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Discipline/punishment. Just bad advice.

ArthursMom

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You dont. I recommend reading Barbara Heidenreich's Parrot Problem Solver to learn more. ANYONE who thinks any type of punishment is needed to work with a bird is WRONG, and needs to read that book ASAP.

Parrot Books | Parrot Training Books

You ignore the bad, or take them away from the situation(or take the situation away from the bird) that causes them to be naughty, and praise good behavior. With prey animals such as birds, they learn MUCH BETTER and faster when using positive reinforcement. Punishment does NOT work longterm and it barely works short term. Whether verbal or physical. The end result is usually a phobic bird, skittish bird, or a bird who is going to feel all its flight instinct to run from the scary punishment is gone and it'll go out on the offensive and it'll learn that in order for it to stop the evil human from being so cruel is to bite bite bite. Punishment, whether verbal or physical is a horrible way to train any animal especially a bird.

This is a huge reason why you see big aggressive parrots. They have been taught (although accidentally from ignorant humans) to bite to be on the offense when IT feels threatened. And typically a bird like this can be very unruly and "unpredictable" and hard to read.

Yelling or pointing fingers at them, giving mean looks, slapping and spankings, etc, does not work. All these things are human ways, and birds do not understand it. You cannot train a bird effectively when using punishment.
I would just be so angry if i saw a person slap their bird, even with huge macaws its still unacceptable!!! I usually whisper to my screaming macaw and after a few minutes <sometimes about 20 mins>he starts to whisper back.
My soon to be ex husband had me give my OWA to my parents when he was in his 30's due to screaming, I wept every day and realized that it was the stress of living with my husband that made Loki scream.
As everyone says, birds vocalize, isn't that part of the reason we are so drawn to them?????
 

waterfaller1

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Awesome thread, one which I need to read again when I have more coffee in my system.:)
 

Welshanne

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Our birds who are very noisy do it in the wild both ends of their day as a natural response and that is what we have to accept.
Our hybrid Macaw Chaz is like a kind of alarm system in his own right and will let us know if someone is about to come to the door and ring the bell or just leave something. He is also the first to let us know if there is anything wrong inside or outside the bungalow and it makes us go and investigate and put things right in his little world. :D
 

Quest

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John, although we have never met,
I have a high regard for you. To me
your posts always sound sensible.
You exhibit kindness toward your birds.
I would come to you for advice on caring
for my feathered family. Thanks for your post.
 

JLcribber

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Well thank you very much. :hug8:
 

merlinsmom13

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On this subject, I watched a documentary about a guy raising wild turkeys on Public TV. He really lived w/his little flock & they accepted him. Very interesting program until the end. These turkeys are very smart, they were even playing w/squirrels & other animals. Reminded me of parrots. After some time passed, he was left w/only 1 tom. When the tom attacked him, he picked up a large branch & hit him in the head :mad: Then was puzzled that he never saw him again. :huh: Idiot, sometimes 1 incident can destroy a lifetimes trust. :(
 

dolldid

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i have and will use a spray bottle but i use a fine mist and soft words whill doing so same as when hes being spraide as a shower, he spreads his wings bends down to get his back ,

now i have to all that i have read im a sadest as i have used many ways you all disaprove of ,but in doing so i have always made a game of it to

Im not a beleaver in not showing i disaprove if Mango doessomething I dont like , please dont get me wrong when Mango say attackes me as he did yesterday when i had company in I dont get upset with him I know why he did I was siting to close to them at the table and she my company was talking and her voice got like excited Mango was on her shoulder and divedbomed me flew back to her he nailed me I explained to her why he did it and lo and be hold her voice was lowder and more exvited and i was dived bomed again so i asked her to place Mango in his cage she stood up walked in other room with Mango on her shoulder to his cage he went in , yes im marked but that i can live with i know in his way hes saying danger go but mom im staying cause i like people,,lol

hes never attacked company ,,lol but sure does me if there voice shows change or are to close to me, there is no way
i will ever be upset with him for doing this and i stay calm same when he plays he gets excittd and diveboms me
when i know it can happen i grab a large towel and cover my head shoulders he attacks,,lol flys over me

theres many ways to protect your self birds are wild we open our homes to them so we have to expect things

I never think about things i do as crule to Mango lol i shake my finger at him right close to him i tell him its bad when he dosent lison then pick him up and play
birds will like dogs in many ways pay attention if every thing you do shows love /

you need to know your bird stand in his feet feel how he might think and work from there , to me time out is a waist of time for a bird , i make sure he knows i disaprove not once other than company have i ever placed Mango in his cage
as as you call it punishment i have never placed him on his stand as punishment i will the back of a chair or place him on my shoulder removing him from something , and have to say if i have a teatowel in my hand i have used that but i also play with him with teatowels so he has no fear but knows the difrence when i chase him of something or im near stove

yes disaplin i use crule sadist guess i am in you books but you wont find a more loveable happy contened bird than my Mango

yes many people new reading my ways could abuse what i write but there the ones that dont desirve any pets let alone a bird

i gave up tv raido music many things most couldnt do with out but Mango dosent want it this is his home so in order to make him happy ill do with out

pull me apart be upset with me dont ever chat with me its up to you but i can asure you theres no onecan have or give there bird anymore love affection care freedom than my Mango has or understand them as i do my Mango

ok now ill wait and take the chewing out your going to give me for being me

hugs doll Mango
 

Welshanne

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With you all the way on that one Doll. If any of my crew play me up and rattle my cage the worse thing I can do to punish them is to walk away and even out of their room for awhile. They just hate me leaving them and decide to behave if they want to see more of me! No they are definately not daft and know which side their bread is buttered!:heart:
 

RUESmom

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I am new to bird parenting. MACAW parenting to be exact. Like a dumb ••• I thought that by doing all of my "research" and making contacts that I would be prepared. Talk about stupid. Rue came to my home at 4 months old and I have now had him for a little over 2 months. (I cried after the 3rd day...) Rue is a military macaw and so amazing! I would like to just ask a few questions in regards to his behaviour and have some individual input since the advice I have been given doesn't seem to fit Rues needs. I am now learning about hormones (OMG!) and a bit more about diet. Rue seems to shred more of his food than he actually eats, is this normal? Do babies take time to figure it out? He is not food oriented so "treats" are not an optional reward. I was told that military macaws are not especially affectionate, but this little guy takes the cake! I get hugs, kisses and he loves to play. He comes when I call him, and is learning to talk. We are now experiencing (in the last week or so) his need to communicate seem to be a bit more forceful than normal. He shows me what he wants by mouthing. Eating, sleeping, type of playing or cuddling. He has in the past been gentle but now is quite a biter. I know reaction is not an option, but how to show him when his bites are too hard? I can take him to the pet store and he socializes with people and even a few dogs. He is also not listening as well as he had in the past. Usually I can tell him "no" in response to an unacceptable behaviour and he would shout and stomp away... not so much now. Is this just adolecent behaviour or preview to permanent behaviour? I work graveyard and the only time he is in his cage is at night when I am at work. He has a pretty regular routine and has run of the house. Quite frankly he is very well behaved...except this need to grab hard. Any ideas?
 

waterfaller1

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Hello and welcome to Avian Avenue Jessi and Rue.:hug8: Whoever told you Militaries are not affectionate was wrong. They are wonderful birds, however they are quite beaky. What you are experiencing is a baby macaw that does not understand bite inhibition, so you must teach him. When he bites down too hard, grab his beak gently, and say no bite, or whatever phrase you choose. End the play session and return him to his play stand. He will soon learn to play he must not bite so hard.
Please do not take him to pet stores and places where there are other birds, or trust dogs you do not know around him. Even ones you do know must be closely supervised. An accident, fatal even, can happen in a blink of an eye. Taking him around birds you do not own, have not been quarantined away from, etc, poses a huge risk of him contracting a disease. Have you had your bird to an avian vet for a full work up and wellness check?
Macaws do not eat every bite of food, and yes can be wasteful. In nature they would supply food from the canopy to the ground floor, and by dropping some foods would even help the forest grow. That cannot be avoided, it's part of owning a macaw...most parrots actually.
 

New_Budgie_Owner

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I agree. Even as a new budgie owner with little experience, I think hitting a bird is WAY different than hitting a dog/person. Birds are small and wild animals therefore the outcome is different. EVen if you do punish your birds, I think it can be excessive. How would you like it if as a baby you were spanked EVERY TIME you did something wrong? I think people should be patient and not so quick to smack/punish. The other day, out of sheer nervousness from finger training, my bird bit me. NOw I have budgie so it didn't really hurt but it shocked me a whole lot. So I simply withdrew my hand and tried to slow down a little while training. But hit him? Never! Tats animal abuse! :eek:
 

HowlsOfAngels

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Negative reinforcement in the form of violence is abuse and is an ineffective method of training, even with a dog or a human. The outcome is never desirable for either party and has the potential for physical or psychological damage to one or both participants (willing or unwilling).
 

FidFlock

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This is a great post! Birds scream to communicate, like my Simba. He's not a vocal bird, but he will scream when we come back from the store, volunteer work, softball games, etc. I don't punish him. I just ignore him until he quiets down, as I don't want to reinforce the behavior. I have never once punished my birds, as birds hold a grudge. They are not domesticated like dogs or cats. They don't need human company. You have to earn their company and their trust. Anyone who has owned a bird knows that you don't own a bird. The bird owns you. And you never punish your owner. It just doesn't make sense.
 

Bokkapooh

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This is a great post! Birds scream to communicate, like my Simba. He's not a vocal bird, but he will scream when we come back from the store, volunteer work, softball games, etc. I don't punish him. I just ignore him until he quiets down, as I don't want to reinforce the behavior. I have never once punished my birds, as birds hold a grudge. They are not domesticated like dogs or cats. They don't need human company. You have to earn their company and their trust. Anyone who has owned a bird knows that you don't own a bird. The bird owns you. And you never punish your owner. It just doesn't make sense.
That was a very good post Nikki.

However I'm going to disagree with you on one small point. Any singly-housed bird NEEDS humans around. Especially if its handraised. Even if its anti-social human hating. If a bird partner cannot be found for that bird, it requires daily human interaction. Interaction isnt always physical. But just talking, handing treats, and just being in the room where people are.
 

solo

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i would never dream of punishing my bird ?!? that sounds plain crazy to me :omg:
this is and amazing post
love it!:heart::D
 

bueryion

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Very good advice i got a question 'bout a macaw im looking to adopt, i been visiting the rescue and on female is bonding with me, but gives the death scream a lot.This macaw is a female, she is 20 so definitly all grown up. But I have many, many friends with macaws that dont scream at all. Never. dont get me wrong they talk and squalk a little bit, but never do this death scream thing. This macaw will scream when it sees me, then automatically hold its foot out to step up with out me even asking, then head bob and weave it head around on my arm take treats n play games.... and then it will start pinching( drawing blood) and i got to put her down. then the scream and eye pinning starts. she goes from extreme affection to hostility.... can you give me tips on how to interact positivly once she steps up?? whats good training to stop the scream??
 

Monica

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First, you need to figure out why she's screaming.

Once you figure out why she is screaming, you need to figure out a way to approach or interact with her that will not result in screaming. Maybe her doing a specific behavior instead of screaming?


Rather than focusing on what you *DON'T* want her to do, instead focus on what you *DO* want her to do.
 

ArtBird

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That's it in a nutshell. :)
Boy- I think I "lucked out" with the way I raised my Ki....without knowing anything about birds.

Being that, ....I loved him with all my heart, listened to him, watched him and learned his natural reactions, was conscious of being extremely gentle in my movements with him, ignored him when he was naughty or alarmed, esp. around other people, to where he learned that people were interesting and fun, and now he is not afraid of people at all. Lucky I gently touched every part of him, and played with him and let him win over my fingers, and grab my hands, and learn that always, hands are gentle, and used to play and step on, and direct. Yeah...lucky. Lucky he got kissed every time he was picked up, and learned that faces and mouths are sweet and gentle places of good affection, snuggle places, safe places. lucky he learned he could safely grab my fingers, and gently chew rub lick or push any of my fingers away, as a form of communication that would be listened to. Lucky? Lucky I spent all that time "being" loving. Lucky I had a heart and used it.

Whenever I read about a bird being abused or punished, I kiss Ki's tummy, and tell him how loved he is, and I thank the universe for him, and his soft downy kissable belly, and his happy squinty-eyed face that chirps softy when he is kissed.


Slapping a bird? Throwing it in a dark closet? throwing it down or away? Caging and ignoring for 12-23 hours per day? Abuse. pulling, pinching, smacking tail, wings, beak...these are ABUSIVE behaviors...call them what they are. This is not training. It's abuse. It causes harm. People who use these behaviors on birds will justify it, and find a way to view it as ok. They will avoid reading these threads, and avoid talking about what they are really doing, lest it be called into question.

Does the Golden Rule not apply to other life forms? Would you put your 2-yr old child in a dark closet when he/she cries too loud? Sadly, there are some people who would. And, when the rest of us find out, we take the child away to a safe place, and put the abuser in jail.

I wish the laws governing animal abuse were more clearly and sensitively made. There is a vast enormous difference between training/teaching and punishing. Punishment is just another word for abuse. Clear.
 

Monica

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Done right, a bird can be "punished" without abusing the bird.

Discipline used to mean something else entirely. Someone who had good discipline was one that studied hard. They may have even been a disciple of an art.


In regards to training, there is negative and positive punishment. Negative punishment is withdrawing a reward (something positive) for when a bird has done something that we don't like. Positive punishment is adding something to the mixture to decrease a behavior. This could be something as simple as a squirt bottle to quiet down a screaming bird.



Parrot & Bird Training Terminology | Good Bird Training
 
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