• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Somewhat Judgemental about Breeding

BreezyTiel

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/11/20
Messages
85
Location
Michigan, United States
Real Name
Erica
As @Matto has stated in the past, I feel like it's a bit of a problem that some people here come across as judgemental to others who wish to breed their birds. This community is really great overall, but I feel like this is the one negative that puts me off. I've had really nice people give helpful advice, and then I've had some not so nice people try to deter me from breeding altogether. I left last time for this very reason.

If we tried to educate people about how to breed properly, rather than discourage completely, I think this community would be even better.

Just a thought.
 
Last edited:

Khizz

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
3/31/19
Messages
1,902
Location
Switzerland (originally from UK)
I'm in a bit of two minds about this issue.

On the one hand, I do feel that some individual people should be discouraged (when it's clear they haven't thought it through, or don't have access to an avian vet). Especially if somebody is planning a large scale breeding operation in the pursuit of profit. Then there are those who just underestimate how much work it is, then get on the defensive when we inform them its not so simple as putting in a nest box and letting the birds do the work.

However, often I find people can be extremely dismissive and impolite without even knowing the whole story. For example, where I live, a bird will very rarely appear in a rescue, especially large ones like a macaw. Birds are not a popular pet here, so if you want one you go to the pet shop or an individual who just lets their birds breed, like I did to get my two.

Additionally, by adopting an almost aggressive attitude, I imagine many people are not discouraged from breeding, but simply discouraged from using sites like this. They'll go ahead and breed without the wealth of knowledge members here can provide, which is worse.

I do hope this can open up a constructive discussion. I tried something similar before and it was pretty much shut down instantly.
 

Mizzely

Lil Monsters Bird Toys
Super Moderator
Vendor
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
8/9/11
Messages
27,076
Location
Northern Mitten Michigan
Real Name
Shawna
The one thing about this community is no matter what the subject, you'll find passionate discussion. Some people are more abrasive than others, but this is true regardless of where you go in life. We have a high number of "adopt don't shop" minded people here so unfortunately the conversation regarding breeding does get a bit heated. Additionally, we have a high number of United States members where thousands of birds are abandoned every year.

If you ever feel that a comment crosses the line, you can press the "report" button to call in a moderator. We will discuss whether or not we need to intervene. We don't censor people here, though, so unless they are violating the community guidelines, we're not going to edit or remove posts.
 

Lincee

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
8/13/15
Messages
1,869
Location
Arnhem, Netherlands
Real Name
Jan
I happen to have a more doomed opinion about the whole breeding part.

i feel that my generation will live to see many birds go extinct in the wild. And as such, breeding will be the only way to keep them from total annihilation :(

but i do agree that breeding is not to be taken lightly. And i also agree that it should not be about building a breeding business for the money. So i can understand the people who favor adopting rather then breeding.

BUT, i also share your opinion. We woud be far better off if we all pulled together and helped those who seriously wish to breed birds. That will benefit the breeder, and ultimatly the birds as well.
 

BreezyTiel

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/11/20
Messages
85
Location
Michigan, United States
Real Name
Erica
Additionally, by adopting an almost aggressive attitude, I imagine many people are not discouraged from breeding, but simply discouraged from using sites like this. They'll go ahead and breed without the wealth of knowledge members here can provide, which is worse.

I do hope this can open up a constructive discussion. I tried something similar before and it was pretty much shut down instantly.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo! Gold star for you :) of course breeding is not be taken lightly, that's why it's necessary to educate perspective breeders in a positive manner. Having a non-judgemental space to discuss breeding can be a real benefit.

My own birds are a bonded pair that had their first clutch last year, but the eggs were duds. I'm hoping to have success the next time I put them together.

Thanks for all of your replies guys, & I will be stalking this thread to see how the discussion evolves. haha
 

JLcribber

@cockatoojohn
Vendor
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Shutterbugs' Best
Avenue Concierge
Joined
10/16/09
Messages
21,279
Location
Alberta, Canada
Real Name
John
As @Matto has stated in the past, I feel like it's a bit of a problem that some people here come across as judgemental to others who wish to breed their birds. This community is really great overall, but I feel like this is the one negative that puts me off. I've had really nice people give helpful advice, and then I've had some not so nice people try to deter me from breeding altogether. I left last time for this very reason.

If we tried to educate people about how to breed properly, rather than discourage completely, I think this community would be even better.

Just a thought.
The best breeding advice is to stop doing it for the animals sake. It only done out of human vanity and self indulgence. I will always be the first and loudest voice on this forum where this topic is concerned.

Adopt. Don't shop.
 

cosmolove

Biking along the boulevard
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Joined
7/19/11
Messages
7,690
Location
Dayton, OH
Real Name
Erica (:
This right here is EXACTLY the only reason I do not like this forum. I love this forum, always have and always will but this piece is my one negative about it. There are ways to discuss the importance of really thinking through breeding before you do it versus attack mode on a judgmental soap box. In reality that mentality only hurts the avian community.

Breeding is going to happen no matter what tantrums people on this forum throw. Period. So providing a place to get information to do it in the most ethical way possible you'd think is a good thing. Encouraging good breeding practices and if you're going to purchase a baby bird to encourage finding an ethical breeder to do it the right way should be a value for anyone who values these birds. I am a VERY strong believer (for all animals) that adopting or shopping is really a personal decision and you have to do what is best for your family. With that being said I am also a VERY strong believer in only supporting ethical breeders if that is the route someone decides to take.

It is not at all uncommon for ethical breeders of all animals to actually take BETTER care than many of the average pet owners. Allowing a space for breeders to be educated and provide the most ethical practices will also flow into the new owners taking better care of their animals as they'll learn from the breeder and the breeder then may recommend coming to a forum such as this one. A breeder isn't likely to recommend a forum for new owners if the breeder got strung out and stones threw at them.

I will be the first to say publicly what MANY people think already. People who are that close-minded and refuse to help anyone that disagrees are the problem.

I just rescued two English Budgies that were being dumped because they wouldn't breed and they didn't want the hassle of moving with them. It would have been amazing to see how far they could have come if they had a forum like this to help them learn how to properly care for them. It would have been nice if the breeder they got them from had this forum to come to to learn how to ethically breed and give information to their new owners. Instead, members of this forum would rather go into attack mode because the bad "B" word came up, oh no the horror encouraging ethical BREEDING if its going to be done.

*With all that said, no I do not think all people should breed nor do all birds make a good candidate for breeding.*
 

Mizzely

Lil Monsters Bird Toys
Super Moderator
Vendor
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
8/9/11
Messages
27,076
Location
Northern Mitten Michigan
Real Name
Shawna
There is also a difference between "judgemental" and "not getting told what you want to hear". If someone is trying to breed and their bird is too young, not on a proper diet for breeding, doesn't have a vet lined up, etc, then members usually are quick to call the poster out about that - and rightly so.

Asking for advice and then getting upset when it's given is frustrating for those that donate their time to provide it. It's one of the reasons they may appear salty - you can only say the same things and be ignored so many times over the years before you get jaded.
 

tka

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
4/4/17
Messages
2,045
Location
London, UK
A lot of people have seen the other side of people breeding because they want to. They've adopted birds and seen how many there were in rescues, or they've volunteered at or run rescues themselves. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see how many people don't think about the consequences of breeding and end up with too many birds, are breeding birds hoping to make money and not carefully vetting new owners, are breeding from birds that are aggressive or have health problems, or don't know what they're getting into and end up with problems that they don't know how to solve. Things like egg-binding, the parents attacking or abandoning their chicks, chicks with slow crop or crop burns, chicks with splayed legs, chicks that struggle to wean. There is a LOT that can go wrong when breeding birds and I don't think enough people are aware of that.

I had rats for many years, and while I didn't show or breed, I was pretty deep into the rat fancy world. The thing about rats is that they breed incredibly quickly and often come in startlingly attractive colours, but they also have a lot of health problems and short life expectancy. Lots of people get a cute rat and want to breed from it without knowing anything about where that rat has come from, health or hormone issues in their line, lifespan, anything really. I learnt from breeders who sought to improve their line in terms of lifespan and temperament, with colour and patterns third in their list of priorities. They are meticulous about record-keeping and have seen real improvements. As a result, it was rather a shock to me when I got interested in parrots and found that, if a parrot was deemed too aggressive for a pet home, a good number of people would rehome it to a breeding programme!

I did get Leia from a breeder. Her species is very uncommon in the UK, and as a result very rarely comes up in rescues. We have much fewer parrots and parrot rescues in the UK compared to the US, and the birds that come up in rescue tend to be Greys, cockatoos and amazons, which as a novice I felt totally ill-equipped for. I talked to her breeder a lot about his breeding and husbandry practices - about how he selects the birds he wants to breed from to how he keeps records to how he co-parents the chicks. I wanted my bird to know that she's a bird first and foremost, and I sought out a breeder who didn't handrear chicks. I wanted to ensure that our values aligned and happily, they do.

I think it is possible to breed birds ethically but many people do not. These are some things I would ask anyone who is breeding parrots, or plans to breed.

I would want to see:
  • a clear set of goals from a breeder: what are they breeding for? why are they breeding? what is the overall aim?
  • some kind of systematic approach, not just "oh these birds are pretty, they should have babies"
  • a rigorous approach to choosing birds for a breeding programme.
  • commitment to breeding for physical and mental health: breeding birds that are resilient enough to cope with the stresses of captive life.
  • impeccable husbandry: environment, diet, enrichment, vet care, mentorship.
  • commitment to learning: attending talks, being part of a breeding network (to swap birds and keep gene pools fresh), learning about avian health and genetics, keeping up with best practices as they emerge.
If someone cannot commit to doing these as a minimum then no, I don't think they have any business breeding.
 

Teckechick

Ask me for a photo of my bird, I have to post one!
Celebirdy of the Month
Avenue Concierge
Joined
9/5/16
Messages
2,340
Location
Illinois
Real Name
Dawn
I think this subject can get heated with any animal. As others have said in the US we have so many animals in shelters needing homes. Stores just keep selling and breeders just keep breeding no matter the species. It is so sad to see all of the discarded pets that need homes here. Several of the stores in my area have collection jars on the counters now to help support the no kill shelters in the area as they are busting at the seems with unwanted animals .

This is a huge problem in our country as we are a completely all about me instant gratification people. I don't think we make anyone take any kind of classes or take any certifications to breed for profit and some people just don't have the skills/money/housing needed to provide the proper care.
 

Khizz

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
3/31/19
Messages
1,902
Location
Switzerland (originally from UK)
Just as an aside, there have been some interesting contributions on this thread to both sides (regardless of whether you agree or not!).

Admittedly, I also wonder whether my position on the matter would change if I were based in the US. I understand that the situation with rescues is dire, and breeding does play a huge role there.

I understand that people here get fed up with poor breeding practices and attitudes, and I can see why (I've seen many a thread where I thought "jeez how could they think breeding was a good idea?!"). Its just worth considering that sometimes more harm is done by shouting them down straight out the gate. I would also be rather taken aback if I asked what I thought was a normal question then got a hostile response.

Of course, then you get those folks who don't listen either way and just throw a tantrum, then I vote that it's a free for all :laughin:
 

Khizz

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Joined
3/31/19
Messages
1,902
Location
Switzerland (originally from UK)
Of course, then you get those folks who don't listen either way and just throw a tantrum, then I vote that it's a free for all :laughin:
Case in point: I encountered one fellow elsewhere (not here) who wanted to know what would happen after their tiels have mated. I politely informed him that IF there are any eggs, they can just be swapped round with fakes. On the spot he decided he wants them to have babies. He proceeded to get really upset and stroppy when everyone reminded him that if he doesn't know what happens when birds mate he should hold off on breeding them... o_O
 

cosmolove

Biking along the boulevard
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Joined
7/19/11
Messages
7,690
Location
Dayton, OH
Real Name
Erica (:
There is also a difference between "judgemental" and "not getting told what you want to hear". If someone is trying to breed and their bird is too young, not on a proper diet for breeding, doesn't have a vet lined up, etc, then members usually are quick to call the poster out about that - and rightly so.

Asking for advice and then getting upset when it's given is frustrating for those that donate their time to provide it. It's one of the reasons they may appear salty - you can only say the same things and be ignored so many times over the years before you get jaded.
I completely agree with this! My point was more directed to those that brag that their goal is to run anyone off who breeds. Regardless of ethics or anything like that. I personally find learning about the good, bad, and ugly vital to making an informed decision. That information won't be received at all if the person gets chased off the forum right away because they used the "breeder" word :p
 

Matto

Jogging around the block
Vendor
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
9/24/17
Messages
812
Location
Baltimore
Real Name
Matt
I'm starting to think that we should make it like the Bird Emergency forum, where anyone can start a thread and ask questions but only qualified members can reply.
 

BreezyTiel

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/11/20
Messages
85
Location
Michigan, United States
Real Name
Erica
I encountered one fellow elsewhere (not here) who wanted to know what would happen after their tiels have mated. I politely informed him that IF there are any eggs, they can just be swapped round with fakes. On the spot he decided he wants them to have babies. He proceeded to get really upset and stroppy when everyone reminded him that if he doesn't know what happens when birds mate he should hold off on breeding them... o_O
This is kinda off topic but some people have a moral objection to throwing away eggs with developing bird embryos in them. It may seem silly, but to some it is quite valid. If the eggs are fertile, I personally would have a really hard time throwing them out (even if the breeding wasn't planned)
 
Last edited:

tka

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
4/4/17
Messages
2,045
Location
London, UK
This is kinda off topic but some people have a moral objection to throwing away eggs with developing bird embryos in them. It may seem silly, but to some it is quite valid. If the eggs are fertile, I personally would have a really hard time throwing them out (even if the breeding wasn't planned)
The embryo doesn't start developing until the hen starts incubating them. You usually have a few days/over a week between the first egg being laid and the hen starting to sit on the eggs. If you swap out the eggs before the hen starts sitting, then you're not throwing away a developing embryo.
 
Top