunteer at my clinic and have seen my share of birds that some person bought and kept for a short time then decided that birds were not their cup of tea. They are neglected, aren't feed properly, starving for attention and some are abused beyond belief. They are plucking their feathers to bloody messes. And if I can stop somebody from backyard breeding, I am going say something.
I have a grey tiel who came to me with dirtiest , nastiest cage. He trusts no one not even me. He will lunge and draw blood every chance he gets.

 

[Matto]

I think that it's better to give advice and make them better breeders without making them feel attacked and afraid to ask questions.

 

[JLcribber]

An opposite point of view is not attacking (please specify).

 

[JLcribber]

give advice and make them better breeders

Or give advice and try to talk them out of it. Same diff.

 

[Matto]

I said making them feel attacked. Not that they're actually being attacked. But when people are dogpiling on and making you feel like a bad person for breeding birds, there's a good chance that they're just not going to seek out advice next time they need it. And then the bird suffers.
I'm not saying that you can't rail against breeding in other forums. But can there be *one* forum for asking questions and getting answers, no judgement?

 

[rocky'smom]

Backyard breeding of any animal, birds just fills shelters and rescues with the unwanted pets.
Example the lady who's cat had litter after litter turning all those kittens into humane society but would not spay her cat.
Backyard breeding of birds there is no money to be made if you are doing it correctly. The feeding formula is expensive, so are disposable syringes. Having them vetted with avian vet is costly. And only to have the birds ending up in rescue or shelter. Nope I will advise not to breed everytime.
Right now at the clinic there are 2 macaws, 4 cockatiels, a African grey and 4 lovebirds. That 11birds that we take care of daily. The CAG has been there for 10 months, poor thing. He is not beautiful, he has plucked himself bald except for his head. He has had E collars, birdy sweatshirts, but the moment he fully feathered and allowed to be free of all those contraptions. He naked again, plucked. We hope he finds a forever home some day but there is little chance of it.

 

[Matto]

I know that when I had problems with my breeders, I thought about posting here, but imagined the headache I would get from reading all of the unhelpful "well just don't breed" comments and decided against it. Now, luckily I have mentors and vets that I know and can reach out to to answer any questions. But suppose someone doesn't. Now, yes, it is very irresponsible to breed when you don't have mentors and vets that you can call for advice but people do it anyway and I'd rather that they get good advice from us than bull from facebook or something. But they're only going to come to us if they feel comfortable knowing that they're not going to get a bunch of "why are you breeding?/stop breeding?" responses.

 

[JLcribber]

What others forums? This is is where it’s discussed.

JMPO. Anybody who knows how to breed doesn’t come here for advice. Anybody who does is obviously a complete novice and should not be doing it anyway.

 

[Matto]

How about this forum: http://forums.avianavenue.com/index.php?forums/controversial-animal-topics.94/

 

[MahaSarah]

Well, I have two opinions on this. First I think that small hobby breeders should be encouraged to breed the right way if they are set on breeding. The large-scale breeders/mills/backyard breeders who don't care need to go.

I also think we should be asking people the tough questions on why they would want to breed, are they fully prepared to breed, can they devote enough time for breeding etc.

Everyone has their own opinions and I think everyone should have a chance to discuss their concerns with others.

So I am 50/50 on this.

 

[Matto]

Another possibility would be to make a seperate forum or sub-forum called something to the effect of "Ask Questions, Get Answers, No Judgement."

 

[Hankmacaw]

Sorry @Matto , as @JLcribber restricting comment in the breeder's forum is censorship and we don't prohibit opinions on the forum unless they are personal attacks on an individual or language. You could read the "Neighborhood Etiquette" and find out what is allowed and not allowed.

BTW - just how many baby birds and females is a novice allowed to kill while practicing their breeding and raising.

 

[TikiMyn]

I think that it's better to give advice and make them better breeders without making them feel attacked and afraid to ask questions.

That I agree with! If they are going to breed, they better breed darn well and ask the buyers loads of questions and overload them with info so the birds go to good homes.
To breed or not to is a good question, but Some people Will regardless so we better educate them. If we don’t teach them they Will always be irresponsible and the birds Will pay the price. If we tell them ‘our’(as the collectieve forum) mistakes, they can avoid them. Personally I only do adoption, but really great breeders are okay with me I do recommend adoption always, and if all breeders suddenly disappeared and this would be the last generation captive birds, that would be fine with me too

 

[Karen]

Another possibility would be to make a seperate forum or sub-forum called something to the effect of "Ask Questions, Get Answers, No Judgement."

I have often read threads where an original poster feels judged and attacked simply because they don't get like minded affirmative posts to their situation.

 

[MiniMacaw]

My opinion on this is that we aren’t children here (most of us) and certainly not the ones breeding. Why treat a forum like a kindergarten class where we all have to speak a certain way and walk on eggshells? When I first got Bowser I was so ignorant to what I needed to know, I took all the advice, especially the hard to swallow advice (Which I’m still so grateful for). If someone comments rude to a post of mine I am an adult and will go on with my day lol.
That said I do always try to be respectful.

 

[Feather]

The question of "why are you breeding?" is something any responsible and realistic breeder should be able and willing to answer. If they can't explain why they want to breed beyond "I want to" then of course the next action would be to advise them against it.

Why do you want to breed? What are you going to do with the babies? Will you be able to afford their care and upraising? What if something should go wrong? Have you considered you may be contributing to an ever-growing problem of homeless birds? These are not attacks. They're a reality check.

I'm not against breeding. In fact there are a few breeders on this forum who I respect very much. What I AM against is irresponsible backyard breeders who think just because they have a male and female bird it qualifies them to pump out babies, and unfortunately that flavor seems to make up the vast majority of people who come here asking for "advice" that, nine out of ten times, they're not going to take anyway.

 

[Matto]

Sorry @Matto , as @JLcribber restricting comment in the breeder's forum is censorship and we don't prohibit opinions on the forum unless they are personal attacks on an individual or language. You could read the "Neighborhood Etiquette" and find out what is allowed and not allowed.

BTW - just how many baby birds and females is a novice allowed to kill while practicing their breeding and raising.

I understand what the rules are at the moment, I'm just suggesting changing them with respect to 1 forum. Calling this censorship is a bit of a stretch considering this forum is not government-owned and has to draw lines somewhere. As far as killing babies and females, that is neither here nor there. But it happens. In nature, it happens. To experienced breeders, it happens. And to novices, it happens. We should do all we can to prevent this but mistakes are made in animal husbandry.

I have often read threads where an original poster feels judged and attacked simply because they don't get like minded affirmative posts to their situation.

Sure, but that's not really what I'm talking about here.

My opinion on this is that we aren’t children here (most of us) and certainly not the ones breeding. Why treat a forum like a kindergarten class where we all have to speak a certain way and walk on eggshells? When I first got Bowser I was so ignorant to what I needed to know, I took all the advice, especially the hard to swallow advice (Which I’m still so grateful for). If someone comments rude to a post of mine I am an adult and will go on with my day lol.
That said I do always try to be respectful.

Ok but not everyone is like you. Not every breeder who comes on here seeking advice is level-headed with a good sense of self. I argue that it's for the greater good to have a place where they can ask questions without being judged.

The question of "why are you breeding?" is something any responsible and realistic breeder should be able and willing to answer. If they can't explain why they want to breed beyond "I want to" then of course the next action would be to advise them against it.

Why do you want to breed? What are you going to do with the babies? Will you be able to afford their care and upraising? What if something should go wrong? Have you considered you may be contributing to an ever-growing problem of homeless birds? These are not attacks. They're a reality check.

I'm not against breeding. In fact there are a few breeders on this forum who I respect very much. What I AM against is irresponsible backyard breeders who think just because they have a male and female bird it qualifies them to pump out babies, and unfortunately that flavor seems to make up the vast majority of people who come here asking for "advice" that, nine out of ten times, they're not going to take anyway.

Sure, I get that. Breeders should be able to answer these questions. But why are we inundating breeders with tons of questions and unsolicited advice instead of just answering their questions? My fear is that that attitude will discourage breeders from asking questions here and they will instead get their information from less reliable places. And I've seen the advice given on facebook groups. It's sometimes good, always well-meaning, and sometimes disastrous. I would rather they come here.

 

[Laurie]

@Matto

I have thought of these things myself. I am not for censorship but I have noticed that some people come for help when they are already in a situation that they should not have gotten into. At this point, I feel like helping them is the right thing to do and a little kindness and helpful advice are the best things to offer.

Obviously, some are passionately opposed to breeding or certain types of breeders and so they want to tell them not breed. It is not an entirely bad message but perhaps it's not always the right time to share it at least, not in my opinion.

It should always be about the best interest of the bird and when a person is condemned and badgered for the situation that they can not change at the moment and they leave, then are the birds really helped? I sometimes wonder what happens to those babies.

On the other hand, when a person is thinking of breeding then I think that is an excellent time to ask the questions and express opinions. I think most people are not cut out to be raising baby birds. There is a lot that can go wrong. My personal experience with raising parrotlets was pretty trouble free, but caiques are way different. I have had to take babies to the vet every single year that I have had them. I already know that my own knowledge and experience is more technical than what most people on the forum would offer so I just go straight to a mentor or vet. I also base my decisions on the best info I can find not popular opinion.

This year I had to take a 36 gram baby, less than three weeks old, eyes still closed into the avian specialist for toe surgery but I figure those babies are mine until I find them new homes so I need to have the resources to care for all the birds they have. I have six but right now with babies I have 14 birds so I need to have the resources to care for 14 birds not 6. I don't think most people think that way.

I only bring this up to explain what might really be involved in raising birds. You need brooders and back up brooders. Cages and extra cages. One of my fledglings decided to attack, harass and try to injure one of the others. It was a full on caique fight (not crazy play but a real fight). Without another cage on hand what would I do? Just last week a friend was visiting me and asked what the empty cage was for. Well it was for a situation like this. Everything is a bigger deal than it seems so if you don't have reserves and back ups of everything then you will certainly see the babies suffer.

Can we be that reserve and back-up for people who seeking advice for a bad situation they are already in? I would like to see that.

I guess my suggestion would be for any who are willing to help to reach out to the member personally via PM. Then they can help and avoid the drama at the same time.

Personally, I always hear people who think that bird breeders are devils who exploit birds and perpetuate the enslavement of small feathered creatures. I happen to disagree, but then again I am entitled to my own opinion and they are too