The Fine Line With Birds....sorry long....

[BraveheartDogs]

In talking to people and posting about Merlin, the spectacled amazon that I am fostering to adopt, I got to thinking about what I consider to be a very fine line in dealing with birds.

I train professionally so I read alot about behavior modification and training. In reading and researching behavior modification in birds there seems to be a contradiction in certain things, which may actually be part of where the art of training comes in.

I am a positive reinforcement trainer so I don't use force. I try to teach the animal to want to do what I am wanting to teach. So, when I read that you should never make a bird do something it is doesn't want to do, this makes sense and comes very naturally to me. However, you will also read that you have to be assertive and not react to being bitten. In my mind (and please, I don't mean to offend or insult anyone who has been bitten), but in my mind, if I get bitten, I have gone too far, missed some other piece of important body language and am therefore responsible for my behavior in pushing the animal to bite. On the other hand, I do believe that some birds, many birds may find a reaction to a bite reinforcing if not the actual reinforcement of the bite working to make you back off. We know that aggression can be learned, so we could be teaching the animal to bite.....

My question, to those of you who work with parrots regularly. Where do you draw that fine line in the sand where you choose to either back off because for whatever the reason the bird doesn't want "to" (whatever "to" may be at the moment, stepping on, getting into his cage, whatever) or push a bit and insist?

My GCC sometimes doesn't want to go back into her cage. She may bite when I go to ask her to hop off onto her ladder on her cage. So, I have worked on asking her to step up and then off (then reinforcing with food), step up, then off (reinforcing with food) to strengthen the reliability of the behavior to step up and hop off. I do not feel that asking her to step off back into her cage is unreasonable and sometimes I need her to, so I insist.

The second day Merlin was here and the first time I took him out of his cage, I put my hand in there and he opened his beak and I say "come on, step up please" and kept my hand there and he did. Did I push him? He seemed happy and relaxed and thrilled to be out, once out.

I am excited to hear responses as I think that this is an important thing to discuss.

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

I think it depends on the person and the bird
for example I lightly tap Percy to get his attention but would never do it with Little General
I treat each bird as an unique creature and believe in positive reinforcement
and do things for each bird differently depending on their situation if that makes sense this should be a good thread

 

[TikiBird]

This is a good thread I can't wait to hear responses, me and my boyfriend had a discussion like this not too long ago and didn't really come up with good answers.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I think it depends on the person and the bird
for example I lightly tap Percy to get his attention but would never do it with Little General
I treat each bird as an unique creature and believe in positive reinforcement
and do things for each bird differently depending on their situation if that makes sense this should be a good thread

Yes, it makes sense but to dig a little deeper, what causes you to make the decision you do to tap Percy but not Little General?

 

[saroj12]

I keep trying to shape behavior by degrees. Chickie was not comfortable being cuddled as a baby....now I can hold her any way I want...
I had to condition her gradually, but left to her own devices she would not have turned out this way....

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I keep trying to shape behavior by degrees. Chickie was not comfortable being cuddled as a baby....now I can hold her any way I want...
I had to condition her gradually, but left to her own devices she would not have turned out this way....

Saroj,

I LOVE shaping and have trained most behaviors that way too. That's impressive that you can do all that stuff to her now, you must have worked hard

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

I can see Percy's attention wander by what he is doing and what his eyes are on I only handle him when he demonstrates a desire to do so but he has a very short attention spand an since he is bonded to me as a mate I do it with a tender reminder

Little General however has to be watched like a hawk to keep from being bit even on his good days he does not know his own strength it would not help me to get his attention that way since I have his attention weather or not I want it if that makes sense

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I can see Percy's attention wander by what he is doing and what his eyes are on I only handle him when he demonstrates a desire to do so but he has a very short attention spand an since he is bonded to me as a mate I do it with a tender reminder

Little General however has to be watched like a hawk to keep from being bit even on his good days he does not know his own strength it would not help me to get his attention that way since I have his attention weather or not I want it if that makes sense

Thanks. I think it so helpful to hear why people make the decisions they do

 

[Greycloud]

Vicki your first post is excellent. Yes, it is true, we teach our birds to bite. By pushinh that one little inch to far they bite therefore learning that this gets the result they want by keeping you away. I have learned from many and in all my years of dealing with birds that the decision has to be theirs. Your bird would not have stepped up if he didn't want to. He obviously trusts you and feels comfortable with your behavior. There are times when we have to insist a bird follow a command, such as emergencies. By working with the bird and biuling that trust and bond hopefully when asked what we expect from them they react in a positive behavior.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Vicki your first post is excellent. Yes, it is true, we teach our birds to bite. By pushinh that one little inch to far they bite therefore learning that this gets the result they want by keeping you away. I have learned from many and in all my years of dealing with birds that the decision has to be theirs. Your bird would not have stepped up if he didn't want to. He obviously trusts you and feels comfortable with your behavior. There are times when we have to insist a bird follow a command, such as emergencies. By working with the bird and biuling that trust and bond hopefully when asked what we expect from them they react in a positive behavior.

Thank you. I like the idea of the idea needing to be theirs very much. Frankly, if Merlin had insisted I back off, I would have. I don't want him to feel forced or pressured, I want him to feel comfortable and safe

 

[Sharpie]

For me it comes down to determining if they're uncomfortable or nervous about doing the behavior or if they just don't want to do it, even though they understand and are able to do the behavior. A lot of my decisions are based on some pretty subtle body language and context, enough so that it's hard for even me to say why I think, "he's just being stubborn" as opposed to "he's nervous about it."

If they're nervous, then I wouldn't force it unless it was so minor that I knew Jasper would be comfortable once the behavior was done (eg, having him step onto a strange new shower perch he wasn't 100% trusting of, that once he was on, he was fine with as I knew he would be). If he's just being stubborn or doesn't want to do something I know he can do, whether I force the issue depends on the situation. If it's something optional, I'll usually respect his wishes. If it's going back in his cage when I need him to, it's not optional and he will go back in his cage. I'll get a stick or grab his foot and really push him to cooperate. Then he gets a big treat for not biting the crap out of me for forcing the issue, because, even is he didn't *want* to, he DID perform the behavior I needed him to.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

For me it comes down to determining if they're uncomfortable or nervous about doing the behavior or if they just don't want to do it, even though they understand and are able to do the behavior. A lot of my decisions are based on some pretty subtle body language and context, enough so that it's hard for even me to say why I think, "he's just being stubborn" as opposed to "he's nervous about it."

If they're nervous, then I wouldn't force it unless it was so minor that I knew Jasper would be comfortable once the behavior was done (eg, having him step onto a strange new shower perch he wasn't 100% trusting of, that once he was on, he was fine with as I knew he would be). If he's just being stubborn or doesn't want to do something I know he can do, whether I force the issue depends on the situation. If it's something optional, I'll usually respect his wishes. If it's going back in his cage when I need him to, it's not optional and he will go back in his cage. I'll get a stick or grab his foot and really push him to cooperate. Then he gets a big treat for not biting the crap out of me for forcing the issue, because, even is he didn't *want* to, he DID perform the behavior I needed him to.

Yeah, that all makes sense. Like you, I feel strongly that if there is fear or anxiety, I will not push it...... On the other hand, if we do push it (because we think that they just don't want to) we could get bitten. But, I guess this is where you look at the bottom language and determine will the animal do this if I ask or insist....

 

[ilikebirds]

The only bird I have pushed is Ruby, a wagler conure. She was mistreated in her former home. She did not trust hands at all. Everytime I got close to her, she would lunge and be scarey. So after we had her for a while, I started to ask her to step up. She would refuse and growl, and bite. I knew she would bite, and it was my fault. She would bite, and I would persist. She started to step up, still growling, no bitey. My reason to push her was this: having no trust, she had no reason to ever decide to step up or be close. I dont know what happened in her previous home. But I needed her to see that my hands would not hurt her, even if she bit. I hate to chase a bird to towel it just to move it. Much less stressful if they step up and put them somewhere they enjoy to be. After stepping up, I can pet her, she will cuddle a bit, and actually steps up when I ask her. She doesnt bite me for it anymore. Though she still bites out of displaced aggression a lot, dunno if that will ever change. I think by pushing her to step up, she realized hands are not bad after all, and opened a new door to bonding. And so far so good!

 

[Stevo]

From the lessons of NEI -

When you push too far, or do something the bird does not want too, then you are making a withdrawal from the trust account that you have built up between you and the bird. When your account is empty the bird will no longer trust you and is more likely to behave in a negative manner (biting/scared/cage bound/screaming/etc). The amount you can push a bird totally depends on how big your trust account is at the time of the push. A new bird will lose trust with a trainer very quickly if positive reinforcement and shaping is not used. A bird that has been with an owner/trainer for a period of time will simply shrug off the bad and get on with it. So that time that you had to grab your bird for a vet exam or put it back in the cage will not ruin your relationship if there is a high enough level of trust.
The key is to try and identify the body language (easier with a flighted bird - it simply flies away when it doesnt want to do something... lol) so that you can continue to shape towards the behaviour you want without the negative impacts.
There are times when negative reinforcement will be used, and works, in the training environment - the key is to minimise it and to recognise when you are doing it. It's a quicker method to train but does not empower the bird to do what it thinks it wants too....

Hope that's not too much of a ramble.....

 

[Stevo]

The only bird I have pushed is Ruby, a wagler conure. She was mistreated in her former home. She did not trust hands at all. Everytime I got close to her, she would lunge and be scarey. So after we had her for a while, I started to ask her to step up. She would refuse and growl, and bite. I knew she would bite, and it was my fault. She would bite, and I would persist. She started to step up, still growling, no bitey. My reason to push her was this: having no trust, she had no reason to ever decide to step up or be close. I dont know what happened in her previous home. But I needed her to see that my hands would not hurt her, even if she bit. I hate to chase a bird to towel it just to move it. Much less stressful if they step up and put them somewhere they enjoy to be. After stepping up, I can pet her, she will cuddle a bit, and actually steps up when I ask her. She doesnt bite me for it anymore. Though she still bites out of displaced aggression a lot, dunno if that will ever change. I think by pushing her to step up, she realized hands are not bad after all, and opened a new door to bonding. And so far so good!

This is an example of flooding. You have not empowered the bird with choice. I have bolded the above sentance to discuss further - there are many ways to gain trust, you may not have seen another solution but they exist and the building of the trust account is very important. It takes time. How about offering favoured treats over a period of weeks/months to gain trust. Even reducing the morning intake of food to get the belly rumbling to make the bird a bit more keen to take the treat, followed by a large dinner, can help this method along. Patience patience patience. My next question - Why did you feel that this bird, having come from a mistreated home, needed to ever step up or be close to a human - It's not essential for the birds well-being for the bird to do this, but you needed her to? For you? What are you determining the displaced aggression is against? Not knowing the full situation I hesitate to say this but with flooding the bird will do the behaviour often out of fear. Not trust. Not willingly. Is she flighted?

Please dont take offence at this, i'm merely using it as an example, and I'm not trying to have a go at you.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

From the lessons of NEI -

When you push too far, or do something the bird does not want too, then you are making a withdrawal from the trust account that you have built up between you and the bird. When your account is empty the bird will no longer trust you and is more likely to behave in a negative manner (biting/scared/cage bound/screaming/etc). The amount you can push a bird totally depends on how big your trust account is at the time of the push. A new bird will lose trust with a trainer very quickly if positive reinforcement and shaping is not used. A bird that has been with an owner/trainer for a period of time will simply shrug off the bad and get on with it. So that time that you had to grab your bird for a vet exam or put it back in the cage will not ruin your relationship if there is a high enough level of trust.
The key is to try and identify the body language (easier with a flighted bird - it simply flies away when it doesnt want to do something... lol) so that you can continue to shape towards the behaviour you want without the negative impacts.
There are times when negative reinforcement will be used, and works, in the training environment - the key is to minimise it and to recognise when you are doing it. It's a quicker method to train but does not empower the bird to do what it thinks it wants too....

Hope that's not too much of a ramble.....

I love this analogy a lot. I saw Steve Martin lecture earlier this year and he actually used this same one. I forgot about it but am so glad you reminded me. It's a great way to look at it. So, if you follow this guideline you really want to push AT ALL early on as there is not trust built yet.

I am working with another bird I recently adopted, a Linnie who is very fearful of hands. I am doing this with him. Initially, I invited him to step up, he ran away. His previous owners told me he had to be caught to be held. I have had him for maybe two months. I feed him from my hand, which he is fine with. I move him from place to place with a long perch which he has gotten very reliable at stepping onto. Every few days I will offer my finger, I do not push his body or touch him, just offer it. He no longer runs away, but will now gently explore it with his beak, when he is done, I move it away. I feel so good about this progress and I really think that with time he will step up.

 

[MommyBird]

This is a very thoughtful discussion all.

I never want to push to where they want to bite me.
With my rehomed Amazons (who never knew stepup) I would only push it if it were a true emergency like a fire or a bear in the house.

Otherwise, say for stepup, I have alternate plans if they don't accept my first request. (Besides trying again later)
Such as, instead of my arm, they may prefer a stick.
Or I will bribe/lure with a visable treat.
And the one that never fails is a stuffed toy that they want to kill and will go wherever it is.
But it is still their idea to actually DO it.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

This is a very thoughtful discussion all.

I never want to push to where they want to bite me.
With my rehomed Amazons (who never knew stepup) I would only push it if it were a true emergency like a fire or a bear in the house.

Otherwise, say for stepup, I have alternate plans if they don't accept my first request. (Besides trying again later)
Such as, instead of my arm, they may prefer a stick.
Or I will bribe/lure with a visable treat.
And the one that never fails is a stuffed toy that they want to kill and will go wherever it is.
But it is still their idea to actually DO it.

Having an alternate plan and being able to be flexible and think on the fly is super important in training. I love the stick idea and am going to try doing some stick training with Merlin. I am also doing this (but haven't practiced lately and will go back to it since you reminded me) with my GCC Autumn so she is comfortable and knows how to do it when and if I need her to.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

This is an example of flooding.
Please dont take offence at this, i'm merely using it as an example, and I'm not trying to have a go at you.

I agree and I would not push or force a fearful individual. Besides being very frightening for the animal flooding usually causes them to sensitize instead of desensitize also, which makes things worse. A lot of times people think an animal is "calm" or "ok" once they stop resisting but usually they have just given up and shut down.

One of my whole reasons for this thread was wanting to discuss this is because I do not want to flood or push an animal, particularly one that is fearful.

 

[Stevo]

This is a very thoughtful discussion all.

I never want to push to where they want to bite me.
With my rehomed Amazons (who never knew stepup) I would only push it if it were a true emergency like a fire or a bear in the house.

Otherwise, say for stepup, I have alternate plans if they don't accept my first request. (Besides trying again later)
Such as, instead of my arm, they may prefer a stick.
Or I will bribe/lure with a visable treat.
And the one that never fails is a stuffed toy that they want to kill and will go wherever it is.
But it is still their idea to actually DO it.

Lol - My alternate plan (which usually ends up being my primary plan... ) when trying to put Danny to bed at night, off his playstand and out of reach from me, is to waggle my finger at him... He more often than not comes running over to grab it and then I can get him to step up while he's gnawing (gently) on me Either that or I just lift my finger up and he'll be hanging off it either by his beak or feet... lol. He cant help but play