How to react?

[Sodapop&Co.]

I'm trying to figure out what the right reaction on my part is when I ask Phoenix to step up and she hisses + threatens to bite. It seems counterproductive somehow to just stop when she does that, but maybe I just get that feeling because I'm more used to working with other animals. Is taking her "no" and backing off the correct reaction? Then what do I do? What if I need her to step up - like if something dangerous is going to be used in the room and I need to move her to a safe place?
If someone can spell this out for me I'd really appreciate it. The two of us are doing quite well together - have made lots of progress - but this particular thing I'm having a hard time with as she refuses to step up quite often and whether either of us like it or not she still relies on being transported quite a bit. Her previous human said to just insist/corner her into stepping up but I'm not certain if that's the right way to go.
TIA!

 

[Tiel Feathers]

Can you reward her with millet when she steps up? Maybe try bribing her so she won’t hiss first. Do this a few times, several times a day and maybe she will stop hissing. If it’s important that she step up right away, then go ahead and insist, but otherwise try to get her to do it happily.

 

[Sodapop&Co.]

Can you reward her with millet when she steps up? Maybe try bribing her so she won’t hiss first. Do this a few times, several times a day and maybe she will stop hissing. If it’s important that she step up right away, then go ahead and insist, but otherwise try to get her to do it happily.

Thanks for the reply! She's not big on working for treats and specifically dislikes being lured into stepping up for reasons unknown to me. I've worked on target training but if she has to move more than a couple steps to reach it she just won't... Maybe I need to keep looking for a treat that she really loves; right now I kinda just have stuff that she goes "eh ok I'll eat it" when I offer. I think you're right though that I need to keep working on stepping up for a reward and making being on my hand a nice experience for her, not just a way to get from point A to B.
I'm mainly trying to figure out what to do in the instance that she does hiss. Do I retreat and try again with treats (it feels like that would be teaching her to hiss/act aggressively but idk) or is it better to just stop in that scenario and try again later going straight to using treats.

 

[Monaco]

Occasionally I have the same problem with Monaco. I've had to use a perch to force her to step onto so I wouldn't get bitten. She's mad for quite a while after those. She also hates that stick.

 

[dollfish]

In my opinion it isn't wrong to respect the emotion and back off. Also insisting to the point of biting makes biting a "thing" in my opinion. I avoid anything with Astro that would escalate the situation to that point so that biting is never even in his repertoire. Have you tried going for higher value treats?

During the day if you ask Phoenix to step up rabdomly and putting her right back down might help her view stepping up as a usual thing and not a thing that usually displaces her.

 

[Tiel Feathers]

If she’s not into treats, maybe try another type of reward like over the top praise. Another thing you can try is when you’re asking her to step up, distract her from hissing by doing something at the same time, like whistling or bringing out a new toy. This used to work with Twilight once in a while. I would not force her, especially like the previous owner used to do. This is probably why she hisses in the first place. You can also try using your arm or back of your hand, because not every bird likes to step up on a finger. It would be really helpful if you found a treat she loves and saved it only for training.

 

[JLcribber]

If you’re using your hands/fingers for step up, stop doing that. Hands are the ultimate predator to a bird. Offer anything else. Head. Shoulder. Arm. Forearm. Knee. If she has a favourite object (it could be anything. A toy. A shoe etc) offer that instead. There’s got to be something in it for the bird (reward).

If it’s a real emergency you bag em, grab em, whatever’s necessary.

 

[TikkiTembo]

Tikki just Knows when it's bedtime and becomes a hissing, biting, horrible monster! I've been asking him to step up randomly throughout the day, and it has been helping a little. When he steps up, he gets a good minute of scritches. But Tootie has never stepped up, he simply flies away. Like John said, if there was ever an emergency, I'm just grabbing and getting bit!

 

[TikkiTembo]

Oh, and Chipper Only steps up for bologna or cheese. Pamela said to use his favorite forbidden foods for behaviors that are the most difficult for him, and stepping up is hard for him!

 

[Sodapop&Co.]

Thank you so much for the input @all! I'm trying all the things you suggested and I think with more work we can overcome this!

Tikki just Knows when it's bedtime and becomes a hissing, biting, horrible monster! I've been asking him to step up randomly throughout the day, and it has been helping a little. When he steps up, he gets a good minute of scritches. But Tootie has never stepped up, he simply flies away. Like John said, if there was ever an emergency, I'm just grabbing and getting bit!

Phoenix gets the same way in the evenings! But with her it's not that she doesn't want to sleep - on the contrary, she just wants to be left alone to slumber until bedtime. Funny old lady.
I have a couple like Tootie as well - but you can "bargain" with them to go where you need them. Phoenix isn't a confident flyer yet unfortunately.

Oh, and Chipper Only steps up for bologna or cheese. Pamela said to use his favorite forbidden foods for behaviors that are the most difficult for him, and stepping up is hard for him!

Ah so is it ok to feed a little bit of cheese for training? How much cheese is ok to feed as treets? Pheonix would do anything for just a nibble of cheese - she specifically enjoys a nibble of smoked string cheese... That's my next question - what kind of cheese can they eat?

 

[Monaco]

Oh, and Chipper Only steps up for bologna or cheese. Pamela said to use his favorite forbidden foods for behaviors that are the most difficult for him, and stepping up is hard for him!

Did you have a consult with Pam Clark? Mine is this month, and I am very excited about it.

 

[TikkiTembo]

Thank you so much for the input @all! I'm trying all the things you suggested and I think with more work we can overcome this!


Phoenix gets the same way in the evenings! But with her it's not that she doesn't want to sleep - on the contrary, she just wants to be left alone to slumber until bedtime. Funny old lady.
I have a couple like Tootie as well - but you can "bargain" with them to go where you need them. Phoenix isn't a confident flyer yet unfortunately.


Ah so is it ok to feed a little bit of cheese for training? How much cheese is ok to feed as treets? Pheonix would do anything for just a nibble of cheese - she specifically enjoys a nibble of smoked string cheese... That's my next question - what kind of cheese can they eat?

I feed just tiny bits, large enough that he gets the cheese and not my fingers. I just use regular orange cheese.

 

[TikkiTembo]

Did you have a consult with Pam Clark? Mine is this month, and I am very excited about it.

Yes! We did six weeks, and we're chatting again at the end of February for at least another month. I wanted December and January to continue our work. She has helped us understand Chipper so much better, and set more firm boundaries to keep us all sane. She is a no BS woman who is kind and firm and cares for the family as a whole, birds included.

 

[Begone]

Is taking her "no" and backing off the correct reaction?

It really depends on what you believe in.
I never force my girls to anything, but that doesn't mean I can't get them to step up whenever I want to.
In your situation I think the right way is to back off, but also make sure you don't do it the same way again.
I avoid all kinds of negative and aggressive behavior, and also never train them if they not in a good mood. So first get them in happy training mod, then offer their favorite treat. So put some energy in finding out what her favorite treat are.
You got great advice from @Tiel Feathers already so try them.

What if I need her to step up - like if something dangerous is going to be used in the room and I need to move her to a safe place?

When it's come to safety, I have no problem to demand a step up, if that's not working I just grab them in my hands.
Before you do that be prepared that they will bite you, but don't be angry or react in a negative way. They just bite for protection and probably because they are scared.

 

[Lady Jane]

Have you tried teaching your bird to step up on a T stick? @JLcribber has posted a few times about this. I bet it would work!

 

[Sodapop&Co.]

It really depends on what you believe in.
I never force my girls to anything, but that doesn't mean I can't get them to step up whenever I want to.
In your situation I think the right way is to back off, but also make sure you don't do it the same way again.
I avoid all kinds of negative and aggressive behavior, and also never train them if they not in a good mood. So first get them in happy training mod, then offer their favorite treat. So put some energy in finding out what her favorite treat are.
You got great advice from @Tiel Feathers already so try them.

When it's come to safety, I have no problem to demand a step up, if that's not working I just grab them in my hands.
Before you do that be prepared that they will bite you, but don't be angry or react in a negative way. They just bite for protection and probably because they are scared.

Thank you so much for your help! What you say makes a lot of sense to me and I think I can keep working with her to better understand each other. I did some lowkey training with her just now, mainly focusing on communicating and understanding each other and she is definitely a lot happier when she understands that I won't force her into doing something against her will. The main thing I want for her, even before being friendly with me, is to be a confident independent bird. So if she says no it's no. Taking away her freedom to make choices is exactly what I don't want. We will keep working! I have high hopes of a good relationship in our future.

Have you tried teaching your bird to step up on a T stick? @JLcribber has posted a few times about this. I bet it would work!

That's a good idea but I think my little Tiel would be more mad/scared about that than asking with hand/arm (btw she does seem to have something against hands - I think it's that when she sees them she expects to be immediately forced into stepping up).
Also I should have specified that Phoenix isn't a young bird or a wild/untrained bird - she's ten years old, has been in a bad/neglectful/abusive situation before (from what I've been told), and her last owner gave her and her friend up because of lack of time but it would seem to me she was a part of family life from the way she acts. I guess they just missed working on the couple problems that arise.

 

[JLcribber]

Have you tried teaching your bird to step up on a T stick? @JLcribber has posted a few times about this. I bet it would work!

Thanks for mentioning it but really it’s meant for big birds that are truly hard to handle and a tool is really the only option. A cockatiel isn’t big enough or mean enough to require one IMO. It’s the hands that are a problem.

That's a good idea but I think my little Tiel would be more mad/scared about that than asking with hand/arm (btw she does seem to have something against hands

You will be surprised how quickly she starts to come around with some valuable rewards and you quit using “your hands”. There is no real reason you must touch your bird (other than an emergency of course).

Scummo lived his whole life with me (24 yrs). As tame and loving as any bird. I never touched him with my hands his entire life. No hesitation jumping on the elbow.

 

[Sodapop&Co.]

Thanks for mentioning it but really it’s meant for big birds that are truly hard to handle and a tool is really the only option. A cockatiel isn’t big enough or mean enough to require one IMO. It’s the hands that are a problem.


You will be surprised how quickly she starts to come around with some valuable rewards and you quit using “your hands”. There is no real reason you must touch your bird (other than an emergency of course).

Scummo lived his whole life with me (24 yrs). As tame and loving as any bird. I never touched him with my hands his entire life. No hesitation jumping on the elbow.

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Aw what a cutie I like that idea for some birds, and that's pretty much how my budgie bois choose to live, but I don't think it's what Phoenix needs. It's not like she's terrified of hands or people and she usually steps up happily and willingly. She feels safe enough on me to climb all over me and even grab a quick nap while sitting on me. It's just that at times she feels worried when I try to move her and I think we can overcome that by showing her that she can always return. Actually. Puzzling through it now, I expect you're right and I should stop messing with her so much. Give her a chance to do her own thing and only move her when I do need to. Hmm. I'll keep training, mainly with a perch/object other than me, but I think apart from that I'll strive to give her more space. I want her to be independent but I'm still expecting her to want me to help her get places; that's a problem. I'll set up more safe places for her and make sure she can make her way around well and see how it goes. Thanks. I'm thinking about it from a new angle now.

 

[Laurie]

Lot's of great advice has been given. I'll just add one thing.

Think about the thing you do with her once she does step up, first a treat, then what?

Is it something she likes or not.

I once got in the habit of letting my parrotlet play independently while I was busy and inadvertently only had him step up to go back to his cage. Before I even realized what was happening he was running away and absolutely not ever stepping up. I was frustrated and confused. Most of the time stepping up should lead to something that was better then what she was doing before and those few times it doesn't should lead to big rewards.

I would also say let's go back rather than step up if I was taking him back to his cage. It seemed to help.

With my caiques, they get a whole nut for returning to their cages, which is way, way more than any other single treat they get. Sometimes they fly straight to their cage when they see me get the nuts, other times they refuse to step up or fly away. It just depends how badly they want to stay out.

Keep trying you'll work it out.

Tiny bits of nuts, sunflower seed, grapes or even juice can be high value rewards.

 

[Leih]

I definitely had to "desensitize" my lovebird to my hands. She was completely terrified of humans when I got her. She was 5 months old, but a little over a year later she loves to sit on my hand and get scritches. You've gotten lots of great advice already, but I just wanted to mention how I worked with my lovebird about stepping up. I would offer treats and change where I put it on my hand so eventually she'd have to step on me to get it. This took months, but we went totally at her pace. An open hand is suuuuper scary so once she was willing to take a treat from my open hand, it was a milestone. For a long time she wouldn't step up without being offered a treat, and even now to go back in her cage she requires a "fee." I really don't mind, it's just our exchange and our routine. But after awhile she started just hopping onto my hand or flying to me without me even asking sometimes so it definitely shifted once she really trusted me. Of course, every bird is different and some never allow being handled. I have two linnies who are super hand shy and are not interested in training. They actually get mad and yell at me if I get my hands too close! In an emergency I definitely have had to just grab them. I hate it but they seem to accept that I'm not trying to hurt them. Or so I think. Let us know how it goes!