Monaco is barbering

[Monaco]

Okay, the foot preening was odd, but she just snipped the tips from the last primaries today, and is still grabbing at them as the day goes on. She is trimming her nails too.

She had a bath day before yesterday. No new food to speak of, but still eating a lot roudybush pellets. I am waiting for her to finish some grapes before I put any more pellets in her dish... She's resorting to a millet spray I stuffed in her foraging ball. Is she needing more fat while she's molting?

 

[expressmailtome]

Bump.

 

[sunnysmom]

Could it be a food allergy?

@mythic55 ? @EkkieLu ?

 

[mythic55]

Greetings all.

Barbering is something that is similar to plucking (although i put them in two different categories- technically speaking)- the fact that it is just the tip is a interesting trait that is very common in ekkies unfortunately.

Requirements for birds who are molting: Protein.
Ekkies lack many of the barbed feathers- except for the wings (like you mentioned). The feathers in birds (shaft, barbs, rachis, etc) are produced from methionine and cysteine (proteins). So protein becomes paramount in rebuilding those same structures again. Fat is provided for more energy during a taxing undertaking of growing for most birds, however:

Abundant hexrose (fructose and gluclose) and starch from seeds is primary energy source (not fat). Digesting fat in the duodenum is a lengthy process in their unique anatomy. Therefore, Eclectus produce triglycerides in the liver (which are abundantly present soft fleshy fruit) which replaces the need for high fat. Excess fat from seeds or pellets slows digestion causing digestive distress.

So any irritation on the skin, or digestive could be a culprit.
You mentioned increased pellet intake, and millet. That can be a tell tale sign... it may have been triggered by environmental factor and exasperated by dietary.
Like a human who eats junk food when they dont feel well.....

Questions: drop in humidity lately?
Does she take baths?
How are the sleeping habits?

 

[mythic55]

Some of the best sources of protein for ekkies: Quinoa, Kidney beans (kidney beans are paramount in comparision to other beans) and of course hard boiled egg..... unless of course you want to start breeding termites (white the females eat in abundance in the wild- ha!)

 

[mythic55]

I hit enter too fast:
I see you do give baths- is it with a spray bottle or running water?
Also- do you see any swelling in the feet at all? Some signs of fatty liver can be a slight swelling/irritation of the feet. Which can cause 'picking' and can lead to self mutiliation.

 

[Monaco]

We've had an increase in humidity lately, and the self bathing in her dish is new, and started during this molt especially when I noticed pins all over her head and close to her eyes. I try to help with a spray bottle when she's dunking in her dish. Prior to that I tried everything I could to find a bath she would like (shower, fountain on the counter, spray bottle, sink, still water dishes...) she would lift up her wing for a shower spray or bottle spray, but definitely wasn't having fun.

Yes, the pellets have been a fight for a couple of weeks. I did get some carrots and sweet potatoes in her, by mashing in with yellow potatoes and cauliflower. Extra turmeric and cinnamon on pumpkin hid broccoli yesterday.

We have a modified daylight schedule, and it's been better at 13 hours sleep time until a few weeks ago. She started growling and lunging when I cover her a few weeks ago, so I started covering her only 7-8 hours, and the first 4 are uncovered with a nightlight. Much less aggression, but not really any difference in time in her sleep cage. I moved from 8 hours to 12, then 13 after a long spate of nesting and hormones and aggression, and it helped a lot. Is it time to change again? (from November to now, 8 hours for the first month, then 12 for a month, and 13 since then.)

I keep editing... When she first got here, I thought her feet looked puffy, but I didn't have any reference point, so I just watch carefully. Now that you mention it, she does have days that they look puffy, and days they don't. Lately they seem thin and a little bit too dry.

 

[mythic55]

Edit until it says you cant... I do it all the time as I try to mult-task!

Bathing is becoming more frequent: Females generally molt (around the rainy season), then breed. When they are preparing to breed they will often nest, and pluck feathers (and shred wood excessively) to create a nest. But in companion birds, this can be skewed- however the increased humidity more than likely triggered a molt. That is completely normal... but the foot irritation with excessive plucking could mean a combination of things.

I wonder if we can somehow solve the bathing issue- that can really alliviate some of the pressure for birds. I find coaxing helpful.... bird watches them do the dishes, etc. Often I have had rescues that needed 'incentive': placing a low baking dish on a solid surface, pretending to 'play' with it, then adding in a favorite treat they need to fish out. Sometimes the 'incentive' game took hours, sometimes multiple attempts over weeks.

Feet: Could you snap a photo of her feet?
I am almost obsessive looking at avian feet....- some call it a foot fetish? (bad joke.... but im trying to levity things). But feet can reveal a multitude of chronic or acute conditions. For feet dryness- I would recomend a bit of topical coconut oil- but you dont want to entice birds with flavor if they are picking.

Sleep: Wow- that is a complicated plan!
In the wild, it is never truly dark.... the moon provides an amazing scape of brilliant colors and reflections that illuminate their world. I cover my enclosures partially- as I believe complete darkness can cause insanity in most species
In my zoo, birds get 9 hours sleep- If your babies sleep schedule has seemed to change- maybe it is further stimulation she requires? Your enclosure and care is amazing- however maybe it is something deeper, instinctual?

 

[Monaco]

Edit until it says you cant... I do it all the time as I try to mult-task!

Bathing is becoming more frequent: Females generally molt (around the rainy season), then breed. When they are preparing to breed they will often nest, and pluck feathers (and shred wood excessively) to create a nest. But in companion birds, this can be skewed- however the increased humidity more than likely triggered a molt. That is completely normal... but the foot irritation with excessive plucking could mean a combination of things.

I wonder if we can somehow solve the bathing issue- that can really alliviate some of the pressure for birds. I find coaxing helpful.... bird watches them do the dishes, etc. Often I have had rescues that needed 'incentive': placing a low baking dish on a solid surface, pretending to 'play' with it, then adding in a favorite treat they need to fish out. Sometimes the 'incentive' game took hours, sometimes multiple attempts over weeks.

Feet: Could you snap a photo of her feet?
I am almost obsessive looking at avian feet....- some call it a foot fetish? (bad joke.... but im trying to levity things). But feet can reveal a multitude of chronic or acute conditions. For feet dryness- I would recomend a bit of topical coconut oil- but you dont want to entice birds with flavor if they are picking.

Sleep: Wow- that is a complicated plan!
In the wild, it is never truly dark.... the moon provides an amazing scape of brilliant colors and reflections that illuminate their world. I cover my enclosures partially- as I believe complete darkness can cause insanity in most species
In my zoo, birds get 9 hours sleep- If your babies sleep schedule has seemed to change- maybe it is further stimulation she requires? Your enclosure and care is amazing- however maybe it is something deeper, instinctual?

I suspect that being clipped for the entirety of her life is playing a part, however small. She genuinely looks unsteady trying to preen the new primaries. I know there's a history of plucking the trimmed ones if they are bothering her sides, and she frequently tries to soften the ends... It's not outside the realm of habit to "work" the tips with this theory... But, there are so many variables now that im really thinking about it. We don't have the indigenous rainy season, but our Oklahoma crazy weather is starting now, and the barometer is all over the place especially the last couple of weeks...and is only going to get worse until mid June. Then again in October.
The vicious cycle of bad mood, bad food, bad mood is undoubtedly in full swing too.
*Is it cruel to limit the pellets drastically? My fear about her losing weight and getting enough to eat is really the only thing stopping me from doing this.

Her mood is always improved when we don't settle in a hard routine, and new things happen every day. *is this wishful thinking on my part, and going to cause stress that I misinterpret because she's not getting enough time in the day to really do things like try to nest and resource guard? *is it healthier for her complete those activities? (there is nothing for her to actually make a nest, but she can be compulsive about trying.)

I have so many thoughts and concerns about this as part of her overall health... I just don't want to cause problems for her or contribute to them.

I will try to get a good picture of her feet in a bit. She is happy at the moment... Have to take advantage of it while it lasts! I bet her next meal will give me a good opportunity for pictures.

The weird sleep schedule is entirely because of my work schedule. I'm determined to not keep her caged and alone while I sleep, so I do what I can to adjust the light for artificial sundown and sunrise. Basically night is 12am to 12pm. I'm home about 4am usually and sleep to noonish. Then she can be out and do whatever she wants unless I go to the store or appointments for a couple of hours.

 

[JLcribber]

I suspect that being clipped for the entirety of her life is playing a part, however small. She genuinely looks unsteady trying to preen the new primaries. I know there's a history of plucking the trimmed ones if they are bothering her sides, and she frequently tries to soften the ends... It's not outside the realm of habit to "work" the tips with this theory... But, there are so many variables now that im really thinking about it.

A great deal of what you're seeing and dealing with is the result of the past. Both physical and mental. There is a point in every "saved" birds life that it resorts to old behaviours because that it what it knows and how it copes. It usually starts at the end of the "honeymoon". Which is approximately where you are.

You are doing wonderful with her. These behaviours will diminish (and hopefully extinguish completely but that is rare) the more time goes on and she learns to cope in a healthier way. It's a slow process that is measured in years. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[Monaco]

A great deal of what you're seeing and dealing with is the result of the past. Both physical and mental. There is a point in every "saved" birds life that it resorts to old behaviours because that it what it knows and how it copes. It usually starts at the end of the "honeymoon". Which is approximately where you are.

You are doing wonderful with her. These behaviours will diminish (and hopefully extinguish completely but that is rare) the more time goes on and she learns to cope in a healthier way. It's a slow process that is measured in years. Slow and steady wins the race.

Thank you, John. It's a relief to hear you guys say I'm doing well, for sure.

Speaking of well...guess who's eating sprouts without knowing? thank goodness for smooshable foods she likes! And her wild rice mix...it can hide lots of things too.


Who knows how much she's actually eating, but she is getting used to the texture, I hope.

You're right, John, slow and steady. A couple of months ago and I might have really reacted in front of her. While I'm sad about it, I try to keep it a non issue so I don't compound whatever is going on.

 

[Monaco]

Here are a few footos... I mean phootos... I mean photos of the dinosaur feet. @mythic55





In the weird preening of the tips she's also chewing the tips of her nails. It's remarkable how she is just dulling the ends and still has grip on things. It's much better than I can do, but it's not methodical and two are still razors.

 

[mythic55]

*Is it cruel to limit the pellets drastically? My fear about her losing weight and getting enough to eat is really the only thing stopping me from doing this.

Eliminating all together would be too drastic in my opinion. Instead:
A) Cutting a freezing desired ingredients individually in the same size/shape as the pellets, defrosting the desired ingredients and mixing them 50/50 with the pellets is a good place to start. Note that roudybushes primary 'flavor' is apple.
B) Other option is to create that mash, and bury pellets in it- she will have no choice but to start eating it (even while eating around it).

Her mood is always improved when we don't settle in a hard routine, and new things happen every day. *is this wishful thinking on my part, and going to cause stress that I misinterpret because she's not getting enough time in the day to really do things like try to nest and resource guard? *is it healthier for her complete those activities? (there is nothing for her to actually make a nest, but she can be compulsive about trying.)

You are doing great- just keep it up! I agree with you that most of my birds are not hugely into routine (except breakfast time and night time cuddles are manditory). Everyday we do something new, play with something new, harness and going outside.... Its all about mental stimulation. I would allow a lot of those activities depending on the duration- dont reward or encourage, just allow her to be a hormonal ekkie. When my green machine has one of his 'tanrums' (practices his attack coordination on random objects)- I step away and let him complete his destructive path and return later with distraction. I only intervene if he goes after my husband....
After all, he is a baby dinosaur with a weapon on his head! LOL

Great Footos!

Her is what I see: Mild dryness, with some peeling (scale, especially near the nail). Scaley skin usually has more than one cause beyond the natural shedding process. However ekkies are particularly prone to that imbalance and irritation which can lead to self mutiliation (often not enough vitamin A and biotin). The chewing of the tip of the nail could be just her natural way of telling you she wants some spa time but just to be safe I know what you fed your bird, down to a science and it is fantastic. I would definitely try to integrate more of these items:
Cooked Sweet potato (not yams)
Cooked carrots
Cooked pumpkin or Squashes (as mentioned the BEST squash for ekkies is butternut)
Sweet red peppers
Mangoes
Papaya (also has digestive enzymes)
I would make this mash/chopped mixture and mix it in with the pellets- you may be able to hide it! or at least she will have to dig the whole pellet out of the mixture.

Also Look for things with Biotin and calcium- now Roudybush does have D3, calcium and biotin, but not a lot of vitamin A: Hard boiled egg has biotin, shell has calcium and also vitamin A (eggs also have protein and vitamin D ). All these items are necessary for feather, beak and nail health. Now I dont normally use red palm oil, but it is in fact high in vitamin A and palatable. Try mixing just a touch with some warm crushed egg

Best thing to help with that molting skin is warm water... I had a CAG for a short time who overpreened his nails and around the metatarsal pad (not bubblefoot- but just a very unhappy bird). So I took a very large sheet pan and lined it with a cloth towel. I put him in.... let him walk around while he got treats. Day 2 I made the towel damp. Day 3 I actually made the warm water 1cm deep... sooner or later he actually took puddle baths.

Towards the nails I sometimes put the smallest smear of unrefined coconut oil. I dont like using aloe as it can actually create a 'crust' and cause more irritation. The smallest amount shouldnt be a problem- but too much can actually get on feathers, etc.

- I would consider allergy as well as many ekkies are prone to allergy.
To combat this safely in all ekkies and without artificial medication I grow Moringa and serve holy basil tea. Moringa is a natural plant which is a H1 antihistamine (non drowsy) and mast cell stabilizer as well as holy basil. I offer the fresh leaves on top of the chop. If you want- I can send you some seeds? germinates very quickly, grows fast, and has a flavor they really enjoy.

 

[Monaco]

Eliminating all together would be too drastic in my opinion. Instead:
A) Cutting a freezing desired ingredients individually in the same size/shape as the pellets, defrosting the desired ingredients and mixing them 50/50 with the pellets is a good place to start. Note that roudybushes primary 'flavor' is apple.
B) Other option is to create that mash, and bury pellets in it- she will have no choice but to start eating it (even while eating around it).



You are doing great- just keep it up! I agree with you that most of my birds are not hugely into routine (except breakfast time and night time cuddles are manditory). Everyday we do something new, play with something new, harness and going outside.... Its all about mental stimulation. I would allow a lot of those activities depending on the duration- dont reward or encourage, just allow her to be a hormonal ekkie. When my green machine has one of his 'tanrums' (practices his attack coordination on random objects)- I step away and let him complete his destructive path and return later with distraction. I only intervene if he goes after my husband....
After all, he is a baby dinosaur with a weapon on his head! LOL

Great Footos!

Her is what I see: Mild dryness, with some peeling (scale, especially near the nail). Scaley skin usually has more than one cause beyond the natural shedding process. However ekkies are particularly prone to that imbalance and irritation which can lead to self mutiliation (often not enough vitamin A and biotin). The chewing of the tip of the nail could be just her natural way of telling you she wants some spa time but just to be safe I know what you fed your bird, down to a science and it is fantastic. I would definitely try to integrate more of these items:
Cooked Sweet potato (not yams)
Cooked carrots
Cooked pumpkin or Squashes (as mentioned the BEST squash for ekkies is butternut)
Sweet red peppers
Mangoes
Papaya (also has digestive enzymes)
I would make this mash/chopped mixture and mix it in with the pellets- you may be able to hide it! or at least she will have to dig the whole pellet out of the mixture.

Also Look for things with Biotin and calcium- now Roudybush does have D3, calcium and biotin, but not a lot of vitamin A: Hard boiled egg has biotin, shell has calcium and also vitamin A (eggs also have protein and vitamin D ). All these items are necessary for feather, beak and nail health. Now I dont normally use red palm oil, but it is in fact high in vitamin A and palatable. Try mixing just a touch with some warm crushed egg

Best thing to help with that molting skin is warm water... I had a CAG for a short time who overpreened his nails and around the metatarsal pad (not bubblefoot- but just a very unhappy bird). So I took a very large sheet pan and lined it with a cloth towel. I put him in.... let him walk around while he got treats. Day 2 I made the towel damp. Day 3 I actually made the warm water 1cm deep... sooner or later he actually took puddle baths.

Towards the nails I sometimes put the smallest smear of unrefined coconut oil. I dont like using aloe as it can actually create a 'crust' and cause more irritation. The smallest amount shouldnt be a problem- but too much can actually get on feathers, etc.

- I would consider allergy as well as many ekkies are prone to allergy.
To combat this safely in all ekkies and without artificial medication I grow Moringa and serve holy basil tea. Moringa is a natural plant which is a H1 antihistamine (non drowsy) and mast cell stabilizer as well as holy basil. I offer the fresh leaves on top of the chop. If you want- I can send you some seeds? germinates very quickly, grows fast, and has a flavor they really enjoy.

I would love some moringa seeds! I've been itchy about spring and milling around the garden to see where I can put new plants. I'll pm my address. I have a lovely basil relative that is purple and smells good, it's shockingly resilient, and makes it look like I'm good at growing things. I'm happy to share! It's not medicinal, but it's beautiful.

That's a treasure trove of ideas! Thank you so much for all your help! I will raid my mother's sheet pans, and try things all weekend!

 

[mythic55]

No problem!
I can drop them in the post tomorrow
The seeds are quite large, it grows like bamboo- but if you keep it trimmed it works out nicely

 

[Rain Bow]

I don't know a ton about diet for Ekkies, that being said Wiki says they can have Banana's. Banana's like Papaya are good for digestion in parrots.

I was going to say allergy or behavioural too.

I know w/ certain types of parrots that diets too high in sugar can trigger things like hormonal & even aggressive behaviour. I've read that this can also trigger things like barbering & self mutilation especially in rescue birds. I'm not sure w/ Ekkie's this applies because the diet seems to be based more on sugar than anything due to the high consumption of fruits.

@mythic55 interested in your thought of, a scrambled egg (1 egg, no milk) w/ some dried red hot pepper mixed in before cooking? I'm wondering if the healing aspect of capsaicin might help this situation.

 

[Monaco]

I don't know a ton about diet for Ekkies, that being said Wiki says they can have Banana's. Banana's like Papaya are good for digestion in parrots.

I was going to say allergy or behavioural too.

I know w/ certain types of parrots that diets too high in sugar can trigger things like hormonal & even aggressive behaviour. I've read that this can also trigger things like barbering & self mutilation especially in rescue birds. I'm not sure w/ Ekkie's this applies because the diet seems to be based more on sugar than anything due to the high consumption of fruits.

@mythic55 interested in your thought of, a scrambled egg (1 egg, no milk) w/ some dried red hot pepper mixed in before cooking? I'm wondering if the healing aspect of capsaicin might help this situation.

Oddly enough, I'm curious about the capsaicin too. I've been adding cayenne and turmeric to the canary's food, and his appetite for greens is exponentially higher with better looking poops. Yesterday and today I added the same to monaco's breakfast. She frequently gets turmeric, but the cayenne is new. I'm making a new batch of "bread" with banana and papaya tonight with quinoa and oat flour and extra egg. I also squeezed orange juice over her food this morning because she has been refusing citrus for a while. Another oddity today is she didn't eat her grapes. Just the mash I made with sweet potato, wild rice, sprouts and yellow potato (around the pellets, of course!)

If the bread cooks well, I will share the recipe. It's a new experiment.

 

[Monaco]

I meant to add that she didn't attack the pellets yesterday, had some and left about half. She didn't eat any today, just picked out some safflower seeds from her treat bowl and left the almond AND the cashew pieces... Very out of character. She got extra egg white when she nearly jumped off the cage when I walked by with MY snack.

 

[mythic55]

@Rain Bow

Eggs are extremely beneficial containing all the essential amino acids (essential amino acid is one where the body cannot manufacture it on its own- it must be consumed), calcium, protein and cholesterol; many people dont know, but cholesterol is actually essential for brain function. Recently researchers found that eggs are actually something like 15% lower in fat and the yolk is one of the only sources of vitmin D (60% more than originally thought in the 90's).

In the wild, bird will in fat consume their own eggs, and the eggs of other birds. When I was studying Australian finches it was interesting to see how many of them would sacrifice their eggs when there was not an adequate amount of insects.

I prefer eggs hard boiled my reasoning is as such: The entire eggs is valuable and during cooking hard boiled it is self contained and cooked evenly and variably slowly.

* Absorption: Much like anything- what something is 'cooked in' often becomes partially absorbed: so if you cook it in a pan, whatever is in the pan (soap, oils, food residue) is partially absorbed. HOWEVER; boiled in a shell: the membrane is EXTREMELY high in vital nutrients (I and V collagen, glucosamine, chondroitin , hyaluronic acid) which are all important for joint health.

* Temperature: hard boiled egg is a even, slower cooking method that does have 'hot spots'. Cooking an egg in a pan, the egg may become 'crispy' on the edges or a percentage may end up burned, in which case it loses a lot of its nutritional content as protein becomes replaced with 'ash'.


@Monaco

That is actually great news! let me know! please share the recipe.

 

[mythic55]

Hot peppers:

Hot peppers have a wealth of health not yet fully understood:
The pros: high in vital nutrients that birds require (and red ones have high soluble vit A), known to reduce inflammation and equalize the body.
The cons: hot peppers can reduce appetite. So- birds might eat less of other nutritious items.

How are they best served? fresh of course. When hot peppers are cooked (or in the drying process- which is commercially usually utilizes heat) they lose some of their nutritional content. Some of the best peppers will be the spiciest: Thai chilis (with their bright red coloration meaning they contain higher amount of beta carotein than green peppers). Also the hotter the pepper the more capsaicin.

So with this in consideration, the best types of peppers will be thai chilis, cayenne, schotch bonnet, red bell (even though they are not red)
Lower in value would be serano, habenero, poblano, shishizzo

I should note that many believe that ekkies should not have an overage of hot peppers. I have been doing some research to confirm/debunk this but its not completed to date. I currently give fresh Red Thai Chilis to my guys in foraging, but not in the food directly.