Soooooo tough...

[Atomiklan]

Sigh, why are non hand raised finches soooooo hard to win over? Charlie and Emma have their good and bad days, but most of the time they are still pretty scared of me. I have had them now since September 1st of last year I think? I spend almost every day with them for at least 8-10 hours a day (work from home). They are out of their cage most of the day with me, or they are in the cage with the door open and I sit right next to them (ie they are very relaxed all day and come and go as they please). I don't make any loud noises or make any sudden or scary movements. I live by myself too so my house is VERY quiet all day. If any music is playing, its usually really quiet relaxing music. They're not scared scared of me, but I would have figured by now with as much time as we spend together, they would trust me a little more than they do. I think I have talked about this in the past on here. I feel I have hit the Finch wall (so to speak) that everyone talks about. Any suggestions on some next steps to improve trust?

Here they are taking a snooze

 

[JLcribber]

It's because you're human Andrew. They have no need or desire of you because they have each other. They "know" you are not like them.

 

[Atomiklan]

That's actually a REALLY good point that I completely forgot about! They are paired off and are also happy together being birds and you're right... Not a bird here

I probably would have a much easier time with a single finch, but that of course would be cruel. Not suggesting ANYTHING here, just another hypothetical lol. ie had I went with a single finch, would have maybe had a closer bond one on one. Was smart enough and did enough research before hand to know to get at least two. Surprised I forgot about this.

With all this in mind though (obviously cant change this now, nor would I want to lol), going forward does anyone have any tips to try to help? Would love to continue to work on our bond together.

 

[JLcribber]

I would say you’re at the finch wall. They ain’t parrots.

 

[WallyLoopey]

I would say that finches are more ‘display animals’. That doesn’t mean they don’t have their own unique personalities though.

If you want something more tame, maybe try a cockatiel. It’s a little bigger but still not as difficult as a larger bird.

Of course don’t jump right into it, research first.

@finchly has mentioned that canaries can be hand tamed and she has finches as well as canaries. Maybe she can give you some insight.

 

[Atomiklan]

I do appreciate the reply, but I respectfully disagree. I don't feel any birds are display birds, finches just require additional and probably slightly different effort. Also, thanks, but I'm not interested in a cockatiel. Otherwise I would have gotten a cockatiel . I think you may be looking at my question from the wrong perspective and perhaps that's my fault. I'm not going the route of, just find a different bird that meets my expectations. I knew what I was getting into to long before I ever decided to get finches. Did probably a years worth of research too before ever getting birds. I love my finches and am approaching this problem more from the perspective of what can I do differently to break the usual stereotype.

Also, I have a very snuggly eckkie (so no cockatiel necessary lol).

Thanks for the input!

I look forward to hearing back from @finchly too. We have talked extensively in the past about my pair of finches.

 

[finchly]

Late to the party! What else is new!

My husband and I do not consider finches display animals. We also do not consider them 'beneath' parrots. It's just that parrot people look at the big picture and finch people catch the little nuances (pun intended). Like if Ernie Pionus doesn't like what I'm doing, I'll wear a scar. Whereas if a finch doesn't like what I'm doing, I have to be paying attention to recognize the discord. Well I have a couple that bite me. But in general that's not how they act.

I have both....hey @Atomiklan you do too. Both parrots and finches. I think the finches are every bit as intelligent and curious, don't you?

Anyway I am wandering. The question is: Any suggestions on some next steps to improve trust?

I assume by trust you mean you want them to land on you or perch on your finger. Have you read @Monica's post about taming her budgies? I think it was budgies. She used millet. Do you wear food on your shoulder? I'm serious. If they knew you always had a stick of millet behind your ear, they'd come to you. Do they step up from inside the cage?

Tell us more about what they do and what you want them to do.

Have you tried target training? That's here (on AA) in the training section. I have varying degrees of success but I am not very consistent.

One thing that seems to work for most of mine is that I use my voice and hands together to say what I want but I don't touch them. So I say go back in your cage and hold my hand up and they go. Then I teach them to go on this perch on the training table, which I suspect they're seeing other birds go to the perch, but the majority of mine will go there when I tap it with my finger and say "perch." Then you can extend that to other perches around the room.

Since you've issued the challenge, I'll start working with one of mine --again-- and see how far we can go. I think if you watch the canary training videos, the same techniques would apply to finches.

 

[Atomiklan]

C&E are fickle... At first I worked A LOT with them to build the trust we have today. I did all the normal processes. Hand in the cage for extended periods. Offered them millet. Yada yada. If you watch some of my very first YouTube videos, you will see some of that initial training process which I guess I will just embed here to save you the trouble.

This was I believe their first day home.

Lots of steps not recorded between the first video above and this one below. Had not planned on making a log of my progression. At this stage they were trusting enough to come close, but not touch my hand. To get to this point required weeks of me keeping my arm in the cage for hours on end while I worked.

Then it got to the point where they trusted me to perch and eat but were still VERY skittish.

They got lots of exercise and were comfortable flying around me eventually. Even occasionally landing on me.

Charlie then got into a nest building routine with me for awhile where he would come to me and land anywhere I had nesting material for him. Shoulders, hands, head, etc.

Moved them into their new permanent home which you can see in this video. After a lot of work, he would finally land on my open palm hand, but again only for nesting material.

For a little time afterwards, they would occasionally land on my shoulder or head. They would switch off every few weeks it seemed being the brave one. ie one week Charlie would be fearless, then Emma. Slowly over time though this work I did with them has eroded. They still trust me for the most part, but only as a utility to them haha. This is the finch wall I speak of. I suspect that when C&E get in a nesting mood again (which is kinda starting, but wont go anywhere right now), Charlie will get more adventurous again and will start coming to me for nesting material if I offer it. He starting exhibiting this behavior again this morning. I need to do something though to try to build on the relationship outside those needs though. I need to figure out a method to hand tame again that is independent of mating season so to speak. That is I think the flaw potentially in my previous progress. I am still of the opinion that every interaction we have that is positive continues to build trust, but I think I need to focus more on other types of interactions.

To answer specific questions now...

I think the finches are every bit as intelligent and curious, don't you?

YES! I agree entirely with this, and I think more people need to live with both before they jump to conclusions. C&E both have their own individual personalities, their likes and dislikes, behaviors, and show a lot of the same tendencies as parrots. They just show them in a different way.

Do you wear food on your shoulder?

Nope but I think this is gonna be a good next step. Messy step, but next step... The ability of finches to spread millet casings never ceases to amaze me...

Do they step up from inside the cage?

No, I have never achieved a successful step up except for maybe once a long time ago when Emma got lost in the big scary living room. That was probably a step up out of desperation though. For all intensive purposes, lets go with no, never. They are scared of my hand most of the time inside the cage. They recognize certain acts like replacing food and water trays and will not panic even if my hand is close, but random time hand in cage usually means lets go to other side.

Have you tried target training?

Dont feel like I am at the point where target training could be effective. Probably still too unpredictable when they are going to be scared vs not scared.

Ultimate goal? Like I have said in our previous conversations, if I got to this point, my life would be complete

and this

Yes, I recognize that in both of those videos, not only are the subject birds babies, but almost certainly hand raised which of course makes a huge difference and contributes to my desire in the future to hand raise C&E's kids when I decide to expand my flock, but I still want to try hard to break the stereotype that non hand raised finches can't become tame.

The default wisdom here of course is "patience"...

 

[TikiMyn]

Great progress! I really love the way the fly, I don’t see a lot of finches, and the ones I do see are in stores sitting in the back of a cage cause they are scared. I never knew they flew like that! Gorgeous

 

[Monica]

Yes, it was with budgies!


An Experiment with Budgies | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum


Which unintentionally lead to cockatiels!

"Self-Tamed" Cockatiels | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum


And if I had chosen to work on it, also a wild caught african ringneck.



My goal wasn't to tame them, per-say, so I didn't attempt to take it further than that, however, saying that, two of the tiels were actually rather friendly birds when away from the flock.

 

[Atomiklan]

Next test beginning! The next time you hear from me, I will probably be completely covered in millet...

 

[finchly]

Next test beginning! The next time you hear from me, I will probably be completely covered in millet...

And so will your floor... your hair.....etc etc.

Was writing to you when that ^^ came in:

Andrew,
My favorite video of yours is still the one where you're holding different bits of paper and he comes to get them from you. They can still play with straw, hay, or paper even if they aren't nest-building.

I think your progress is WOW! :super: So you're thinking they grew up and left the 'nest' once they started nesting. I may be wrong but I thought they kind of quit on you when Lada came into the picture?

In the 2nd video you shared of someone else's zebra finches - yes the one on the mouse is a baby, and you can do anything with babies. But the one on his keyboard is an adult and it seems tame. And other people have had tame finches........so the question is where to go from here?

I think "step up" was an incorrect phrase on my part. Finches are not going to 'step up' as much as just 'fly to me'. We need the bird to come willingly to your hand or shoulder. You had the millet in a bowl and they were on your finger. Can you put it in the palm of your hand and they will get on your finger?

Also try training them hungry. I don't mean all night or anything but what about removing the food 30 min before you plan to train, so that they're eager to go after the millet.

Gotta go think more on this.

 

[Atomiklan]

Can you put it in the palm of your hand and they will get on your finger?

Probably not anymore. At one point yes. After the millet in the bowl video would have been another undocumented step of them just eating millet out of my hand. Like I said, I was never officially documenting my progress so I unfortunately don't have videos of all the incremental steps.

removing the food 30 min before you plan to train

Yeah I agree. I have done this in the past with good results. In fact I did it above just now with the millet. Need to clean cage today so I removed all bowls except for a water change. Unfortunately they saw the incoming fresh water and of course jumped right in all excitedly. So now I look silly with millet on my shoulder while they dry off, preen, and probably ultimately take a nap haha. Will have to wait awhile until they wake up and come out exploring again. Guessing once they wake up they'll come for the millet.

So you're thinking they grew up and left the 'nest' once they started nesting. I may be wrong but I thought they kind of quit on you when Lada came into the picture?

You might have to restate this question. Not sure I understand you, but here goes. Are you asking if I believe that C&E grew up and once they started nesting, they lost interest in me? Or are you saying you thought the erosion of are progress was not because of them nesting, but instead on account of Lada's arrival? Assuming that is indeed what you're asking, I will try to answer. I don't believe the erosion of my progress was due to their nesting. In fact quite the contrary. I got the closest ever to Charlie as a result of his nesting behavior. I think maybe where the confusion came in was how I worded my previous post. I felt that the positive interactions I had with Charlie was entirely during and as a result of his nest building process. I was instrumental in helping him build the nest and he saw that. I must have given him hundreds of pieces of cotton string (yes I know... bad) and or paper strips. I was simply commenting that during these positive interactions with Charlie, "I served a sole purpose". "Providing nesting material". Once the nest was complete and ultimately once I removed the nest entirely after having all those nesting behavior problems with C&E, Charlie no longer had any reason to continue those interactions with me. He wasn't building nests anymore. So essentially I somewhat shot myself in the foot. However... I went on to say, that even though I served no purpose to Charlie afterwards (now that he wasn't building nests), that time spent was still positive interaction which built trust. I then concluded that I need to repeat that same training, but with something independent of nesting related behavior.

Now with respect to the second part of the question, yes I think when Lada arrived, that's when the trust and relationship started to erode a little bit. Not because the finches were necessarily upset, but because I was suddenly having to learn a TON about keeping Lada on the fly. I had to split my time between the finches and Lada and at first I was having to work a LOT with Lada to get her settled and trusting of me and her new foster home. Now that Lada is pretty much settled in and I understand her moods, needs, etc. everything is essentially back to normal. Maybe not normal, but I feel I have reached a state of homeostasis. So now I need to refocus my time with making positive (but generic) interactions and training with the finches.

 

[Atomiklan]

Thank you @Monica read over your old posts and they almost mirror exactly most of the initial method and experience I had with C&E during first training. I think maybe the two key things I need to do is just keep encouraging interaction (millet on shoulder, in hand etc) and TIME. I need to give it a year I think. I mean at this point I am still only going on 5-6 months. Maybe I just need more time with them. If I still feel like I am at a wall in 6 months then perhaps will need to revisit training method again.

 

[Atomiklan]

Aww, first time I have ever seen them sit together on the door perch. Had to take it from a distance so sorry about quality. I love including lots of pictures in these posts. Makes them more enjoyable to read in my opinion.

 

[TikiMyn]

Ahw they are so adorable! I love AA so much, I love to learn about other bird species

 

[Monica]

I actually enjoy the chirps and tweets of finches and wouldn't mind having some myself. If I did, I'd probably be doing the same as you! I enjoy watching birds flying around and being, well, birds! Much easier to watch little birds flying around than a larger parrot in a small place! And my largest, Charlie, my mitred, only wants to fly if he has to fly to me! Otherwise, there really isn't much interest in flying around... I did work with him before on flying, but it's been a long while now. Something I want to work with him again since he can be such a perch potato!


When I was feeding the birds by hand, I was doing it nearly every day. Afterwards, I thought, if I could do this without even trying to tame my birds, and I'm working with not one, not two, not even three birds, but several birds - and all adults *AND* all flighted, what could someone do if they actually put in the effort? If they wanted to take it further than that? What other interactions could they learn to enjoy with you that don't necessarily involve food? The possibilities can be endless! And it would have course depend on each individual person and what they are willing to put in with their birds!

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

Finch level birds are actually very low on the intelligence scale of birds. There is little room in those little minds except for instincts, their mate and their foraging. As long as they have company, food and a place to reproduce, they are happy birds and humans are predators and have no place in their lives except as the food and water deliverer.

I adore canaries, but I know they are "listen and look" pets, not hands on.