Urgent How many times to have anaesthesia?

[fanta2424]

Hello everyone,

Hope you are all doing well.
So during Christmas had an emergency with one of my tiels suspecting egg bounding ... She went under anaesthesia for an x-ray, found out there was no egg just her normal lipoma causing troubles. The lipoma is from a previous incident but it is being monitored. The problem is that the x-ray showed a problem in the lungs and fatty liver. She is receiving support for the liver at the moment but to find out more we had to take blood so she went under anaesthesia again a couple of days after the first one. Due to low blood pressure, the vet was unable to take enough blood for biochemistry tests, so she will have to go under anaesthesia again on Monday. She is at an emergency vet at the moment who is a specialist.

When she was under treatment with her normal avian, she went under anaesthesia again in May for simple blood tests that came out fine and in August for implant to stop her from breeding and control her hormones and fatty liver. She is going to have the new implant in January as well so another anaesthesia will be needed.
Her normal vet shared the blood results with her emergency vet but these didn't include any biochemistry analysis. The emergency vet has been really busy today so we didn't have much time to talk. She is at the hospital at the moment and they will not do any anaesthesia or whatever... But I don't know what to do?!
We need the blood tests with biochemistry thingy to find out what is happening with her lungs as she had some respiratory issues in May and we have issues again... maybe they are not related... but... I don't know... I cannot keep on having her under anaesthesia... but I want to find out what is happening but I don't want to cause much damage. On the top of this, her normal vet is away so there is no option of having a second opinion. Any opinions welcome.Thanks

PS Tiel's Age:11 y.o.

 

[enigma731]

I think that's fine and it's important to get the tests. My understanding is that anesthesia risk only goes up if there isn't enough time in between for the drugs to leave the system, for example needing two emergency surgeries in the same day.

 

[fanta2424]

I see... so she had one today and having another one on Monday should be fine.. The vet is an exotics specialist and he seems pretty confident with this... The implant thingy with her avian could wait anyway if needed... well it's needed but... the avian will also tell us what he thinks when he comes back from his leave.
The x-ray showed a few things going on with her organs, so the specialist said we need the biochemistry to see exactly what is happening, he also talked about endoscopy in the case the test doesn't show anything but we both want to avoid it due to the high risk... even though he seems confident... I don't doubt their skills, both vets look well qualified and knowledgeable but I am scared... How do you balance risk in this situation as she looks fine on the outside... I guess we do need the tests...

 

[enigma731]

Anesthesia always has some risk but I don't think having two several days apart makes the risk any higher, does that make sense?

What symptoms is she having that prompted this workup?

 

[fanta2424]

She was unable to defecate so we suspected she's egg bound and had an x-ray that actually showed that this was not the case but it did show the rest of the problems, including a problem in the lungs, fatty liver and not sure about the kidney... can't remember. Her examinations in May and August were fine though and the problem in the lungs might be due to an infection but we need to know whether it's due to a bacteria or aspergilliosis etc. Also need to monitor the fatty liver which can also be part due to her hormones as she wants to breed and her implant needs renewal. So we need to see what is happening with the liver, is it just the hormones or something more?

She is defecating fine at the moment, this was the first thing the specialist treated with meds... Sometimes she does hold it in when she thinks she has an egg in her tummy, she gets confused whether it's an egg or faeces that come out and holds everything in. In the past when she couldn't hold any longer she would end up throwing eggs on the floor from 1m height with faeces on or defecating in her nest and she would always go to a vet/hospital to be monitored while laying. So now she might have confused the fat with an egg, she might have been constipated?! I don't know... we do monitor this as well to find out if it's behavioural like in the past or if she has an organic issue. Maybe this is where the kidneys come to play?! She did show interest in nesting lately.

In the past she had a huge abnormal egg, almost double the normal size , pretty rare case, that damaged her lower abdominal muscle while her old vet was removing it physically to save her, so this might be a reason she gets confused as she doesn't control that muscle. That damaged muscle has turned into a lipoma now... I am worried about that too but there is no way it can be removed so we keep on monitoring... She has it for 9 years now.

She's on Harrison's and quality seeds and also some exact pellets and versele laga pellets and nutri berries as treats with her food. She's good with her veg but she doesn't like to fly around much, never did. She is good climbing though. Last weight 100gr but she is away from home now and stopped eating much... At least they feed her and look after her. It looks like there are a lot going on but it might be an infection and hormones but only the tests will show some hints...

 

[sunnysmom]

I hope your tiel will be okay.

 

[Monica]

I feel like I've been lucky... as my vet does not put a but under anesthesia to draw blood... and has yet to do so for X-Rays.

It does seem like a lot but you kind of need to weigh the pros vs the cons. Is it worth it trying to make sure she's healthy? Or would it be better to just leave her "as is" and hope for the best? If she's only 11 years old, she's still "pretty young", relatively speaking! My first cockatiel is 18 1/2 years old. I hope she makes it to 20+, but would be shocked if she managed to make it into her 30's! (some cockatiels have)


Please keep us updated on her!

 

[enigma731]

Only you can tell for sure, but it sounds to me like it would be worth doing the tests. Can you clarify with the vet whether they're doing full gas anesthesia or just drug sedation? There's a difference in risk level there so it's worth the clarification.

 

[fanta2424]

I am not sure what type of aneasthesia she comes out of it after 15 min. It's weird but I was told she was doing great the last 3 days and we needed these tests to find out a problem before we see actual signs of illness etc. and today I was told she has lost 9 grams despite being hand fed. Also weird, I was told that they would stop hand feeding because she is eating more by the nurse but the specialist vet said they haven't stopped and she is not eating. It's hard to control your temper when you don't hear consistent things and you are stressed already. Was told the specialist will try to take to the blood samples today at 1430, after she is fed and thinks that the reason she has lost weight might be her liver. 5-6 months ago, her blood tests with her avian were remarkable and nothing has changed in her diet etc. Nana was never 91grams in her entire life, she was always overweight... even 100grams was one of her lowest weights ever... Maybe she does have issues with the liver... I'm exhausted with all this, just want her back and healthy... ;(

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

I am sorry you’re going through all of this I would make a record of everything they say and get a copy of her records when it is all through

 

[enigma731]

Recovering in 15 minutes is almost certainly reversible drug sedation rather than gas anesthesia. But you can still push for clarification on that and should. I'm sorry their communication hasn't been more consistent.

 

[fanta2424]

I am sorry you’re going through all of this I would make a record of everything they say and get a copy of her records when it is all through

thank you. they will need to send everything to my vet anyway so he has the full record...

 

[fanta2424]

she made it through the third anaesthesia... however, again no blood samples so we are just proceeding with antibiotics and liver protector until Monday when her vet will be back... Hopefully she will stop losing weight.

 

[enigma731]

Why no samples?

 

[fanta2424]

Why no samples?

So Nana had a low blood pressure and the vet couldn't take enough blood out to use for the tests. I have no idea really... this is what I was told, I 'm not a vet . Also, I was told I would be given a liver protector and antibiotics as the x-ray showed problem with the liver and lungs, maybe an infection or something. However, I got only Lactulose and denamarin protexin. My partner picked her up, the specialist vet was not available to talk at that moment, so he took whatever he was given. Plus, the state I got her back was appalling. She had melted food all over her face and beak and was fluffed up. I've never seen her so messy, dirty and ugly. She's always preening herself. She even had food residues on her nostrils. However, she did show some signs she was not breathing properly when I got her back. I thought it would be because she is breathing only from one nostril so let her rest. She removed the food from the nostril herself, but I can still see she's not breathing perfectly fine like she is supposed to and she is more lethargic than normal. Still moves around her aviary a lot, walking not flying (have platforms all around), she is eating well, so she put on 2 grams the first day I got her back, haven't weighted her today again, but she's not happy and I can tell there's something wrong with her breathing. On Monday she's seeing her normal vet. The emergency vet must have been good, I can't comment on that really, it's more the other staff at the hospital that looked after her that worry me. They didn't even bother to clean her face after feeding her. She came back and you could clearly see signs of PTSD, she was always upset when staying in hospitals but never like that. I have an oxygen concetrator and a nebuliser. Also have F10 but think her salbutamol (from a treatment she did some while ago with her avian) has expired, do you think it would be any helpful at all to do a treatment with F10?
Now she's having 0.25ml of Lactulose twice a day and 0.1ml of denamarin.
it's so frustrating to see her unwell, she was always happy and now I can see something is wrong but don't know what. You can see sadness in her eyes and the breathing problem she shows signs of, is subtle but I know her too well. Everyone says she is looking fine but so little they know.
The specialist told me she can eat anything, so I gave brussel sprouts to help the liver, what else can I do until Monday. I cancelled all work to stay at home with her but she is not interested at all and she doesn't even want me to talk to her... So unlike her... Nana and I share a special connection... especially when she was unwell... Now she is so distant that I am worrying even more about her health. I don't want her to go back to the emergency vet as she hated this place and was deteriorating there. She doesn't look bad, but she's not herself if it makes sense. They said there is nothing more they can do other than give her the meds that I am giving her at home anyway and handfed her. Worst come to worst I can handfeed her myself and know that it's more gentle and coming from someone whom she trusts. Would it be ok to just wait for the avian to come back? Ofcourse if anything happens I will rush her back to the emergency... what do you think ?
Thank you ever so much guys.

 

[fanta2424]

So editing the above... I was told I would be given lactulose or she was given lactulose while she was in there so I got confused. My partner was administering the meds so I didn't even look at them the first day. She is given this denamarin 0.1ml a day and 0.25ml of synulox twice a day which is her antibiotic. We do have lactulose to administer if she is unable to pass droppings (0.1ml 3 times a day) but we haven't given any to her, not needed. Sorry for the confusion with the meds. However, do you think would it be ok if I do use f10? Is there any other support I can provide? She is indoors, temp 21-22 degrees Celsius at the moment. I do have an issue with the temp, it's usually around 22-23. Thanks a lot.

 

[Tiel Feathers]

I’m sorry I can’t give you any advise regarding your poor bird, but I hope and pray she’ll be okay. Sending big hugs to you.

 

[enigma731]

@Hankmacaw can probably comment on the F10

 

[Hankmacaw]

F10 is widely used throughout the world to nebulize birds. Especially in England for aspergillosis and in the Mideast for their falconry. I have nebulized both of my GWs with F10 for aspergillosis and although F10 has a very good reputation with Asper, I didn't have any success with it.

You can go ahead and try it - there would be no harm to your baby.

 

[Monica]

It sounds like the vet is doing what they can to help her out. The labored breathing *might* be due to enlarged liver causing pressure on her air sacs. I imagine the oxygen concentrator may help a little.

You could also add milk thistle extract (alcohol free) to her water, which can also support her liver. Best to ask the vet about this first to be sure it wouldn't be an issue with the meds she's currently on.