so what birds actually sell?

[MenomaMinx]

I still don't agree with calling anything "half of a" or "three fourths of a". That's like calling any person with a disability half of a (or three fourths of a) person. Doesn't seem right.

In my experience, the quickest people to be offended Are those least Affected by The subject at hand....... I don't mean you specifically, but I Do recall commercial That used to run during early morning cartoons when I was a child. It features a little girl Dancing in a ballerina tutu and talked about how having cancer surgery wasn't the end of the world – and here was a little girl with half a brain to tell you so. That was the actual wording of the commercial!

In today's politically correct world, I wonder if they would still run it, but I would hope they would.

That little girl deserved every bit Of accolade she got For her recovery, and without the information that she had A significant portion of her brain removed during cancer surgery, she doesn't get full credit for her accomplishment.

If you're wondering how it's possible that she recovered at all, the Neurological science you're looking for is called Neuro plasticity.

For the record, what seems right isn't always what is right in my opinion.

Although if it makes you feel better, I have 2 1/2 pages of medical conditions, so I'm probably the only one here Who really gets what it means to be disabled and Half a person– As I'm nearly 6 feet tall and my wheelchair halfs that easily.It's always hysterically funny the first time somebody sees me stand up out of it And their eyes follow me upward without actually moving so their entire head moves upward as I do Until I achieve my Full height – The effect is that much Cooler if I happen to be wearing heels at the time;-)

Rest assured there's nothing malicious meant against the one and a half budgies when I call them that. In fact, I Wouldn't find it malicious If anyone said that unless they actually Specified they were being malicious – in which case I would mock The human involved . Kumiko usually gets a free pass, but most of her insults towards them Involve what she Expresses as them having special privileges that she doesn't – and almost all the Insults against the one and a half budgies have been spoken By Kumiko directly to my mother over speakerphone.I don't think she's ever said anything Insulting to the birds directly, Although she does Occasionally make their Mouse squeak Noise Back at them, like she's trying to communicate with them.

Those budgies are loved and have their every whim catered to – I don't really think they care about anything else On a self-esteem level.

 

[JLcribber]

So wait.. are some people saying that hatching baby birds into captivity, when they have known nothing else, is equivalent to snatching them from their homes in the wild and forcing them into captivity? o__o

That is like saying that grabbing someone from a rural country and throwing them into a busy city is the same as being born into the city in the first place?? I'm just confused, heh.

The only difference I can see is that a wild caught bird is subjected to the stress of confinement and captivity after being free which is psychologically damaging. A hand fed human imprinted bird has a damaged psyche right from the beginning. It has identity problems (doesn't know it's a bird) and ends up (trying) to form an unnatural mate relationship with the human which ends in frustration and more stress.

"When they have known nothing else".

When that bird matures, deeply ingrained instincts start to show up and they are "driven" to follow them. They "do" know there is supposed to be something else (just not what it is) and things are not happening as they should in the wild. Stress and frustration again.

 

[Onyxena]

Well said!!! My thoughts agree very strongly with you

 

[Flamer]

I just use the ignore function, i cant believe how combatative some people are. Should just save it for real life or pm.


I don't think people have to explain themselves to someone who is just looking to pick a fight and or be nasty. They already know the answer. It does not take a scientist to understand the concept of why wild caught birds could be wrong and why captive breeding is much better. The same can go for all wild animal species.

 

[MsCreature]

The only difference I can see is that a wild caught bird is subjected to the stress of confinement and captivity after being free which is psychologically damaging. A hand fed human imprinted bird has a damaged psyche right from the beginning. It has identity problems (doesn't know it's a bird) and ends up (trying) to form an unnatural mate relationship with the human which ends in frustration and more stress.

"When they have known nothing else".

When that bird matures, deeply ingrained instincts start to show up and they are "driven" to follow them. They "do" know there is supposed to be something else (just not what it is) and things are not happening as they should in the wild. Stress and frustration again.

This I definitely understand. :] I still feel that wild caught birds are going to have a much smaller chance of happiness in captivity than captive-bred birds. It's a hard road to go down with discussions, but I do know that everyone on this forum does their best by their birds and tries to let them be what they are. It's a sad fact that they are taken out of the wild at all, but since they are human-imprinted it would be sad as well for them to go into the wild sometimes. At least with my experience dealing with rehabbing wildlife, with the more intelligent birds we had to be very, very careful to not get them used to humans for their own survival. Just in case.

 

[Hallie]

It's funny how people see the 7 homes statistic and automatically blame breeders.

That's ridiculous!

The bird being rehomed only came from the breeder once. Not seven times.

The problem is with the people that get bird to fit their selfish needs (a bird that talks, a bird that cuddles, a bird that does tricks etc) and give them up as soon as they don't fit their ludicrous expectations. Breeders aren't creating the crisis out there, they're sending their babies off to people that promise to give it a good home. Those new owners that are so quick to rehome are the problem. They rehome the bird as soon as it hits maturity, and then someone sees it on craigslist and thinks it'd be cool to have a 'talking bird' and thus the trend continues.

If I rehomed my birds and they became another statistic, yet another homeless bird, I would blame myself NOT the breeder. The problem is with the people getting these birds, creating demand, and then deciding they no longer want them after a year. C'mon guys.

 

[cosmolove]

The problem isn't just the breeders but they do play a big role in the problem.

I think reputable GOOD breeders are fine. We need *some* breeders. But when everyone and their mother is breeding the cockatiels that's where we run into problems.

The more breeders keep pumping out babies the less likely a bird needing rehomed will end up in another good home. When there is so many birds already out there in shelters and looking for home many breeders are causing more issues by continuing to breeder.

Less breeders pumping out babies would bring the supply of birds down causing the supply and demand to even out a little and give the rescue birdies a chance.

I once (long ago) considered breeding lovebirds and cockatiels. I'm so glad I didn't out of the 5 lovebirds and cockatiels I've owned all have been rescues/rehomes. There was no need for me to be adding to the problem.

The same goes for dogs, cats, and horses.


While the problem has a lot to do with the owners the breeders are partially at fault too. Also if breeders would ensure their babies were going to a home that has already done their homework then the chances of a rehome would be even lower.

So breeders play a huge role in the problem just like the owners.

 

[Hallie]

I agree that the breeders play a role in the problem, but the route of the problems are the owners who don't do necessary research or are too quick to rehome. Birds will always be easily available, it's up to us, the owners, to insure they don't end up homeless. I'm shocked at how fast birds are up for rehome after being purchased around here. Unfortunately, they fall into flippers hands, and I won't support a flipper. There is a lady here who "shops" on craigslist for birds needing homes and once she gets them she raises the price and resells them just days later. She seriously gets most of the birds being rehomed on Craigslist.

 

[LaSelva]

“I still feel that wild caught birds are going to have a much smaller chance of happiness in captivity than captive-bred birds.”

I'd say it depends on the definition of happiness we establish as well as the nature of the "captivity" we're speaking of. Captivity could mean aviary bird or it could mean personal companion. A wild caught bird housed in an aviary with conspecifics could certainly be happy. There are standards for captive animal welfare and freedom of natural behaviors is one of them. But I've read about how deprivation (parental, environmental), as in human raised animals, can ruin a developing brain for life. That is, in terms of the abnormal dendritic growth that results. It's actually specualted that because of this wild caught birds are better equipped to handle adversity (this would include being trapped, shipped and caged). It's because once a brain develops into a normal one (during the critical juvenile period) it remains normal throughout life/is less affected by adverse experiences. The bird (once in captivity) knows it's a bird and doesn't look to us to fulfill any emotional needs. And that human raised birds, for reasons above, are more likely to suffer from PTSD type symptoms. It makes sense on many levels. Deprive a developing human child of emotional needs and you'll see the same symptoms as they mature (swaying, self inflicted harm, etc.). It's an interesting topic.

 

[MenomaMinx]

It's not enough to be educated just about your own bird species if you're going to be a part of a larger community of people with flocks of various genetic origins: you have to be educated enough to reach out and help just like you would want to be helped – at least to the best of your ability. That's the way I see it anyway.

When I have time, I post heavily to the rehome Highway with birds that look viable that my end up in the wrong hands if craigslist is their only option for adoption into the next home. At least here, I know they have a better chance of getting a forever home.

Interesting thing is, when I have to clarify details about a ad, on the rare occasion when I wanted the bird myself, a lot of times the person either ended up keeping the bird or rehoming through other means{rescues, friends and family, temporary fostering..... Some of these people genuinely want to keep their birds.

Sometimes that's not possible, and they've done everything they can and sometimes go beyond that to the point they are completely frazzled. Best for everybody involved that the bird gets rehomed in the original owner gets commended for recognizing when they're over there head. That last part isn't emphasized enough, because sometimes you give up who you love most because you know that bird will have a better life with someone else that you just can't provide.

 

[MsCreature]

“I still feel that wild caught birds are going to have a much smaller chance of happiness in captivity than captive-bred birds.”

I'd say it depends on the definition of happiness we establish as well as the nature of the "captivity" we're speaking of. Captivity could mean aviary bird or it could mean personal companion. A wild caught bird housed in an aviary with conspecifics could certainly be happy. There are standards for captive animal welfare and freedom of natural behaviors is one of them. But I've read about how deprivation (parental, environmental), as in human raised animals, can ruin a developing brain for life. That is, in terms of the abnormal dendritic growth that results. It's actually specualted that because of this wild caught birds are better equipped to handle adversity (this would include being trapped, shipped and caged). It's because once a brain develops into a normal one (during the critical juvenile period) it remains normal throughout life/is less affected by adverse experiences. The bird (once in captivity) knows it's a bird and doesn't look to us to fulfill any emotional needs. And that human raised birds, for reasons above, are more likely to suffer from PTSD type symptoms. It makes sense on many levels. Deprive a developing human child of emotional needs and you'll see the same symptoms as they mature (swaying, self inflicted harm, etc.). It's an interesting topic.

This is a very good point. I'm sleepy right now, so tomorrow I may be able to actually post something back worthwhile haha. (I wonder if we started a new thread to discuss this if it would turn into madness or actually be worthwhile. I looove things like this where I can learn and have any preconceived notions of mine get challenged.)

I think that the concept of a captive caught bird just grates against me because taking them out of their habitat.. I don't know, but it makes me sad to think of. But then again, it could just be because my earliest bird experiences were wildlife rehab where our goal was to release them?

Maybe enough research can/has/is going into this for changes to the breeding process to happen? I want to write more, but I'm sleepy and will do it in the morning so I don't ramble! Lol

 

[sodakat]

It's a bit moot to discuss taking wild birds at this point, considering the almost universal laws against it and particularly because most countries don't allow the few birds that are legal to be taken to be imported.

I think most everyone knows my bias towards having birds parent their own chicks but I do understand the expediency of hand feeding being a way to force a chick to be comfortable with people without the extra months of work and waiting that is needed before some parent raised chicks behave the way most buyers expect a companion parrot to behave.

I'm not much of a trainer and don't want to be a breeder. If I were either, maybe I could have produced parent-raised chicks who were ready for new homes at say, 9 months. As it is now, I think most of mine are well into their second year before they are comfortable meeting new people. A dedicated breeder would have lots and lots of time in a parent-raised bird before it would be considered "pet quality" to most people I think. I'm not sure this is realistic.

 

[JLcribber]

It's a bit moot to discuss taking wild birds at this point, considering the almost universal laws against it and particularly because most countries don't allow the few birds that are legal to be taken to be imported.

I think most everyone knows my bias towards having birds parent their own chicks but I do understand the expediency of hand feeding being a way to force a chick to be comfortable with people without the extra months of work and waiting that is needed before some parent raised chicks behave the way most buyers expect a companion parrot to behave.

I'm not much of a trainer and don't want to be a breeder. If I were either, maybe I could have produced parent-raised chicks who were ready for new homes at say, 9 months. As it is now, I think most of mine are well into their second year before they are comfortable meeting new people. A dedicated breeder would have lots and lots of time in a parent-raised bird before it would be considered "pet quality" to most people I think. I'm not sure this is realistic.

It's not realistic. The only breeder who could/would do that is one who breeds for the love of birds and makes absolutely no money because the cost and time to do it properly would all be used plus more. No profit and more than likely some loss. How many breeders out there are like that? One in a million?

 

[MsCreature]

I wish there were more out there like that. :/ Or at least more people willing to work with a parent-raised chick to earn trust. I feel it's an interesting subject, and I would personally love to learn more on it. Would there be anyway to co-raise a chick? I know some parents allow their chicks to be handled to a point by humans... but other than feeding a chick, handling them would be beneficial at least, hmmm...

In the case of kittens, I do know that if they are bottle-fed they tend to never fully develop mentally.

Does anyone know if there has been any research into the brain development of birds in different situations? I'm going to do some looking around online, but if someone already knows a reputable source that would save searching time, haha. I wonder if the brains of birds who are parent-raised in captivity has any differences from birds raised in the wild..

 

[karen256]

I don't understand the problem some people have with handfeeding babies. I don't think it damages them at all (at least when done by someone who knows how and given proper socialization, toys, ect). It's generally recognized that babies should be left with their parents for the first few weeks, and that they should be kept with other babies while being handfed - with their siblings, if possible, or another baby if there are no siblings. In social species where this has been studied (humans, monkeys, dogs), socialization with peers is more important than parents anyway. Handfeeding is done to make them less fearful of humans and new situations, and in that way, it most likely makes them happier and more relaxed in a human world. I know that in those co-parenting experiments, co-parented babies turned out as tame as handfed birds, but always remained more fearful of new situations.

Also something to consider, if wild caught birds seem more resilient than handfed babies - mortality rate of parrots in the wild is quite high, especially the first year. Birds that have any kind of physical problems or social problems that would prevent them blending perfectly into the flock were likely to simply not live long enough to have ever been caught in the first place.

 

[jmfleish]

I don't understand the problem some people have with handfeeding babies. I don't think it damages them at all (at least when done by someone who knows how and given proper socialization, toys, ect). It's generally recognized that babies should be left with their parents for the first few weeks, and that they should be kept with other babies while being handfed - with their siblings, if possible, or another baby if there are no siblings. In social species where this has been studied (humans, monkeys, dogs), socialization with peers is more important than parents anyway. Handfeeding is done to make them less fearful of humans and new situations, and in that way, it most likely makes them happier and more relaxed in a human world. I know that in those co-parenting experiments, co-parented babies turned out as tame as handfed birds, but always remained more fearful of new situations.

Also something to consider, if wild caught birds seem more resilient than handfed babies - mortality rate of parrots in the wild is quite high, especially the first year. Birds that have any kind of physical problems or social problems that would prevent them blending perfectly into the flock were likely to simply not live long enough to have ever been caught in the first place.

I get where Kathy is coming from. I have a six year old SIE who only wants to be on me, humping me, and feeding me...constantly. His older brother isn't as bad, but he definitely seems over-sexed. Was this due to handfeeding as a baby rather than being raised by his parents? I don't know. I also think that a lot of the problems that Cockatoos have are due to the fact that they imprint too heavily on us and don't learn that they are birds. I think there is a fine line between parent raising and handfeeding. I am not a breeder, I don't have the answers, I respect those breeders like Melissa and I think that we have to give the good breeders out there some credit. I also think that we need to learn more from those good breeders. Parrots are here to stay as pets whether we like it or not. Education is the key and learning is the strongest tool in our grab bag, yet so often we'd rather just fight with each other.

 

[LaSelva]

karen256,

We can speculate on whether one species can truly raise another without psychological damage. And, in truth, a human raised bird (even co-parented) has it’s imprinting process interfered with - and that can cause issues and does, not just with parrots.

But to be fair (generally speaking) there is something to be said for the substitutions we can give an animal of any species not born or raised in it’s natural environment. In terms of enrichment, socialization, etc. Theoretically, satisfying the emotional/genetic need in one way or another should be sufficient to prevent stereotypies from developing. For example, a human raised tiger cub could have it’s need for siblings met by a litter of puppies raised alongside it. In addition to human parents. It’s the end, not the means after all. Even if so, parrots are not mammals/predators like us. And our societal dynamic as well as attachment needs, to name two, are very different. I think therein lies the difficulty as it may make deprivation more likely as well as difficult to determine. Going back to the tiger, once fully grown, one still has a wild nature to contend with.

“if wild caught birds seem more resilient than handfed babies “

And as far as that statement, we should not forget that it doesn’t just apply to birds. It is true of lions, tigers, wolves, polar bears…..I could go on. Research on animal stereotypies in captivity (for example, zoos) has shown that wild caught adult animals have fewer of them. Which has led researchers to speculate that they are “neurologically” protected from them. And the reason is because they were living in their natural environment when their young brains were developing. And every new study reveals surprising ways in which parrots interact with their world.

 

[Callista15]

Bad, bad idea!! Don't breed for the money! My family and I breed both dogs and chickens. We're lucky if we break even. For example, Clover, our oldest female has cost over ten grand, and out of two litters of three puppies each, she hasn't got us more than two grand back, and that has instantly gone back into the dogs. One of her puppies cost two grand before she was twelve weeks. And one of our breeding hens earned the nickname "Diamond Hen" after she burned through three grand in a week. Unless your willing to burn money by the truckload for the sake of your birds, don't breed. It isn't fair to them, and you'll end up cursing with your finances in the ditch, and the birds drifting from home to home with broken hearts. Please. I beg you. Be responsible. Breeding isn't a bed of roses, or dollar bills.

 

[Callista15]

The problem isn't just the breeders but they do play a big role in the problem.

I think reputable GOOD breeders are fine. We need *some* breeders. But when everyone and their mother is breeding the cockatiels that's where we run into problems.

The more breeders keep pumping out babies the less likely a bird needing rehomed will end up in another good home. When there is so many birds already out there in shelters and looking for home many breeders are causing more issues by continuing to breeder.

Less breeders pumping out babies would bring the supply of birds down causing the supply and demand to even out a little and give the rescue birdies a chance.

I once (long ago) considered breeding lovebirds and cockatiels. I'm so glad I didn't out of the 5 lovebirds and cockatiels I've owned all have been rescues/rehomes. There was no need for me to be adding to the problem.

The same goes for dogs, cats, and horses.


While the problem has a lot to do with the owners the breeders are partially at fault too. Also if breeders would ensure their babies were going to a home that has already done their homework then the chances of a rehome would be even lower.

So breeders play a huge role in the problem just like the owners.

So true! I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[CheekyBeaks]

When it comes to wild birds personally I prefer to see them in the wild, it really comes down to the very most selfish desire to continue ripping birds out of their habitat purely to satisfy the pet trade, if that's how I had to source a bird I wouldn't keep them despite my love for them, I just wouldn't want to support that.

Thankfully many birds are protected and cannot legally be taken but there are some even here in Australia that are still pulled from the wild. The Red CappedParrot from Western Australia is still being wild caught for the pet trade, sadly these birds are so flighty and panic to such an extreme that if they don't break their neck trashing about in cages they die from stress, I haven't experienced this myself but have met several people who have and it is heartbreaking. For these birds in particular handrearing is the recommended method of rearing these birds to cope in captivity. I bred a clutch last year took them at 3weeks so they experienced and saw their parents, I took over hand rearing them and put them back with mum and dad when weaned, I feel these birds were very well adjusted they still know they are birds and while they are happy to say hi to me they prefer to be with their own kind.

When it comes to rearing captive birds I can agree with both sides here to some degree. I have seen the results of various raising methods and their effects. Babies that are sooked, overhanded, mollycoddled, and especially not socialised with other birds tend to lack the social skills to interact with other birds appropriately and often develop unhealthy pair bonded relationships with their owners. My Janday was raised on her own and sadly is picked on by every bird I have introduced her to, I think she lacks the communication skills and they bully her as a result as she is a sweet submissive type bird. And precious my rainbow hen was absolutely sooked from day one as she was rejected by her parents, I don't believe she as ever adequately socialised with other birds either, she can cohabit with other birds but doesn't really know how to interact properly, and she sees me as her mate despite living with two eligible bachelors very keen to pair up with her, she doesn't understand.

Now birds that are raised in groups, not overhandled or sooked, and taken at around the 2-3 week stage after eyes have opened, allowed to fledge fully tend to be far more balanced birds. I am lucky to be able to compare my Handraised babies with parent raised babies as I let my pairs raise their own as well and I haven't noticed much difference in development.

Personally I really don't like raising overly sooky babies, I like babies that know they are birds first and foremost but like to interact and spend time with people, these type of birds are going to make much better companions with less issues than overly needy babies that believe they are little feathered humans that don't know how to amuse and occupy themselves.