Adopt! watch parrot confidential

[Monica]

If I could not rescue or adopt, I would not have parrots. I refuse to be part of an industry that exploits animals and dooms them to half a life.

By the mere fact of having parrots in your home, you are, in a round-a-bout way (or perhaps indirectly), "supporting" breeders. If *NO ONE* wanted a parrot, if *NO ONE* took a bird home, then there would be no market *FOR* birds. Supply and demand. If there is no demand, that would stop most of the supply. Doesn't matter where that bird came from.

I do think that's a bad way of looking at it, though!

And I don't know how you feel about this but I don't think it's an either/or situation when it comes to caring and captivity.

You cannot care for that which you are unaware of. The fuertes's parrot, or indigo winged parrot, was thought to be extinct for 90 years, and now there may be less than 300 individuals in the wild. (some sites say 160-249 individuals) How many people are familiar with indigo winged parrots? How many people are trying to help save this species by supporting a group that builds artificial nesting sites for this species? I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any breeders with this species trying to help bump up the population within captivity.

Or what about the buru lorikeet? (blue fronted lorikeet) It's population is estimated to be about the same as the indigo winged parrot.

Or the blue winged racquet tailed parrot? Also sometimes called the slulu racquet tailed? Population is estimated at less than 400 individuals, possibly even under 250 individuals.


I know I'm not familiar with all the endangered, critically endangered and threatened parrot species out there.... I can't imagine that very many other parrot owners and keepers out there are as well. Many of us are more familiar with the more common species that are endangered, or those that have been publicized, such as the hyacinth macaws, the kakapos and the spix macaws, but what of the other species I mentioned, and the ones I didn't? Where is their support? How many people can even say they've heard of those species? I've heard of the indigo winged parrot and the blue winged racquet tailed, but not the buru lorikeet (not to be confused with the blue fronted mutation in rainbow lorikeets).

Both the hyacinth macaw and the spix macaws are within captivity. Kakapos are not being kept within captivity, but they *ARE* getting a lot of publicity, especially thanks to one Sirocco who decided to masturbate (or attempt to mate with) on Mark Carwardine's head and Stephen Fry said that he was "being shagged by a rare parrot".

And I don't keep an elephant, a Siberian tiger, a polar bear, a mountain gorilla, etc in my home but I still care and donate to causes that are fighting for them not to be become extinct - and I am not alone on this, lots of people do!

Most of these species have, or are, being kept within captivity, if not as pets, then in zoos and sanctuaries. The mountain gorillas have gotten a lot of publicity but failed to thrive within captivity. I did find one that lived in captivity for several years, but he died at 9 years old, possibly due to a severe bacterial infection.

And that's why we need better laws to protect them and to regulate ownership.

I actually agree with this. I know many people do not want the government telling them how they should care for their own pets (or "property", in the eyes of the law), I do believe that there needs to be something in place for better education and captive living. Sweden has laws about clipping parrots, hand raising them, and the size of enclosure they are kept in. Actually, there's even a law about how many you must have in the smaller species. I recall someone else in another part of the world that had to take a test to find out what kind of large parrot she could keep as a pet, and needed to get approved for the species before she could take one home.

In the USA, as long as they have food, water and protection, and a relatively clean environment, it doesn't matter if their home is big or small, if they are being fed properly or not, or if they are even getting an appropriate amount of enrichment. Vet care? What's that?!

 

[LaSelva]

Monica, a part of me can't help but wonder whether some of the species you mention (fuertes, etc.) that are hanging on still remain in the wild only because we didn't know about them. The Spix's' macaws come to mind - they were removed from a still intact habitat for private collectors right down to the last one. And if not for the wealth and concern of only one individual they'd be scattered among private owners unwilling to cooperate in growing the population. I think it's unfair that a demand that is driven by so many creates a burden on conservation efforts that is not equally shared. Perhaps everyone who owns a parrot has some responsibility to be aware and to help.

 

[Monica]

David, that is some good food for thought! On the flip, if we weren't aware of them, and loggers and farmers came in to their habitat and destroyed it, then what? If we didn't know about them, we couldn't try to save their habitat.

It's a horrible situation, either way.

 

[pajarita]

By the mere fact of having parrots in your home, you are, in a round-a-bout way (or perhaps indirectly), "supporting" breeders. If *NO ONE* wanted a parrot, if *NO ONE* took a bird home, then there would be no market *FOR* birds. Supply and demand. If there is no demand, that would stop most of the supply. Doesn't matter where that bird came from.

Monica, what are you saying? That rescues (farm animals, dogs, cats, horses, birds, etc) contribute to the overpopulation problem and are 'indirectly' supporting breeders? That rescues should not exist? That PETA is right and each and every unwanted animal should be put to sleep?!

You cannot care for that which you are unaware of..

You are right about this but been aware doesn't necessarily mean keeping them in your home.

 

[Monica]

Monica, what are you saying? That rescues (farm animals, dogs, cats, horses, birds, etc) contribute to the overpopulation problem and are 'indirectly' supporting breeders? That rescues should not exist? That PETA is right and each and every unwanted animal should be put to sleep?!

I don't seem to recall mentioning that animals should be put to sleep.... or that we should not keep animals as companions..... that we should all become vegans to end animal suffering.... feel free to *NOT* put words in my hands!

What I'm saying is, that if there is no one willing to take in birds (or other animals), then there will be no market for those birds, which would shut down all breeders except the hobbiests - those who don't do it for the money and not on a large scale. (or big time breeders who are simply rich and can keep breeding despite the size of their large flock, upkeep and care)

You are right about this but been aware doesn't necessarily mean keeping them in your home.

I did mention zoos, sanctuaries and publicity as well......


And there are endangered animals who are not getting any of that!

 

[pajarita]

I don't seem to recall mentioning that animals should be put to sleep.... or that we should not keep animals as companions..... that we should all become vegans to end animal suffering.... feel free to *NOT* put words in my hands!

What I'm saying is, that if there is no one willing to take in birds (or other animals), then there will be no market for those birds, which would shut down all breeders except the hobbiests - those who don't do it for the money and not on a large scale. (or big time breeders who are simply rich and can keep breeding despite the size of their large flock, upkeep and care)


I did mention zoos, sanctuaries and publicity as well......


And there are endangered animals who are not getting any of that!

Monica, if nobody took in the unwanted animals so as not to 'indirectly' create a demand from the breeders, how do you suggest the overpopulation is 'taken care of'? Because, as far as I know (and correct me if I am wrong), the only other 'method' is either euthanasia or just abandonment which also ends up in death. And how does rescuing unwanted animals benefit breeders exactly? Because, as far as I know, it doesn't in any way, quite the contrary, as the animal that is rescued and placed in a good home is taking the place of an animal that would have come out of a breeding establishment so, in reality, rescues 'take money' away from breeders and eliminate part of the demand - but I might be wrong and not seeing some other side...

I was responding to your:
"If parrots were never within captivity, never in our homes, never in zoos or educational programs, would we love and care for them as much as we do? Would we care about whether or not they became extinct in the wild? Would we strive to save the species at all if we knew nothing about them?"

To which I answered that I don't go to zoos and don't have a mountain gorilla in my house but I still donate to their cause. I wish I could donate to all the endangered animals but I don't have enough money. But knowing or not knowing about these subjects is up to the individual. Same as it's helping or not helping. If you want to learn and you want to help, you do. Problem is people talk the talk but they don't walk the walk when it comes to their professed love for animals. I would like to know how many members of this site, all parrot lovers, donate on a regular basis to preserve parrots in the wild. Because, in your opinion, keeping them in our homes is what makes us aware and care enough to make a difference but, obviously, that is not the case because taking into consideration how many hundreds of thousands of people own and love parrots right here in the States alone and if this is what makes a person donate to keep them alive, the programs would have lots and lots of money but they don't.

 

[Monica]

I was only addressing the supply/demand part of animals, not what we would do with all the animals on the market or for rehoming right now. I wouldn't recommend abandoning them or killing them, but it brings up a valid point, that if people stopped buying animals, and breeders stopped breeding, what would we do with all the animals that don't have homes? Would there be enough people willing to take those animals in for the rest of that animal's life?

I was responding to your:
"If parrots were never within captivity, never in our homes, never in zoos or educational programs, would we love and care for them as much as we do? Would we care about whether or not they became extinct in the wild? Would we strive to save the species at all if we knew nothing about them?"

You didn't quote that one! I'm pretty sure it's been discussed before, but zoos and sanctuaries do help to educate the public about the plight of animals. Probably not all do, but the ones that have education programs and strive to teach people about endangered animals might be making a difference, albeit a small one. If you don't go to zoos, that's your choice, and that's ok! One of the best ways to inspire the next generation is for little kids to see animals up close and personal! It would be best if the animals were out in the wild, but most people can't afford to go on safari or jungle tours to visit these animals in their native habitat.... so zoos/sanctuaries can help in that manner.



I don't believe that owning an animal "makes" a person donate to a cause, but these organizations don't need *just* donations! They need for the public to be aware! And a person can spread awareness! Awareness of the issues can help to bring about change, to help create laws, or change the way things are done. If people are willing to come together to make these changes.

 

[parrotlover4]

I just want to say that i have a cockatiel and want to adopt an african grey. I will continue to own parrots. There are many in resques allready so i would gladly adopt. The ara project is one succesfull breed and relese. I want people to stop breeding for companions and stop taking from the wild. If the scarlet macaws that the ara project is relesing are surviving then other programs can work aswell. i do care that there are only about 200 hyacinth macaw pairs left. I care deeply that the spinx macaw is possibly extint in the wild. If i did not care about these parrots i would not know about these endangered parrots. Why do you think i watched parrot confidential 5 times? I really dont care how it is leanimg in the animal wrights crowed. If you carred about parrots as much as you say you do then you would stop breeding and post more about this topic on other forums. I care about parrots to much to go and buy. It would be easier to buy but im not.

 

[jmfleish]

Well, I can say that if you ban breeding, you are going to see more poached from the wild...it's just the logistics of the situation.

 

[LaSelva]

While that is your presumption I've never read nor heard of any statistical truth supporting it. Even opinions of field researchers/conservationists whether in West Africa or Amazonia, who are risking their lives - facing armed and dangerous poachers as well as disease, disagree with you. As I stated above, as long as parrots are commodities and subject to financial transactions trappers will have a market for as many as they can get to. The "pet trade" is contributing to their extinction.

For example, in the case of Grey parrots, there's no inverse relationship between breeding and trapping. Mass production in South Africa hasn't alleviated the incessant trapping and influx of Greys from other regions to further fuel South Africa's exportation.

But there are solid statistics to support the success of importation bans in the US in sparing thousands of parrots from capture. Nor were those same birds diverted to other countries. The EU has a ban on wild caught imports as well - which is a good sign. I'm happy every time a new country joins for that reason.

 

[pajarita]

Well, I can say that if you ban breeding, you are going to see more poached from the wild...it's just the logistics of the situation.

This is nothing but the argument that PIJAC puts out, my dear. Like David said, there is not a single piece of evidence that supports it. Not a single one! As with everything else, you need to look at the source of the information because PIJAC is the lobbying arm of the Pet Industry, meaning pet stores, breeders, brokers, etc. so it stands to reason that they are going to try to justify their fighting regularized breeding (if they didn't, they would all be out of a job -LOL).

 

[jmfleish]

This is nothing but the argument that PIJAC puts out, my dear. Like David said, there is not a single piece of evidence that supports it. Not a single one! As with everything else, you need to look at the source of the information because PIJAC is the lobbying arm of the Pet Industry, meaning pet stores, breeders, brokers, etc. so it stands to reason that they are going to try to justify their fighting regularized breeding (if they didn't, they would all be out of a job -LOL).

What do you think is going to happen if you put breeders out of business? Do you think that suddenly the desire for birds is going to disappear? One of two things is going to happen. You are either going to drive breeders underground and they will still produce domestic bred parrots illegally or people will get them from the wild. Considering the fact that people still get them from the wild and that the US is the number one consumer of parrots in the world and we border Mexico, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that you would see both things happen and there would be an influx of parrots coming across the border of Mexico.

It amazes me how naive people who push the adoption agenda are. You see everything in black and white and refuse to see the greys in between. There is a great deal of grey in between but by the time you see it, it will be too late.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

When one lives near the border one becomes aware of what happens at the border. One becomes aware of the "underground" activities. Yep naive is a good word to use at times.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Peggy is correct. For those of us who live near the MX border, we are very aware that it is for the most part (despite the claims of the gooberment) an open door to anyone who wants to walk over.

Billions of dollars of illegal drugs come over that border every year - so anyone who thinks that if birds aren't available domestically that they won't be smuggled in is just not aware of (or refuse to believe) the facts.

 

[LaSelva]

What I'm saying is objective and, sure, one can speculate all they want by posing questions such as "what do you think will happen?" But, there's a reality - and that is as long as parrots are desired as pets then that will drive illegal activity. Considering I support conservation efforts I keep aware of the challenges associated. There are many variables that interplay. Summing it up is not an easy matter of invoking some fallacious (politically motivated) bumper sticker-type relationship.

On the subject of borders, if anyone is interested, Mira Tweti documents and traces the path a parrot takes when purchased in Mexico and smuggled into the US in her book. So, despite breeding, it is happening.

 

[pajarita]

What do you think is going to happen if you put breeders out of business? Do you think that suddenly the desire for birds is going to disappear? One of two things is going to happen. You are either going to drive breeders underground and they will still produce domestic bred parrots illegally or people will get them from the wild. Considering the fact that people still get them from the wild and that the US is the number one consumer of parrots in the world and we border Mexico, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that you would see both things happen and there would be an influx of parrots coming across the border of Mexico.

It amazes me how naive people who push the adoption agenda are. You see everything in black and white and refuse to see the greys in between. There is a great deal of grey in between but by the time you see it, it will be too late.

I am not talking about banning breeding altogether, I am talking about regulating them, making them get a license, pass annual inspections, fulfill certain requirements in terms of medical care, husbandry, quotas, etc. I think that this measure will get rid of the bad breeders and leave only the good ones standing and, if you add to this better protection laws, we will end up with much, much fewer birds and those only in the hands of people who can keep them right.

 

[jmfleish]

What I'm saying is objective and, sure, one can speculate all they want by posing questions such as "what do you think will happen?" But, there's a reality - and that is as long as parrots are desired as pets then that will drive illegal activity. Considering I support conservation efforts I keep aware of the challenges associated. There are many variables that interplay. Summing it up is not an easy matter of invoking some fallacious (politically motivated) bumper sticker-type relationship.

On the subject of borders, if anyone is interested, Mira Tweti documents and traces the path a parrot takes when purchased in Mexico and smuggled into the US in her book. So, despite breeding, it is happening.

The name Mira Tweti alone makes my skin crawl. She knows about as much about parrots as a rock. She bases everything she knows on her ownership of a single Rainbow Lorikeet that she doesn't even want to own. I'd trust her thoughts and opinions about as far as I could throw that same rock that knows nothing about parrots.

 

[jmfleish]

I am not talking about banning breeding altogether, I am talking about regulating them, making them get a license, pass annual inspections, fulfill certain requirements in terms of medical care, husbandry, quotas, etc. I think that this measure will get rid of the bad breeders and leave only the good ones standing and, if you add to this better protection laws, we will end up with much, much fewer birds and those only in the hands of people who can keep them right.

And who do you suggest make all these laws and requirements? We've been down this road before in California and let me tell you, their recommendations were based on bad ideas that would not have been good for birds at all. Thankfully, they did not pass. The government doesn't generally make the right decisions or base those decisions on sound information, especially when it concerns items they know very little about such as parrots. You are beating a dead cow here. The best thing you can do is educate. Laws are not going to do the trick here. They will probably make the problem worse not better.

 

[LaSelva]

The name Mira Tweti alone makes my skin crawl. She knows about as much about parrots as a rock. She bases everything she knows on her ownership of a single Rainbow Lorikeet that she doesn't even want to own. I'd trust her thoughts and opinions about as far as I could throw that same rock that knows nothing about parrots.

For what I was referencing, the fact is she, along with a Mexican assistant, walked through the entire process herself and recorded much of the dialogue. From how and where to purchase through to tips given to the buyer on smuggling them in. And how often it happens.

Anyone who's read her book knows how far and wide she's traveled as well as the wide array of people from all facets of the industry she's interviewed in research for it. That's nothing anyone can take away from her.

 

[jmfleish]

For what I was referencing, the fact is she, along with a Mexican assistant, walked through the entire process herself and recorded much of the dialogue. From how and where to purchase through to tips given to the buyer on smuggling them in. And how often it happens.

Anyone who's read her book knows how far and wide she's traveled as well as the wide array of people from all facets of the industry she's interviewed in research for it. That's nothing anyone can take away from her.

I would love to read more about this if you can give me more information on it. From everything I've read about her, she's a self proclaimed "expert" based on the ownership of a single bird that she did not want to keep because it was far too much work and trouble and she based everything she knew on that one single bird. Her expertise does not go much further than that bird. She is an AR extremist from everything I know about her and just like HSUS and PETA and this "documentary" that's how she sells parrot ownership. If you based parrot ownership solely on her findings or on this documentary, you would only be getting one side of the story and a sad story it would be. I can't judge what you are telling me about her journey into Mexico without reading her accounts but from what I know about Tweti, I would guess that it is very one sided. We have an importation ban here in the states and we have no need to import parrots because breeding is not illegal here. I won't disagree with you that there is trapping going on in Mexico and all over South America but I would guess that very little of it is for the US parrot trade.