My experience/thoughts on *taming* a clipped vs. flighted bird.

[TextsFromParrots]

In my comparisons I've found the clipped bird is tamer then the unclipped. When I got Piper she was fully clipped and could just make controlled flutters to the ground. Lafayette could fly from the time I opened up the carrier when he was brought home. They both have very defined personalities and now they can both fly.

Piper-Is far more willing to trust me to work with her or do things that don't seem natural like playing with her feet, flipping her over, extending her wings. She tends to aim her flight at me and when she is around me or on me she wants to preen me or play with my buttons. She's more laid back and seems more eager to 'please'. She also listens if I tell her 'no' she'll stop and look at me. If I tell her no again she leaves off what she's doing to get something else to do. Training with her is always very laid back and easy. She's eager to learn.

Lafayette-Devil with wings. He's got ADD. He's obsessed with his own self importance and the belief he can go where ever he wants when he wants. Training with him lasts less then five minutes because as soon as there's a pause with no treats he flies away. He rarely listens to verbal signals, he has no sense of when he's not supposed to be somewhere and when we're hanging out he refuses to relax. He's always running around like an ADD riddled 5 year old. He won't let me work with him in getting used to having his wings handled and the like, instead he just leaves. Getting him to understand is making me slightly insane. He came to me hand fed and if he had been wild from day one, there is no way I could deal with him. My only saving grace is he will step up and is obsessed with sunflower seeds.

Which relationship is more rewarding? The one with Piper definitely. I feel we bond more together and I don't feel frustrated with her. Now, is it just due to two personality types or due to one coming clipped and the other flighted? I don't feel Piper and I's relationship has ever been tarnished because of how she came. Instead I had time to work with her training and form a solid bond. In truth, I'm considering doing the same to Lafayette because things could easily get bad if he doesn't start to learn proper manners and where he shouldn't go. The fact he's flighted is interfering with that to the point I'm feeling stressed out and worried he'll end up hurt.

 

[GlassOnion]

Honestly, I feel that your relationship with Lafeyette isn't as strong because you and him didn't have a chance to bond. There was no quarantine and L and P met from day one, caged together from day one. I don't find this having to do with clipped/flighted, but see it as a natural tendency for a bird to bond to another of its same species when given the chance.

 

[Coco's Momma]

Definitely lots of different perspectives which is what makes the world go around!

I have 3 fully flighted budgies, one of which I found in a tree near my job (so he was not only flighted, but wild), and they were not only never clipped to work with them, but I also never separated them to work with them. In addition to suggesting clipping to 'tame', so many people will say that you cannot let them have friends if you want them to bond with you, or that you must separate them in order to work with them. I work with all of my birds together.

So this is my Exhibit 'A' for 3 fully flighted birds that were not clipped or separated to be worked with:

 

[TextsFromParrots]

Honestly, I feel that your relationship with Lafeyette isn't as strong because you and him didn't have a chance to bond. There was no quarantine and L and P met from day one, caged together from day one. I don't find this having to do with clipped/flighted, but see it as a natural tendency for a bird to bond to another of its same species when given the chance.

Wtf they were NOT caged together from day one. Lafayette arrived and was seperate from Piper for around 30 days before they lived together. I had plenty of time working with just him and no interaction from piper. Not sure where you got I brought lafayette hoe and threw him in a cage with her, but that is NOT the case.

 

[Bokkapooh]

It could have been the breeders fault and not handling him as much as Piper was handled and raised at her breeders. But it doesn't have anything to do with flight or being clipped.

 

[TextsFromParrots]

It could have been the breeders fault and not handling him as much as Piper was handled and raised at her breeders. But it doesn't have anything to do with flight or being clipped.

Okay to be truthful this argument is very biased. Im pro flight, but everyone here seems ready to say any experiance with clipping that was good is happenstance while any good happening with those flighted is gospel truth. I personally feel that birds should be flighted but I don't discount that being clipped once or a few times isnt a bad thing. Lafayette.was handled constantly growing up and Piper was as well. Perhaps its a personality difference or something else. However I have as much evidence in my feelings as the OP has in theirs. I don't discount her results and no one else has. Yet my feelings and experiences are discounted because they're not proflight?

 

[LivingFiction]

Okay to be truthful this argument is very biased. Im pro flight, but everyone here seems ready to say any experiance with clipping that was good is happenstance while any good happening with those flighted is gospel truth. I personally feel that birds should be flighted but I don't discount that being clipped once or a few times isnt a bad thing. Lafayette.was handled constantly growing up and Piper was as well. Perhaps its a personality difference or something else. However I have as much evidence in my feelings as the OP has in theirs. I don't discount her results and no one else has. Yet my feelings and experiences are discounted because they're not proflight?

Your experience and observations are just as valid as anyone else's. I wouldn't let it get under your skin. I don't think anyone means anything personal. It's very easy to take up a position then gather data to support it. If it's working for them, it's working for them, there's no good, bad, right or wrong involved. You're looking to what will work best for you. That's what's most important.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I'm not discounting anyone's opinions or beliefs but clipping a bird and forcing it to be handled won't tame a bird. Forcing a bird to do anything won't build trust. I have only clipped two budgies to try and tame them, they were more "submitted into shock" than "tamed" as once they were flighted again I had to re"tame" them. Since then I just prefer to work with flighted birds, giving them choices and using positive reinforcement whenever possible to build a long-term relationship not a short term one based on dominance.

 

[Bokkapooh]

And my post was not about anti clipping vs pro flight, just basing everything off experience and parrot behavior. I understand some people need to clip. However clipping to tame won't get the result most people want long-term.

 

[GlassOnion]

Wtf they were NOT caged together from day one. Lafayette arrived and was seperate from Piper for around 30 days before they lived together. I had plenty of time working with just him and no interaction from piper. Not sure where you got I brought lafayette hoe and threw him in a cage with her, but that is NOT the case.

I apologize! I thought I remember reading that you got L and introduced to Piper right away-- with people questioning whether you quarantined.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I apologize! I thought I remember reading that you got L and introduced to Piper right away-- with people questioning whether you quarantined.

I don't mean to bring up trouble. But your correct. I remember the same. And here is a link to a pic of them two just 10 days after Lafayette being home. Sorry KalanLafayette and Piper

 

[Mythreeiggys]

I don't mean to bring up trouble. But your correct. I remember the same. And here is a link to a pic of them two just 10 days after Lafayette being home. Sorry KalanLafayette and Piper

I'm not sure what you are trying to point out Mercedez but if you read her post in this thread it says they were not caged together. If you go to the post that you gave it clearly says " They've spent today running in and out of each other's cages and won't be more then a few inches from each other."

That to me says they were not caged together! And if they were, who are we to judge? They are her birds!

 

[Bokkapooh]

They were allowed to bond, before Kalan could really bond with him. That's my point and that you cannot say flight is what made him untamed when he didn't even have the chance to bond with a person... being caged together has nothing to do with it so I'm not sure what your getting at as thats not what we are discussing?

 

[TextsFromParrots]

Correct I canNOT q in my house as I have addressed on multiple posts. As for their meeting they had that happen the day my cat stroked and died in my arms. I tore out of the house to the vet hoping to save him but the cage door on lafayettes food door was open so when I came home he was hanging out with piper. The weren't caged together even then. Their meeting had not been planned. And as said they are my birds.

As for being allowed to bond he continued and continues to spend two to three hours alone with me nearly daily when he was in private cage. I don't feel completely isolating a bird and forcing him to only have my company is the best way to keep birds personally.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I don't care whether you quarantine or not, or clip or remain flighted, I don't care if they're housed together. They're your birds. I respect that. You do what you do. However, for point of discussion/debate/argument I do care if facts remain straight though. The point is being flighted did not make him "less tame".

 

[Zamion]

I don't care whether you quarantine or not, or clip or remain flighted, I don't care if they're housed together. They're your birds. I respect that. You do what you do. However, for point of discussion/debate/argument I do care if facts remain straight though. The point is being flighted did not make him "less tame".

So am I correct in understanding you believe it to be FACT that Lafeyette's being unclipped did not make him less tame? I want to make sure I understand here.


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[unicornlady7]

The only birds that came to my home and were NOT clipped were Pheobe and Apollo. I did clip them when I brought them home, but only because they were a danger to themselves. They are now growing in new flights and are showing better coordination. They were quite ignored for 2 of their three years of life (not sure about their first 6 or so months and they are anything but ignored here ). They are still quite friendly, tho. Not quite in the way my previous 'tiels had been, but I'm impressed because of the way they were kept before. I think that the clipping has helped "slow them down" and therefore aid in their coordination, but it didn't necessarily aid in taming. When I brought them home, they were scared by the change, but not really wild.. Aristotle was already clipped. He was nervous and kinda flipped out if I put my hand in the cage, so I would talk to him every time I went by his cage. I then would open his cage, walk a few feet away to sit, then talk to him. After only a few days, he was flying to me! He is clipped, but he is still quite a good flyer - just not long distance and no elevation. He still shows a bit of independance and I let him have it. If he feels like just hanging out, he let's me know and I go to doing something else and he flies to me when he is ready. I do like their freedom of choice, but as others have said - sometimes a clip is needed. If you can't provide a safe area for flight or the bird is a "crash full speed into everything" kind of bird, well a light clip slows them down enough to keep them safe. As for taming, I couldn't really say. I once told someone that your not a bad parent for bottle feeding instead of breast feeding - your a bad parent if you're NOT feeding at all. I think it's safe to say that as long as you're taking good care of your fid(good food, water, clean cage, etc), then your a good pet owner. If you're starving your fid or neglecting it...well, not so good. There are far worse things happening to animals out there...

 

[TextsFromParrots]

On the note of him NOT bonding with me. THAT is part of the problem. He is OVERbonded with me. Despite being introduced to Piper and lovey with her, he will always follow me. I can't pee alone, I can't go to the kitchen, I can't move into my bedroom. This means even if I try to go into the bathroom my options are A) lock him in the cage even if I have to pee or B) Let him in. If the door is closed he lands on the floor and calls after me. He wants to be with me all the time. If I'm at the couch he'll fly to me over and over and over again. I love having him with me, but I'm getting at a loss on how to teach him that there are certain places he can't be with me and training him isn't going well.

http://forums.avianavenue.com/conure-court/60166-clipped-flighted.html#post930591
http://forums.avianavenue.com/airport/52882-nothing-sacred.html

 

[dolldid]

I have to say i love this thread , as you all know i clipped mango end of april and he ended up pluckint him self

first reason i clipped was he wasnt happy if i tryed cleanin ot doing a thing to him

i was to just sit so he could be by me , after clipping he discovered it was ok if

i need to clean cook do other thing as he was with me sitting on my shoulder he

discovered also he could sit and watch as i always had a chair handy to sit him on near me

so now hes almost finished molting and is flying as he used to befor clipped , i can clean cook do anything and hes happy he saw another side of life he was missing out on .

I have to agree a clippe bird id crippled as we are if we lose out arms or legs but we
learn to manuver through life as they learn to .

The decision to clipp or not to is a had decision to make but if well thought out that bird will
adjust id say your thinking right but if you see that there not adjusting let things be as they should

as for mango he will never be clipped again even after im gone as my son and fergie think as i do
he was ment to be free and able to fly , being free is not caged haveing the run of the home
its not always easy making decisions but if you put your self in the posision to have a bird
its up to you to make sure hes happy health and by doing that your a good parront

i do agree a bird bonding befor clipping let it be there choice not yours

 

[jmfleish]

*Edits in CAPS

Alright, so let's agree that we are not choosing what may be best for the absolute positive best for the bird in a perfect world. I agree, but since we are dealing with an imperfect foundation, let's allow for imperfect solutions to creating the best possible situation for our feathered family members.

I did not mean to hijack this thread, it's true, the OP was referencing this practice in relation to taming. I think I was responding to the intentionally volatile word choice of mutilation, which I feel is an inappropriate use of the word. It is absolutely possible to improperly or excessively clip a birds wings, which would absolutely be a mutilation, but at mindful, purposeful choice, even one that may be limiting in a particular area, when done appropriately to the circumstances, is not a mutilation.

In regard to clipping to tame. I generally chose to clip birds that were not tame, largely because it enabled me to take better care of them. Even my very wild quaker got just as much out of cage time as the rest of the flock who were not clipped, because I didn't have to worry about her flying around and attacking anyone, or hurting herself. She did increase in her willingness to be handled, and some of that may have had to do with her dependence on me.

I think to disregard the value of clipping your budgie is an error. Birds have good memories, the fact that you established yourself as someone who would take care of your bird, and a safe person was not likely forgotten when the wings grew in. I imagine the newfound freedom was exciting, and took the place of it's desire for your attention for a time, but the relationship you established remained, even if it were expressed differently. I love my parents, but my relationship with them is very different now that I am no longer dependent on them. I'm also not running around looking for seniors to be friends with. My friendship with them is founded upon the bonds we developed while I was dependent.

And before anyone gets upset, I don't believe captive birds are bad, clearly, I'm here

The same statements could be said about raising a child in anyplace where pollution is present and they are unable to run and explore unsupervised. I don't think the lack of one's ability to provide the "perfect" environment means they shouldn't reproduce.

Ok, once again, I want to say that I'm not stating one way or another whether a clipped bird or a fully flighted bird is the way to go. What I'm saying is that you literally are handicapping a bird by clipping it. You are stopping it from getting around the way it would naturally get around. You replaced fligthed with free and that is not what I'm saying at all. I'm literally saying that a parrot is meant to fly and that everything about it's design is about flight, everything. How can you not say it's a handicap when you remove its ability to do the one thing it was designed to do. Once again, it's not a judgment so much as it's a discussion on why the word *handicapped* works in this particular situation. Even mutilation does really kind of work for me, especially when you are talking about a very young bird who hasn't been given the chance to learn to truly fly yet and I'm not talking about taking a few flights and then clipping. There are lots of articles out there about how the brain develops while learning, truly learning to fly and this happens over months and years, not weeks.

I get the fact that there are reasons to clip. I'm actually seriously considering clipping Kishka a little because of his newest behavior of biting me in the neck all the time but he is 18 months old and has clearly learned to fly. I think that too often, people look at clipping as something that isn't permanent...the feathers grow back and it doesn't hurt to clip them but they fail to realize the damage that can be done to a baby bird when it hasn't been given the proper time to truly learn how to fly and this cannot be discounted. We have tons of birds out there who, as adults, are terrified of flying and their owners are convinced that they will never learn to fly because they run into walls and windows and flying just isn't safe. I truly feel that if breeders would give these birds months to learn to fly and teach the owners how to care for a flighted bird that this wouldn't be the case. You hear all the time that people have birds that they are sure they weren't fledged...well, that depends on your definition of fledging. Just like there is a critical stage in humans where it's easier to learn all sorts of things, like language, the same is true of parrots. There is a small window where learning to fly is natural and if you don't do it during this time frame, it's not as easy to do as an adult...not impossible but harder.

As for is it natural to cage a bird or to have a bird living in the house that's debatable. We are at a place in history where all the birds being bred are bred in captivity...they truly cannot live in a wild environment for the most part. They are no longer fully wild and yes, our living room is their norm. I would love to go cage free and I think you can do so successfully in many instances. I do choose to cage because if I didn't, my Cockatoos would eat my house. That doesn't mean that I can't let them have their ability to fly if at all possible. And once again, what I'm talking about isn't about whether or not clipping is ok, it's just a discussion of why the word "handicapped" truly does apply.