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Somewhat Judgemental about Breeding

cosmolove

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Here's my issue with having it set to only approved members. I get it with emergency situations BUT doesn't that in itself discourage genuine questions and discussion on breeding? Kind of like any topic on this forum. We don't have it set to only approved members can respond, you get some answers from newer owners and some from experienced and that's okay.

I think it'd only resonate the issue if we set it to only approved members. Now having it set to having posts be approved by a mod prior to showing up could be nice as then the attacks would likely stop but honestly that would open a big can of worms.

Like any other topic I think getting all sides is really a good thing. I don't always agree with everything I see here posted and that's fine. That is the beauty of a forum.
 

Hankmacaw

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By @tka " A lot of people have seen the other side of people breeding because they want to. They've adopted birds and seen how many there were in rescues, or they've volunteered at or run rescues themselves. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see how many people don't think about the consequences of breeding and end up with too many birds, are breeding birds hoping to make money and not carefully vetting new owners, are breeding from birds that are aggressive or have health problems, or don't know what they're getting into and end up with problems that they don't know how to solve. Things like egg-binding, the parents attacking or abandoning their chicks, chicks with slow crop or crop burns, chicks with splayed legs, chicks that struggle to wean. There is a LOT that can go wrong when breeding birds and I don't think enough people are aware of that."

I've seen the other side of the coin. I volunteered at a Sanctuary (not a rescue that rehomes). At the time I volunteered. 22 years ago, they had about 350 parrots (they now have close to 1,000) that were/are the worst of the worst. Some had physical issues and some were from breeders who had retired a bird, but the great majority were from people who had absolutely ruined a bird. Some were insane some were super aggressive and some were killers. It dawned on me early on that each and every one of these parrots had at one point in their lives been someone's beloved baby bird - until they were ruined or started down the spiral that leads to death or a sanctuary. That does not make one particularly favorable to the ignorant backyard breeder nor the irresponsible commercial breeder.

This situation exists not only with birds, but with dogs, cats, horses and almost any pet animal you can think of.

IMO and realize this is my opinion - every person who comes on this forum wanting information about breeding is suspect and they don't have enough knowledge nor experience to even consider breeding birds. There are a few, but very few excellent breeders on this forum. I've owned parrots for over 21 years and I would never dream of trying to breed. I know nothing about genetics, I cannot imagine giving up my life 24/7 to care for babies, I cannot stand the appropriate startup costs and I'm absolutely aware that I just don't know enough to be a responsible breeder. And I don't trust that many of the people inquiring on this forum have as much or more qualifications than me.

Remember for every one who is wanting to be a breeder, if they have not prepared properly and are not successful, it is the birds that suffer and pay the price, not that person.
 

Lincee

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@Hankmacaw what you do is respectable, bless you.

and you make valuable points. And i agree with them. But as allready said, our opinion will not stop these people from breeding. They will just fly off to other forums, and possibly even none and try to “wing it”

and thats the main issue here. Not the opinions, those are valued from all sides. But scaring these people away will eventually lead them, and by extension their birds, down the road that could even be darker then when they would remain here, asking for advice.

And giving your opinion can be done in a very respectable way as well. We all know we can do this ;-) we are doing it now! In this very thread :heart:


== edit 1 ==
and lets face it. The problem is not the breeders, thats just a symptom. Its people wanting parrots. As long as people want parrots, there will be people who want a baby parrot, and not adopt. And whatever your opinion is about that.. as long as those people exist, there is a market for breeders.

so i agree, why not help create responsible breeders who care and respect the birds they have. Breeders who are well informed, backed up by a great community such as this, with lots of advice to give to the newly buying bird owners.

isnt that how we reach more of what we want?

== edit 2 ==
and maybe those breeders could work together with local rescue’s. Save some of those parrots as well..
 
Last edited:

Hankmacaw

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There is no justification for me to support irresponsible, deadly behavior by others. I did not encourage nor allow my son to be irresponsible and I won't encourage these wannabe breeders.

Did you ever hear the old saying that Sally wanted to be a concert pianist, she just didn't want to practice.
 

cosmolove

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Another side to this, the environment on the breeding section the way it is now means those interested in breeding just leave over getting attacked and never learn ALL sides of breeding. Like Hankmacaw's experience, I think breeders should know about that! It should be something that goes into their decision, but the way we have breeding a Taboo subject currently there isn't a way for others to learn more. The good, bad, and ugly! Rather they get attacked and go breed anyways and hope for the best. I would rather if someone is going to breed they understand the whole story.

I also really hate the statement of if they're coming here asking questions they have no business doing it. People say that about EVERYTHING and I'm sorry but people are not born with the skills and knowledge of how to ethically breed, or own a parrot (yes, I see people ask questions about parrot ownership and get the same statement thrown at them). They have to learn somewhere and find mentors. To do this the first step is to ASK FOR HELP. Throwing everyone into the fire because they ask a question and show the WANT TO LEARN seems absolutely a ridiculous way to determine if they should breed or not. Sorry this is just a huge pet peeve of mine. Its like people get offended when someone wants to learn and understand a topic and then that same person gets mad over the BYB who doesn't know any better because their questions went unanswered.

End of the day I really feel this thread has one main point, which I think goes over ALL topics not just breeding or even birds. Its okay to disagree with a topic without being rude and going into attack mode. As I mentioned before, I'm not talking about the people who are getting upset they don't like the answers they receive. I'm 100% referring to those that go into attack mode on a member just because they asked a question they don't agree with. You can feel strongly about a topic and educate on that topic about why its a bad idea without belittling another member and making them feel unwelcome.
 

Matto

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I'm not going to get into this again. I've started a thread before about this and said my piece, made my opinion known. It is up to the community (well, the admins really) to decide what's best.
 

Hankmacaw

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I also really hate the statement of if they're coming here asking questions they have no business doing it. People say that about EVERYTHING
That is hyperbole and inaccurate. Hundreds have received a lot of help on this forum. Many bird's lives have been saved, many relationships with birds saved, many people have been helped in choosing a companion bird, many have been given excellent advice on diets, much assistance helping to rehome - on and on and on.
 

macawpower58

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I'm also aware this is a contentious topic, just like free flying.
In the world of breeding, you'll find a very small handful of breeders doing it right.
You'll find hundreds if not thousands doing it horribly. And that is with every animal on earth.
Backyard, commercial, loving pet owners, most should not even attempt it IMO.
Health, genetics, proper diet and housing, supply and demand, knowledge of state laws, so much comes into play (especially with exotics) that the normal person will never be able to do it ethically.
If the newcomer asking questions runs off offended, no problem. If they are to ever be one of the few good ones, they'll persevere no matter the obstacles.
I'd rather discourage all, in the hopes of keeping even one from seeing if a nest box does the trick. That one that is destined to do it right, will do so, even if we aren't a part of their journey.
And those that do run off offended, they're not the people we want breeding birds or any animal for that matter.
Nor are they the ones we want to buy from. They're the ones who's birds end up in the garage, the shed outside and eventually a rescue.

I love a well bred German Shepherd.
I can get one anywhere, right?
Every back yard has one they'll breed.
Every city pound has them available.
Heck, I can get a free one and breed myself!

Sadly birds are now the same way.
I wish breeders needed a 'ethical license' to breed anything.

To keep our pets genetically sound and healthy, we need breeders that are willing to do the work, and spend the money.
But we also need to discourage those that 'just want to try'.
 

Zara

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tka

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I also really hate the statement of if they're coming here asking questions they have no business doing it. People say that about EVERYTHING and I'm sorry but people are not born with the skills and knowledge of how to ethically breed, or own a parrot (yes, I see people ask questions about parrot ownership and get the same statement thrown at them). They have to learn somewhere and find mentors. To do this the first step is to ASK FOR HELP. Throwing everyone into the fire because they ask a question and show the WANT TO LEARN seems absolutely a ridiculous way to determine if they should breed or not. Sorry this is just a huge pet peeve of mine. Its like people get offended when someone wants to learn and understand a topic and then that same person gets mad over the BYB who doesn't know any better because their questions went unanswered.
There are different ways of asking for help though. There's joining the forum, demonstrating that you are a parrot beginner and announcing that you're going to breed your birds, despite people explaining about potential difficulties and, if you're in the US, the sheer number of birds languishing in rescue.

Then there's there's joining the forum, demonstrating that you either have parrot experience or that you're willing to to learn, and saying something like "I'm interested in breeding [species] in the next 5-10 years because [reasons]; what do I need to consider?" People will do their best to talk you out of it, and their reasons should help you solidify your reasons for breeding. If you're in an area with many birds in rescues or being sold cheaply on gumtree, what's going to make the birds you breed different? How are you going to ensure that any birds you breed don't end up in that situation? Are you breeding a species not commonly found in pet homes? Are you breeding an unusual mutation - and do you know the genetic history of your birds so you can predict what mutations their offspring will have? Are you taking over someone's very well-established line of budgies or cockatiels that are documented to live long, healthy lives? If the answer to those questions is no, you are breeding a couple of birds that you got from the pet store and you don't know anything about about their line, that should stop you in your tracks.

Then you need to consider all the things that could go wrong and how you would deal with them. People will tell you about horrible things that have happened to them, from chicks dying in the egg to parents killing their chicks. Some of these things are unusual but harrowing if they do occur. Are you emotionally strong enough to deal with that? Can you afford to take a sick clutch to the vet, or to treat a chick with slow crop or a crop burn? You have to be prepared for hundreds, if not a couple of thousand, of dollars/pounnds/euros in vet fees.

You will quickly realise that there is a lot that you don't know, and that you must learn before even thinking about breeding. You will need specialist equipment, specialist skills and specialist resources, like an excellent avian vet. You will begin to understand how little you do know, and begin to address it.

Breeding birds should be approached with patience and humility. It is not something to rush into. I've said above "thinking about breeding within the next 5-10 years" because I think that's the kind of timescale we're talking about to learn about breeding birds, to tap into networks for breeders, to identify trusted mentors who can guide you, to gain experience in caring for birds when they're healthy and when they're sick, to identify your reasons for breeding and to work out if they're justifiable, to seek out suitable breeding birds that are compatible with each other.

I've owned parrots for over 21 years and I would never dream of trying to breed. I know nothing about genetics, I cannot imagine giving up my life 24/7 to care for babies, I cannot stand the appropriate startup costs and I'm absolutely aware that I just don't know enough to be a responsible breeder.
I just know enough to know that I don't have enough experience, time, space or money to responsibly breed parrots. I also suspect that I'd have a really hard time homing chicks to their new families - I don't trust people enough! I've been asked by a current Pionus breeder if I am likely to be interested in the future, and the answer is almost certainly not. It's an immense responsibility to breed ethically. I can see the weight of that responsibility, and I think I'd stick to enjoying parrots as pets.
 

Monaco

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Another side to this, the environment on the breeding section the way it is now means those interested in breeding just leave over getting attacked and never learn ALL sides of breeding. Like Hankmacaw's experience, I think breeders should know about that! It should be something that goes into their decision, but the way we have breeding a Taboo subject currently there isn't a way for others to learn more. The good, bad, and ugly! Rather they get attacked and go breed anyways and hope for the best. I would rather if someone is going to breed they understand the whole story.

I also really hate the statement of if they're coming here asking questions they have no business doing it. People say that about EVERYTHING and I'm sorry but people are not born with the skills and knowledge of how to ethically breed, or own a parrot (yes, I see people ask questions about parrot ownership and get the same statement thrown at them). They have to learn somewhere and find mentors. To do this the first step is to ASK FOR HELP. Throwing everyone into the fire because they ask a question and show the WANT TO LEARN seems absolutely a ridiculous way to determine if they should breed or not. Sorry this is just a huge pet peeve of mine. Its like people get offended when someone wants to learn and understand a topic and then that same person gets mad over the BYB who doesn't know any better because their questions went unanswered.

End of the day I really feel this thread has one main point, which I think goes over ALL topics not just breeding or even birds. Its okay to disagree with a topic without being rude and going into attack mode. As I mentioned before, I'm not talking about the people who are getting upset they don't like the answers they receive. I'm 100% referring to those that go into attack mode on a member just because they asked a question they don't agree with. You can feel strongly about a topic and educate on that topic about why its a bad idea without belittling another member and making them feel unwelcome.
I think this was well written and something I've tried to say in other threads on different topics. I think every question is an opportunity to impart a little perspective and curiosity about a better philosophy to the asker. It's important, and to @Lincee 's point, possibly the only way to change things at the consumers' level of the issue.
 

JLcribber

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IMO and realize this is my opinion - every person who comes on this forum wanting information about breeding is suspect and they don't have enough knowledge nor experience to even consider breeding birds.
Also my opinion. Anyone truly qualified to breed (I use the word qualified very lightly) does not come to a forum looking for "how to do it". They would already exist in that world and would have mentored/tutored under someone else. Coming here means they do not have any connections in that world, are on their own and only doing it for themselves. Rowing up river without a paddle.
 

macawpower58

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Isn't there a special forum for breeders? One that doesn't allow bashing? I know there used to be safe place for folks just wanting to talk breeding.
 

Mockinbirdiva

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Isn't there a special forum for breeders? One that doesn't allow bashing? I know there used to be safe place for folks just wanting to talk breeding.
There is....Breeders Boulevard....


Also a forum for the wee ones ( I get tagged on occasionally)

 

TikkiTembo

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I love my happy little Tiel who was lovingly hand raised by a breeder who dedicates her entire life to raising healthy and well rounded babies. But I've seen first hand the damage done to birds by people buying babies and then giving them up once they grow up.
I am forever grateful to the breeders that do it right, but even more grateful to be a part of a rescue that picks up the pieces when it all goes wrong.
Like others have said, it's the animals that suffer when humans experiment.
 

Miss Annamarie

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I've ALWAYS bought my animals or gotten them off craigslist like I did with my reptiles or Isla. I've NEVER wanted a rescue. Now that I've gotten Mel, just with not even a week with her. She has so much love pent up and is the sweetest bird I've ever met. She is such a character and adopting you know how their personality already is. On the other hand Basil is from a breeder, he is SO sweet and cute, but honestly you never know how long that can last when you get baby especially people who's first bird is a baby and they have no idea what they really are getting into. But if I ever want to add a baby to my flock I will go to the exact same breeder but at the same time if another rescue were to choose me at the same time I'd go for it asap/

When people off bird forums on facebook message me with their budgies breeding out of clay pots I've always been really put off, but I never am judgmental about it, I ask questions and offer answers. But at the same time a tiny part of me was hoping the next budgie I get is a boy. I'm not against breeders but I'm with you strongly where people need to be educated on it, and people who aren't going to be serious about it and just throw two birds together and post on craigslist about cockatiel babies need to stop, birds don't deserve that.

Oops I think I got a little off topic, also kind of impossible to read since I'm rushing typing since I'm at work.
 

aooratrix

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Another aspect to this problem is some of the rescues themselves. Some of the adoption requirements are RIDICULOUS. Yes, I know they want to the birds to have soft landings, forever homes, and I agree with those sentiments wholeheartedly. However, you are not solving the problem with requirements that are too stringent. If your goal is to KEEP the birds, call yourself a sanctuary, not a rescue. I was turned down by a rescue a few years ago.
 

Miss Annamarie

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Another aspect to this problem is some of the rescues themselves. Some of the adoption requirements are RIDICULOUS. Yes, I know they want to the birds to have soft landings, forever homes, and I agree with those sentiments wholeheartedly. However, you are not solving the problem with requirements that are too stringent. If your goal is to KEEP the birds, call yourself a sanctuary, not a rescue. I was turned down by a rescue a few years ago.
What have you ran into? My rescue was incredibly gracious.
 
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