Undigested seed in droppings = PDD?

[Hankmacaw]

I would imagine that one of the first tests your vet performed was a chem panel and liver issues should have shown up there. Here is a good article that will give you a bunch of information about tests for avians.
Basic Avian Clinical Pathology Testing

Pancreatitis is another potential. Saroj12 had a bout with pancreatitis with one of her birds. This is a link to the thread - http://forums.avianavenue.com/diseases/15104-pancreatitis-graphic-poop-pics-x-rays.html

My male GW has always had a hard time holding his weight so I give him regular (once/twice per week) hand feeding of blended Harrison's High Potency pellets, almond butter, mango or papaya, ground flax, plain tofu and Prozyme (digestive enzymes and probiotics). This really helps with the weight issue.

My first act would be to remove all seeds (not nuts) from his/her diet.

Hope the answer comes very soon for you and Tiki.

 

[BirdyGirl]

I'm sorry that you're going through this. I don't have any ideas or suggestions, but wanted to chime in to say your flock is absolutely stunning!
I hope you get some definitive answers soon.

 

[Featherpaws]

the trip to the vet is stress and this can trigger certain things that bring illness out in the open. yeast infections are often triggered by a sudden change, even if it seems small to you.

last yeast infection i dealt with was caused by a diet change attempt. i followed the advice given to me to a T but munch got too stressed by the simple change of diet that she developed a yeast infection.

 

[Annamacaw]

Tiki is gorgeous! I hope she is just fine, and I am happy that you are so observant and prompt in getting her checked out.....
I hope it tuns out to be a simple explanation

 

[Macawnutz]

My BG was tested 3 times before finding AGY. It was finally found on a crop wash and not his fecals. Test Test and retest. Are you using an avian vet or the ER vet? My ER vet was sure it was PDD.

 

[katkami]

Thanks everyone!

@Hankmacaw Now that I see her showing interest in pellets and her weight is stable at 1k grams again, I think we can afford to try taking away her seeds so I did that this morning and left her with a bowl of fresh fruits/veggies and another bowl of her pellets. She had an almond butter treat for breakfast this morning

@Macawnutz She's been going to a vet office with multiple avain specialists on staff, not an emergency clinic. I will talk to my vet about AGY.

Question Regarding Harrison's avian enzymes - the package just says add a "pinch" to her food, it's not very specific. Is it possible to give her too much? I can't see how a "pinch" makes sense for all birds of all sizes. We figured we'd do a schedule like this (mixing with a little almond butter or hand feeding formula), wondering your thoughts:
M - Harrison's enzymes
T - Harrison's enzymes
W - Probiotics
T - Harrison's enzymes
F - Harrison's enzymes
S - Probiotics
S - Harrison's enzymes

[edit] I just re-read Hankmacaw's message "My first act would be to remove all seeds (not nuts) from his/her diet." - Ummmm.... I don't think she touches seeds honestly. She's mainly interested in walnuts, almonds, acorn, big nuts. So maybe I should change the subject of this whole post since I was using the term seed, but I really think it's nuts that she's passing.

 

[Bokkapooh]

@jmfleish she isn't having any neurological issues or lethargy. She also hasn't vomited (don't think I mentioned that).

Our vet did mention the Barium Swallow test the last time we spoke, I forgot to mention that... I wasn't sure if we'd get a lot out of it except maybe if she has some sort of blockage somewhere, but didn't see anything on the xrays. I'll talk to her about that again. I don't know what is involved in doing that for a bird, and if it means putting her under to do it, I'd rather not take the risk unless I know it's going to give us some useful information. I can talk to my vet about the risks of that. Thanks!

All of my birds have had this done since Bokka has died. Bokka, I thought died of PDD. No one really knows. He had a mega bacterial infection and a digestive issue before passing. It struck in 24hours...

They place the bird under anesthesia. Then they give them a liquid that will show up on the xray in bright white. Then every 30 minutes, so three xrays in an hour and half time period, they check to see how fast the barium is digested. My vet said that birds should pass the barium in 30 minutes to 45 minutes...

If they do not, their digestive system is slow and they will take note as to where it is slow at. Usually one of the stomachs, the proventriculis, the first stomack or the ventriculus, the second stomach.

 

[wonderb]

Thanks everyone!

Question Regarding Harrison's avian enzymes - the package just says add a "pinch" to her food, it's not very specific. Is it possible to give her too much? I can't see how a "pinch" makes sense for all birds of all sizes. We figured we'd do a schedule like this (mixing with a little almond butter or hand feeding formula), wondering your thoughts:
M - Harrison's enzymes
T - Harrison's enzymes
W - Probiotics
T - Harrison's enzymes
F - Harrison's enzymes
S - Probiotics
S - Harrison's enzymes

Any reason why you can't do the enzymes and the probiotics on the same day? Olive gets avian probiotics twice a day, and my vet said I could add the harrison's enzymes to that if I wanted. If she's having a digestive issue, I think making sure she gets both with meals would be helpful.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Any reason why you can't do the enzymes and the probiotics on the same day? Olive gets avian probiotics twice a day, and my vet said I could add the harrison's enzymes to that if I wanted. If she's having a digestive issue, I think making sure she gets both with meals would be helpful.

Hank who is on antibiotics right now, but always has issues maintaining his weight gets Prozyme ( a combination of enzymes and probiotics recommended by my vet) every day 2 x per day with his handfeedings. I asked my vet about overdosing and he said that would be very, very difficult and impossible with the amounts I give him (about 1/4 teaspoon each meal). The enzymes should help digest the nuts.

@Katkami - I see you said that you are feeding acorns in your nut mix. That just may be your problem (if they really are acorns). Let me go do some research on acorns and I'll be back.

 

[Hankmacaw]

NO ACORNS - I didn't have to go far. This thread was started in Nov. 2010 on AA and there are several authoritative references given that say NO ACORNS.
http://forums.avianavenue.com/feathered-food-court/35487-acorns-safe.html

Only remaining question regarding the "acorns" is are they acorns or FILBERTS? Filberts are fine.

 

[katkami]

Sorry, they're not acorns, they're hazelnuts. I think they look similar so I mix it up.

Glad to hear I don't have to worry about an overdose, I'll start feeding her both!

 

[Hankmacaw]

Glad they weren't acorns, but now the search continues. Is there any possibility that she could have eaten someting like the plastic wiffle ball that Jasper ate a few years ago that impacted in her crop? She was just fine after 5 weeks of meds and $1,000.

 

[katkami]

Lol I'm already up to $1000 but I only hope it's something that simple. I'll probably call the vet tomorrow to follow up on some of the things discussed here and see if they've heard anything more about her xrays.

 

[Blu]

Lol I'm already up to $1000 but I only hope it's something that simple. I'll probably call the vet tomorrow to follow up on some of the things discussed here and see if they've heard anything more about her xrays.

We just had a B&G pass away couple weeks ago at only 12 weeks, my user name here on th 4m is is name Blu, it's a very nasty nasty disease and hope one day they find a cure.
Our baby started to throw up in the beginning and after 2K of medical bills he gave in and we are so happy as a family to know he is in a better place.
From what I've read here and from what I learned from PDD blu had is I never closed our thoughts that it my or may not b PDD.
After blu's autopsy we where able to see for a fact it was PDD and our vet has come across a test that can be given that helps show a more positive result for PDD and I don't know if if it can be used post pardom.
I will try and find out from my vet the name of the test and share.
I do know and again this my not be PDD but from what I was told is undigested food is one of the symptoms PDD does then it moves to other symptomes.
I've learned to keep all ideas on the table and never rule out till test prove other wise.
Knowing and seeing this PDD first hand and reading here I feel strongly that it's not PDD.

 

[Macawnutz]

We just had a B&G pass away couple weeks ago at only 12 weeks, my user name here on th 4m is is name Blu, it's a very nasty nasty disease and hope one day they find a cure.
Our baby started to throw up in the beginning and after 2K of medical bills he gave in and we are so happy as a family to know he is in a better place.
From what I've read here and from what I learned from PDD blu had is I never closed our thoughts that it my or may not b PDD.
After blu's autopsy we where able to see for a fact it was PDD and our vet has come across a test that can be given that helps show a more positive result for PDD and I don't know if if it can be used post pardom.
I will try and find out from my vet the name of the test and share.
I do know and again this my not be PDD but from what I was told is undigested food is one of the symptoms PDD does then it moves to other symptomes.
I've learned to keep all ideas on the table and never rule out till test prove other wise.
Knowing and seeing this PDD first hand and reading here I feel strongly that it's not PDD.

The test your vet performed was for ABV and IMO does not mean your bird has PDD although vets will sometimes make you feel it is the only answer.

 

[Bokkapooh]

After a bird passes away, they can do many biopsies, which will show if a bird died from PDD or not. I think Bret was talking about the tests they do when your bird passes away.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Not too long ago Kaytee had a formula recall. The formula was recalled due to improper amounts of Vit D added to it. We have a member here who's baby blue and gold macaw almost died from it and now, is still alive, but has serious renal(kidney) problems. Many babies died from Kaytee due to the formula killing their kidneys.

 

[Macawnutz]

After a bird passes away, they can do many biopsies, which will show if a bird died from PDD or not. I think Bret was talking about the tests they do when your bird passes away.

I reread... your right... it is early and I worked a double yesterday!

 

[katkami]

Update:

She's been on pellets and fruits/veggies for the past couple days and is maintaining her weight. Her droppings look better, but that's just because we're masking the problem by not feeding her the nuts/seeds I'm sure.

From the doctor:

* Xray second opinion came back that there isn't evidence of PDD, but that we can't rule it out and they recommended the barium test as a next step. This could show us if there's a foreign body (although there wasn't evidence of one in the xray) or any mass lesions, in addition to proventiculus issues.
* Fatty Liver Disease unlikely b/c she did have a chem panel and her liver looked fine
* AGY she said she hasn't seen this in a macaw. Plus Tiki hasn't been regurgitating or vomiting and we didn't see it in the gram stain that was done. She isn't ruling it out necessarily though.
* Pancreatitus - Her blood profile looked fine which included electrophoresis and that was normal. Plus she isn't having the textbook puffy poop.
* Avian TB is a possibility, also difficult to diagnose.

She thinks that with any of the possibilities it's likely that she'd be losing weight and her weight has been stable for a few weeks now. I think I'm going to monitor her (weighing daily) and pass on the barium test at this time because of the anesthesia risks. She also said I could continue to run ABV tests from home by mailing fecals to the Schubat Center at TX Univ. Not sure how I feel about that though...

 

[Blu]

Update:

She's been on pellets and fruits/veggies for the past couple days and is maintaining her weight. Her droppings look better, but that's just because we're masking the problem by not feeding her the nuts/seeds I'm sure.

From the doctor:

* Xray second opinion came back that there isn't evidence of PDD, but that we can't rule it out and they recommended the barium test as a next step. This could show us if there's a foreign body (although there wasn't evidence of one in the xray) or any mass lesions, in addition to proventiculus issues.
* Fatty Liver Disease unlikely b/c she did have a chem panel and her liver looked fine
* AGY she said she hasn't seen this in a macaw. Plus Tiki hasn't been regurgitating or vomiting and we didn't see it in the gram stain that was done. She isn't ruling it out necessarily though.
* Pancreatitus - Her blood profile looked fine which included electrophoresis and that was normal. Plus she isn't having the textbook puffy poop.
* Avian TB is a possibility, also difficult to diagnose.

She thinks that with any of the possibilities it's likely that she'd be losing weight and her weight has been stable for a few weeks now. I think I'm going to monitor her (weighing daily) and pass on the barium test at this time because of the anesthesia risks. She also said I could continue to run ABV tests from home by mailing fecals to the Schubat Center at TX Univ. Not sure how I feel about that though...

I do know their is many diffrent types of PDD strands, and for what Ive learned Im going to suggest celebrix which is used to treat the macaws that have PDD and see if she improves, if she does not then stop giving celebrix and you will then know its not PDD.
I just dont know if celebrix has any side effects, something you can check with the vet.

We now know blu was hit with the nasty strain of PDD and we would never be happy allowing blu to live on celebrix knowing the PDD was still killing him slowly, and not only that PDD even on celebrix can cause blindness and parrots only living half the life span as normal not to mention you can never bring another parrot in.
I still dont think its PDD but you never know.