Discipline/punishment. Just bad advice.

[Chicklet]

great post John, I 100% agree with everything you've said and although I've never owned dogs, I've seen far to many people treat birds like "pretty talking dogs"

 

[Saemma]

Haven't see the other thread but LOVE your post!!

 

[rikkitikki]

I need to bookmark this. As a dog owner preparing for her first bird, I need to make a conscience effort to keep some of the points you've made about the differences between dog and bird at the forefront of my mind. Thank you.

 

[Jally]

As a mom to an autistic child, I've had to dig a bit deeper into my mom brain to find solutions for why my son behaved the way he did. He's now 16 so a lot of the issues we had when he was little do not apply any more. But, anyway, in this experience I have learned a lot about behavior modification and positive reinforcement. A lot that I learned, I now apply to my birds.

I met a lady a few weeks ago that has a cockatoo. She told me that having a too was basically like have a special needs child. In reality, I think having a bird of any species is like that. And even some dogs.

Like Dr. Phil says, it takes a thousand "atta boys" to undo one bad comment or act. Those of us who have phobic birds know that this is so true.

 

[JLcribber]

I met a lady a few weeks ago that has a cockatoo. She told me that having a too was basically like have a special needs child. In reality, I think having a bird of any species is like that. And even some dogs.

That's a pretty accurate analogy.

Like Dr. Phil says, it takes a thousand "atta boys" to undo one bad comment or act. Those of us who have phobic birds know that this is so true.

Very true. It takes a very small amount of time to create a problem and it takes forever to fix it.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Can we please have this stickied?

 

[CeddysMum]

Hi John, great post as always! Thank you so much for throwing it out here!!!

I have one thing to add or comment though. I am aware that with just one bird/pet at a time I'm not the most experienced and maybe I've just been lucky with my adopted animals but my first and foremost priority in teaching them acceptable behaviour has been to learn their body language and their respective instinctive reactions/behaviours. With my German Shepherd dog I tried to understand his pack and predatory behaviour, with Ceddy I try to understand her flock and 'prey' reactions.

This always in the hope that I'd be able to anticipate unwanted behaviour before it actually happens and correct it by channelling it into 'good' behaviour instead. If I 'miss', it is my fault not the animal's and I have to find a way to correct myself in order to teach the animal. So far, I seem to be successful with this approach, fingers crossed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that birds and dogs are not really all THAT different in that, IMHO, it is necessary to learn about their natural instincts as well as individual personalities to effectively teach them how I want them to act/react (I don't actually like the word 'training') while at the same time allowing them to be who they are.

'Punishment' doesn't work to do that with any animal, punishment suppresses it's instincts and personality, it doesn't work 'with' it in order to modify behaviour.

OK, off my soap box now. I have no idea if any of that makes sense I know what I mean

 

[HungryBird]

Oooh you have a White GSD?!?! We had a beautiful black one for years. She was the most intelligent dog I have had and very protective. Probably a bit too protective. My mother has a black and tan now who is a sweetie. I was thinking about getting another black one in a few years.

I think GSDs in particular need a very firm hand. Do you find your dog more intelligent than your bird or your bird more intelligent than your dog? I find my dog to be much more intelligent. I suppose there must be different ways to measure intelligence for dog and for birds.

I am curious as to how people on this board discipline their birds. Is it all verbal? I usually verbally admonish my birds if they are chewing on something they shouldn't by just saying "Leave that alone Iggy!" and they will stop chewing. The only one of my birds that bites is Iggy and she has never drawn my blood though she did rip into my boyfriends hand one time. Squeaky sometimes lightly nibbles me arm but has never bitten me. He has also drawn blood from my boyfriend though.

What do you do with a real biter? How do you discipline them? Obviously if a cockatiel bites you it hurts but if a macaw bites you people will start calling you Four Fingered Joe. So when you have a huge bird with a very powerful beak what steps do you take to ensure you won't be badly injured? Obviously you can't hit the bird or lock it away.

I would be hesitant to divert attention with a treat. I don't do that with my dogs or my birds. My dog is trained to drop anything on command but I never taught him by offering him something else if he dropped what he had. I wanted him to know that when I say "Drop it" he should drop it no matter what. He is also trained not to touch chicken bones on the street, which is very useful.

 

[Renae]

I am glad this has been stickied!

Fantastic thread, I hope many more people will read this, especially people that are new to owning birds or people that want to get a bird/birds.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I am curious as to how people on this board discipline their birds.

You dont. I recommend reading Barbara Heidenreich's Parrot Problem Solver to learn more. ANYONE who thinks any type of punishment is needed to work with a bird is WRONG, and needs to read that book ASAP.

http://www.goodbirdinc.com/parrot-store-books.html

You ignore the bad, or take them away from the situation(or take the situation away from the bird) that causes them to be naughty, and praise good behavior. With prey animals such as birds, they learn MUCH BETTER and faster when using positive reinforcement. Punishment does NOT work longterm and it barely works short term. Whether verbal or physical. The end result is usually a phobic bird, skittish bird, or a bird who is going to feel all its flight instinct to run from the scary punishment is gone and it'll go out on the offensive and it'll learn that in order for it to stop the evil human from being so cruel is to bite bite bite. Punishment, whether verbal or physical is a horrible way to train any animal especially a bird.

This is a huge reason why you see big aggressive parrots. They have been taught (although accidentally from ignorant humans) to bite to be on the offense when IT feels threatened. And typically a bird like this can be very unruly and "unpredictable" and hard to read.

Yelling or pointing fingers at them, giving mean looks, slapping and spankings, etc, does not work. All these things are human ways, and birds do not understand it. You cannot train a bird effectively when using punishment.

 

[JLcribber]

What do you do with a real biter? How do you discipline them? Obviously if a cockatiel bites you it hurts but if a macaw bites you people will start calling you Four Fingered Joe. So when you have a huge bird with a very powerful beak what steps do you take to ensure you won't be badly injured? Obviously you can't hit the bird or lock it away.

You avoid the bite altogether in the way you handle them. Using a T stick to move/travel from one place to another. Not putting your flesh in the target zone. Reading and understanding their body language so you can see the bite coming.

It's all about how "you" handle them. Once in a while when "you" screw up you get a bite. Amazing incentive to not screw up.

 

[Bokkapooh]

You avoid the bite altogether in the way you handle them. Using a T stick to move/travel from one place to another. Not putting your flesh in the target zone. Reading and understanding their body language so you can see the bite coming.

It's all about how "you" handle them. Once in a while when "you" screw up you get a bite. Amazing incentive to not screw up.

Yep! Avoid the bite, avoid the scream, avoid allowing the bird near a wall so it can chew on it, etc. You can do things that allows the bird to not be presented in the situation to be naughty. And if it gets into 'trouble' you need to take it out of the situation(or remove and avoid the situation altogether) in a calm manner. You MUST do things in a calm manner and reinforce with positive reinforcement.

Like when my 'toos decide flying on the 42" TV is OK place to fly and perch. Well I just calmly get up and pic them up and either have them fly back to an appropriate spot (I like to allow them to choose) or take them with me to the couch or put them on a playstand, etc.And then I praise and love up on them for being in appropriate spots. And if they fly back to the TV or another naughty spot, I keep doing this. Its called conditioning and using positive reinforcement. You can reinforce boundaries without using punishment.

 

[Holiday]

I am curious as to how people on this board discipline their birds. Is it all verbal? ...

What do you do with a real biter? How do you discipline them? Obviously if a cockatiel bites you it hurts but if a macaw bites you people will start calling you Four Fingered Joe. So when you have a huge bird with a very powerful beak what steps do you take to ensure you won't be badly injured? Obviously you can't hit the bird or lock it away.

I would be hesitant to divert attention with a treat.

It's not about what you do when you see a bad behavior. And it certainly isn't about diverting bad behavior with a treat. It's about what you do, day-to-day, to have the bird live productively in your home so that you *prevent* and don't see bad behavior. It's about rewarding good behavior. Consistently.

My birds know how to behave; they have been trained for good behavior with positive reinforcement. They do not (problem) scream; they do not bite. They step up, and they have their routine. They talk and play games, and they are never yelled at or punished in any way. They are happy, and our home is peaceful. It takes a lot of work to train large birds for life in a home. But, a thing once done well is done forever.

The only thing that I do that could even be remotely considered discipline is insisting that they go to bed at night in their cages. But they are all trained to do so, and all get treats for cooperating, so, off to bed they all go at the appointed time.

Sometimes, I think people read threads that criticize punishment, and they think that people who do positive reinforcement and try to work with birds' natural behavior must have spoiled, crazy birds that do whatever they want. In reality, our birds are extremely well behaved and well trained. The results look more like "discipline" than "discipline" ever could.

 

[Bokkapooh]

It's not about what you do when you see a bad behavior. And it certainly isn't about diverting bad behavior with a treat. It's about what you do, day-to-day, to have the bird live productively in your home so that you *prevent* and don't see bad behavior. It's about rewarding good behavior. Consistently.

My birds know how to behave; they have been trained for good behavior with positive reinforcement. They do not (problem) scream; they do not bite. They step up, and they have their routine. They talk and play games, and they are never yelled at or punished in any way. They are happy, and our home is peaceful. It takes a lot of work to train large birds for life in a home. But, a thing once done well is done forever.

The only thing that I do that could even be remotely considered discipline is insisting that they go to bed at night in their cages. But they are all trained to do so, and all get treats for cooperating, so, off to bed they all go at the appointed time.

Sometimes, I think people read threads that criticize punishment, and they think that people who do positive reinforcement and try to work with birds' natural behavior must have spoiled, crazy birds that do whatever they want. In reality, our birds are extremely well behaved and well trained. The results look more like "discipline" than "discipline" ever could.

VERY nice post. You touched up on everything. I couldnt agree more.

 

[marian]

Sometimes, I think people read threads that criticize punishment, and they think that people who do positive reinforcement and try to work with birds' natural behavior must have spoiled, crazy birds that do whatever they want. In reality, our birds are extremely well behaved and well trained. The results look more like "discipline" than "discipline" ever could.
__________________

I so agree with you
John great thread...thank you for posting.

 

[JLcribber]

Sometimes, I think people read threads that criticize punishment, and they think that people who do positive reinforcement and try to work with birds' natural behavior must have spoiled, crazy birds that do whatever they want. In reality, our birds are extremely well behaved and well trained. The results look more like "discipline" than "discipline" ever could.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I think GSDs in particular need a very firm hand. Do you find your dog more intelligent than your bird or your bird more intelligent than your dog? I find my dog to be much more intelligent. I suppose there must be different ways to measure intelligence for dog and for birds.

I am curious as to how people on this board discipline their birds. Is it all verbal? I usually verbally admonish my birds if they are chewing on something they shouldn't by just saying "Leave that alone Iggy!" and they will stop chewing. The only one of my birds that bites is Iggy and she has never drawn my blood though she did rip into my boyfriends hand one time. Squeaky sometimes lightly nibbles me arm but has never bitten me. He has also drawn blood from my boyfriend though.

What do you do with a real biter? How do you discipline them? Obviously if a cockatiel bites you it hurts but if a macaw bites you people will start calling you Four Fingered Joe. So when you have a huge bird with a very powerful beak what steps do you take to ensure you won't be badly injured? Obviously you can't hit the bird or lock it away.

I would be hesitant to divert attention with a treat. I don't do that with my dogs or my birds. My dog is trained to drop anything on command but I never taught him by offering him something else if he dropped what he had. I wanted him to know that when I say "Drop it" he should drop it no matter what. He is also trained not to touch chicken bones on the street, which is very useful.

Dogs do not need a "firm hand", they need a skilled and compassionate owner who will set good boundaries (which can absolutely be done with positive reinforcement), be smart about doling out resources and who is skilled in reading body language. I train dogs professionally and I can tell you that the owners who get in the most trouble are the ones who think that they "need to show the dog whose boss". GSD are extremely sensitive and very responsive to body language.

Dogs aren't "smarter" than birds and birds aren't "smarter" than dogs, it's just not that simple. Measuring intelligence is a really difficult thing to do because humans tend to measure everything against human intelligence. How can you say one is smarter than the other? It's like measuring intelligence of dogs breeds, you can't because they all excel at something.

Really good trainers set the animals up to get it right so that punishment and discipline isn't necessary. The only discipline required is of me to be patient and put together good training plans and not rush things. If a bird is a biter, than you avoid triggers that create bites and desensitize and counter condition the bird to the triggers that make it bite. Nearly all aggression is fear or frustration based, so if you deal with that fear or frustration the bird won't have to bite anymore. Pair that with reinforcing the heck out of the things you do want and the biting goes away. Learning the birds body language is really important too. Most birds (and dogs for that matter) give early subtle signs way before they bite but those signs go ignored and they are pushed to bite.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

It's not about what you do when you see a bad behavior. And it certainly isn't about diverting bad behavior with a treat. It's about what you do, day-to-day, to have the bird live productively in your home so that you *prevent* and don't see bad behavior. It's about rewarding good behavior. Consistently.

My birds know how to behave; they have been trained for good behavior with positive reinforcement. They do not (problem) scream; they do not bite. They step up, and they have their routine. They talk and play games, and they are never yelled at or punished in any way. They are happy, and our home is peaceful. It takes a lot of work to train large birds for life in a home. But, a thing once done well is done forever.

The only thing that I do that could even be remotely considered discipline is insisting that they go to bed at night in their cages. But they are all trained to do so, and all get treats for cooperating, so, off to bed they all go at the appointed time.

Sometimes, I think people read threads that criticize punishment, and they think that people who do positive reinforcement and try to work with birds' natural behavior must have spoiled, crazy birds that do whatever they want. In reality, our birds are extremely well behaved and well trained. The results look more like "discipline" than "discipline" ever could.

This is a great post and I LOVE the last sentence

 

[Bokkapooh]

Dogs aren't "smarter" than birds and birds aren't "smarter" than dogs, it's just not that simple. Measuring intelligence is a really difficult thing to do because humans tend to measure everything against human intelligence. How can you say one is smarter than the other? It's like measuring intelligence of dogs breeds, you can't because they all excel at something.

Great post, and this post really hit the nail on the head.

We're ALL different, even us people. How can one say one is smarter than the other? A mathematician is great in math and a scientist great in science, but is one smarter than the other? No, they just excel in different fields. Like as you said, Dog breeds. They are all great and excel inside their species. Same with parrots. It really irks me when someone says "african greys are the smartest parrot and budgies are the stupidest" well what makes them so? They may be great at learning to actually speak the human language, but that doesnt make them the smartest species. And sure budgies are small, and who cares if their brains are small, they're very intelligent as well! They're all great in the things they excel at and they're all smarty pants regardless of species or size of brain.

 

[Welshanne]

this has been wonderful reading the posts on this subject and realising that the ones who need to read them aren't. The people reading this are already the converted! Lovely to be able to pass on the messages though and help the animals have a better future. Thank you once again John for being so wise.