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Diabetic Blue and Gold

lotus15

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I don't have any experience with this myself, but just wanted to chime in to say that there are two excellent Facebook groups that you may want to consult-- one is Nutrition for Pets, run by Dr. Scott Echols. It's for pets generally but he knows a lot about avian species as well. The other is Feeding Feathers by Shauna Roberts who is also a wealth of knowledge.
 

missscoot

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t li
One day at a time. You are under the supervision of your vet and testing her daily. Don't feel you need to sway from your vets advice without understanding and research. These are things you should ask your vet next time you speak with her.
Thank you for those kind words. This morning I feel a little better. I am so sorry if I sound ungrateful to anyone. I am so appreciative to everyone and their thoughts and information. I just get so frustrated that there are no "correct" answers out there. And knowing that my decisions on what I choose to do might cost Mickey her life in the long run is very difficult for me. I guess I was hoping to find someone who had been through this, had found what worked and then would be able to say do this, this and this and Mickey will be fine. I can see now that it isn't going to be that easy. As for my vet....even though he is a avian vet, it appears he has had very little experience with diabetes. He wanted to have her come in for glucose monitoring for the day to decide on the amount of insulin. Never mentioned the possibility of trying glipizide first or anything else. I honestly have learned and found more information from these forums then he has been able to give me. Supplements I can give Mickey to help her, all the hormonal behavior diet etc. that I have been able to get, I had to research or it was given in kindness in these forums. All he said about diet is low carbs, low sugar and higher protein. I don't feel I can bother him with every little question but on the other hand I feel that maybe he could be doing a little more research in helping me come up with a more definite plan of action. But at this time I feel like I am on my own. So again I am so sorry if I offended anyone or indicated in any way that I don't appreciate EVERY ONES input. Please forgive me when I get overwhelmed. It's just me, old and easily confused at times. :)
 

missscoot

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I don't have any experience with this myself, but just wanted to chime in to say that there are two excellent Facebook groups that you may want to consult-- one is Nutrition for Pets, run by Dr. Scott Echols. It's for pets generally but he knows a lot about avian species as well. The other is Feeding Feathers by Shauna Roberts who is also a wealth of knowledge.
Thank you very very much for this information. Will check it out!
 

missscoot

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I sent an email to Dr. Orosz under the "contact us" section of their website the same day I first received the suggestion on this forum but have not received anything back yet.
Sent another email to them. In hopes that they might respond this time. Maybe my first one got overlooked or lost in the mail.
 

missscoot

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I don't have any experience with this myself, but just wanted to chime in to say that there are two excellent Facebook groups that you may want to consult-- one is Nutrition for Pets, run by Dr. Scott Echols. It's for pets generally but he knows a lot about avian species as well. The other is Feeding Feathers by Shauna Roberts who is also a wealth of knowledge.
I have found the Nutrition for pets and put in a request to join but I can't seem to find Shauna Roberts Feeding Feathers. Would you have a link to that or something? Thanks again for the info.
 

Jaguar

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I went through this all when I found out my cat had diabetes. Hopefully you can figure out what works for him - it can be tough for sure.
 

Macawnutz

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t li

Thank you for those kind words. This morning I feel a little better. I am so sorry if I sound ungrateful to anyone. I am so appreciative to everyone and their thoughts and information. I just get so frustrated that there are no "correct" answers out there. And knowing that my decisions on what I choose to do might cost Mickey her life in the long run is very difficult for me. I guess I was hoping to find someone who had been through this, had found what worked and then would be able to say do this, this and this and Mickey will be fine. I can see now that it isn't going to be that easy. As for my vet....even though he is a avian vet, it appears he has had very little experience with diabetes. He wanted to have her come in for glucose monitoring for the day to decide on the amount of insulin. Never mentioned the possibility of trying glipizide first or anything else. I honestly have learned and found more information from these forums then he has been able to give me. Supplements I can give Mickey to help her, all the hormonal behavior diet etc. that I have been able to get, I had to research or it was given in kindness in these forums. All he said about diet is low carbs, low sugar and higher protein. I don't feel I can bother him with every little question but on the other hand I feel that maybe he could be doing a little more research in helping me come up with a more definite plan of action. But at this time I feel like I am on my own. So again I am so sorry if I offended anyone or indicated in any way that I don't appreciate EVERY ONES input. Please forgive me when I get overwhelmed. It's just me, old and easily confused at times. :)


Sometimes you are on your own and paving the way for the next one. :hug2:

No one has been offended and you are allowed to be overwhelmed by it all. You have already been down a long hard road to get where you are and all the information is a whole other can of worms. Reaching out as you are is the first step to finding help. Just remember you have a lifetime to care for Mickey, at this time she is doing well, take your time and make changes slowly to see how things affect her. Dietary changes can sometimes take months to show results so it is... one day at a time.
 

missscoot

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Sometimes you are on your own and paving the way for the next one. :hug2:

No one has been offended and you are allowed to be overwhelmed by it all. You have already been down a long hard road to get where you are and all the information is a whole other can of worms. Reaching out as you are is the first step to finding help. Just remember you have a lifetime to care for Mickey, at this time she is doing well, take your time and make changes slowly to see how things affect her. Dietary changes can sometimes take months to show results so it is... one day at a time.
Thanks again for the kind words. But I am definitely a follower not a leader. If I am paving the way for others, there are going to be a lot of lost people!!!!! (I'd put a real smiley face here or an emoji or whatever you call them little guys but I don't know how.)
 

missscoot

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I went through this all when I found out my cat had diabetes. Hopefully you can figure out what works for him - it can be tough for sure.
I am sorry to here that. I hope all went well!
 

Clueless

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Sent another email to them. In hopes that they might respond this time. Maybe my first one got overlooked or lost in the mail.
I'm old school. If no answer by noon, call them.

Just tell the staff you're at a loss and seeking help, that a friend recommended Dr. O after seeing her at Phoenix Landing and TASC. That you love your parrot and yes, your parrot is being seen by a local vet but he's not experienced with diabetes and you want to see if she can speak with you by phone.

Get your questions lined out on a paper so you can scribble answers if you're able to speak to her. Always be prepared with questions for drs while they talk or shortly after.

You may want to offer payment for the consult, or maybe she only works with other vets? I honestly don't know but I'll certainly ask the next time I travel to see her speak.
 

missscoot

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I'm old school. If no answer by noon, call them.

Just tell the staff you're at a loss and seeking help, that a friend recommended Dr. O after seeing her at Phoenix Landing and TASC. That you love your parrot and yes, your parrot is being seen by a local vet but he's not experienced with diabetes and you want to see if she can speak with you by phone.

Get your questions lined out on a paper so you can scribble answers if you're able to speak to her. Always be prepared with questions for drs while they talk or shortly after.

You may want to offer payment for the consult, or maybe she only works with other vets? I honestly don't know but I'll certainly ask the next time I travel to see her speak.
Unfortunately, I doubt that she would really tell me much. I contacted Dr. Speers by email and he was kind enough to email back and forth some but would not really give me a lot of information.
He basically said that he couldn't do that without seeing Mickey. He could however, speak to my vet regarding his thoughts if my vet was willing. But there was a 125 to 144.00 consultation charge. He did however suggest a paper or something that my vet should research on diabetes which I passed on to my vet along with a list of suggested tests he felt that should be administered. Which most were done. A couple my vet felt weren't necessary or at least less necessary. Cost was a factor. Luckily all tests came back negative but because of the cost of everything at that point I didn't have another 100+ dollars to pay for one vet to talk to my vet. I also contacted a well known vet down in Florida twice and never heard back either time. So I don't really believe I would have much luck. I would think that it would be some sort of possible legal issue but not sure. I even asked if they could just point me in a direction that would help and received no suggestions.
 

Hankmacaw

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Thanks again for the kind words. But I am definitely a follower not a leader. If I am paving the way for others, there are going to be a lot of lost people!!!!! (I'd put a real smiley face here or an emoji or whatever you call them little guys but I don't know how.)

You are now a leader - as a result of your love of Mickey.

Psst; I don't like emojis - been stabbed in the back too many times by people posting cutsey emojis while stabbing vigorously. So you are pleasing at least one person.

The emoji menu is accessed by pressing the smuley face on the bar above the entry box:)
 

webchirp

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I sent an email to Dr. Orosz under the "contact us" section of their website the same day I first received the suggestion on this forum but have not received anything back yet.
You should also give her a call and let them know you sent an email. They have new staff and may have missed it. Tell them Chandra (Shaundra) mentioned Dr. Orosz might be able to help. Unfortunately, their is generally a consultation charge associated.
 

missscoot

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You should also give her a call and let them know you sent an email. They have new staff and may have missed it. Tell them Chandra (Shaundra) mentioned Dr. Orosz might be able to help. Unfortunately, their is generally a consultation charge associated.
Unfortunately, I have hearing aids and it is very difficult for me to hear on the phone and especially embarrassing if I don't know that person and have to keep asking them to repeat something so I avoid it when possible. But I appreciate the suggestion.
 

missscoot

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You are now a leader - as a result of your love of Mickey.

Psst; I don't like emojis - been stabbed in the back too many times by people posting cutsey emojis while stabbing vigorously. So you are pleasing at least one person.

The emoji menu is accessed by pressing the smuley face on the bar above the entry box:)
Ahhhh thank you. I promise this isn't a stabbing emoji, it is a very very grateful emoji!!!!!!!:hug8:
 

Monica

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missscoot

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Asked a friend who had a diabetic macaw as well as anyone else (in a Facebook group) willing to give input. Here are the replies so far.


Alyce

As soon as she was diagnosed (by a blood test) I took her Completely off pellets and instead gave her mostly Nuts (human grade) with No pellets even available. This cured the polyuria symptom of the diabetes in 2 days or less. Very fast. That meant she was no longer dehydrated.

The dehydration is a big risk which can kill them Much faster than the high blood sugar itself. I gave fruit too in this phase. She was a veggie hater but if your bird will eat them then by all means include veggies, but they do need the nuts for the protein and fat content, to keep up their weight (which is often down already due to the diabetes).

It's VERY Important to make sure their blood sugar doesn't "crash"! Super low blood sugar can be MUCH more rapidly deadly than high blood sugar.
:O I always, ALWAYS made sure she had some sweet fruit - Banana, for example - in her food cage where she could get to it easily and quickly, to restore her blood sugar immediately if she was feeling out of sorts. (Hopefully their instincts will tell them to eat it.)

Make sure their "fast sugar" source is something like banana (with plenty of fiber in it) so that it won't spike her blood sugar too quickly, but make sure it's a sweet fruit and one your bird personally likes, not citrus or anything else which is tart (or too starchy but not sweet).

I was concerned she could go into a diabetic coma which kills very quickly so I always made sure she had access to Fresh fruit she wouldn't hesitate to eat, especially overnight but actually 24/7.

The brain in humans runs *only* on sugar. Our body has to be able to provide sugar to the brain or we will lose consciousness. I'm not sure if the brain of birds works the same way? But since they are meant to eat tons of fruit in the wild, I'm assuming their body chemistry (even more so than ours) is probably "geared" to have a constant steady drip of *natural* sugar available to it.

To know what is going on with their blood sugar, simply watch their pee puddle size and monitor them that way. (Not the poop, and not the white urates but the actual amount of water they excrete.) That is an extremely very accurate indication of their blood sugar levels.

Too much pee (giant water rings - way larger than normal) and they definitely have high blood sugar which is "spilling over" into their urine. (That's due to a mechanism of how kidneys work, making it pretty much universal, so far as I know.)

Once I got my bird's great big pee puddles to stop (via the nut and fruit diet) I gradually phased back in the (much less "tasty") natural type of pellets. Since it was the only thing she had available (other than fruit, veggies and some nuts) she did start eating it. (It's all her whole flock was getting too so she wasn't jealous seeing another bird get something "better".)

Please DO be sure to give them enough nuts to keep them from losing Any weight though, because otherwise they may seriously starve themselves to death quickly if they don't recognize the natural pellets as proper food.
:O
:(Birds are hardwired to be picky eaters about unfamiliar foods because so many plants in their natural habitat can flat out kill you if you eat them (birds or people).
:O

So, that's how I approached it. Our vet was clueless so we handled it much like a human situation (higher protein, lower sugar diet). Be aware also that it can be hormonal. Our bird had worse times and better times according to what her hormones were doing. I sometimes had to pull her pellets out and suddenly switch her back to the nut & banana diet temporarily when her hormones would mess with her and raise her blood sugar again. I kept a close watch on her pee amounts to see when her blood sugar was rising too high.

In the long term though, in retrospect, I would suggest going to an all natural raw diet, such as "chop" and maybe some "birdie bread" (things you can freeze) and supplement that base diet with natural pellets (any low sugar type) and supplement it also with *some* but not tons of high quality nuts of course too.

I'm feeding more pecans lately (from Costco) which are very low in oil. I also feed lots of walnuts which have *healthy* high quality oils in them. I feed almonds as well (good oils too) but I am very sparing with the cashews which are very oily. I found the best price on all my nuts at Costco. I get my pellet in bulk from Pet Mountain. (My almonds are by law sold only blanched here in CA which takes care of any poisonous chemicals in them naturally. They are safe to eat in large numbers for anyone - bird or human this way.)

Ultimately we lost our diabetic bird to heart disease, to badly clogged arteries. I'm not sure how much all those nuts may have contributed? This is why I now recommend a fresh food diet.

Mainly she was a chronic egg layer so her hormones were out of whack. Vet told us it is the Females who get heart disease (especially when they are chronic egg layers). This is very much the opposite of humans where the males are at much greater risk for heart disease.
:(

We didn't know about it until too late but her arteries were clogged up. She died of a stroke, in her 20s.
:( Devastating for us and for her companion - a little amazon who was her friend. Heartbreaking!



Jason Crean

Good healthy fats like Alyce explained are critical to birds in this condition. Coconut oil provides a great, efficiently metabolized energy source that doesn't tax the pancreas. Tree nuts are vital as well!
Did get in touch with Alyce. She was very kind and helpful. But because she was able to control her Macaws diabetes with diet, it's a little bit different circumstances than Mickey. Where she was able to just discontinue pellets and had a lot of success with that, doing so with Mickey, while she is on glipizide might not be the right thing to do. Because of the fact she is on medication, the danger of low blood sugar without pellets would be a greater risk. So my hope is that I can eventually improve Mickeys diet enough so that she won't need to be on glipizide and then can try to see if removing pellets will help reduce her blood sugar levels even more. But at this point we don't even know if diet is the cause or it is a problem with her pancreas or something else. But I am sure the right diet can only help.
 

missscoot

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I wonder if Dr Ross Perry may have any experience treating diabetic birds? It would probably be a consultation fee, too...

Sick birds vet checks and treatment - Gold Coast Bird Vet


It is mentioned in his book... e-book is $40 Australian, or $50 Australian for a book?

Caring for Birds with Love and Gratitude book - Gold Coast Bird Vet


Same info might be found here??? Page 602 for most of the info.

http://www.michianabirdsociety.com/Avian Medicine_ Princilpes and Application.pdf
Oh my....... my headache is back!!! :) Thank you again Monica for the information. But when I read the last article I felt like I was reading a foreign language!!!! Oh how I wish I was smarter. I got the feeling it was giving some very hopeful information but I just couldn't wrap my head around it. There were so many words I didn't even know the meaning of. I do understand the difference between man's diabetes and birds and the fact that it is not lack of insulin but extra production of glucagon. But I so wish I knew what the rest was saying. I do understand that it involves the pancreas. Is there anyone who has some sort of medical history or understanding that could give me the basics of any ideas or possibilities of anything that can be tried or done that might be in this article. Since the pancreas is involved does anyone know if there any supplement that I could be giving Mickey that would help support her pancreas? I mean she is getting the Milk Thistle to help support here liver. Is there anything for the pancreas that might work?

As for the the books mentioned...I was wondering if anyone had either one or was familiar with it that would be willing to share what was included on diabetes. Between vet bills, supplements and everything else right now I have to be conservative with finances until I can get the vets bills paid down. It would be very helpful to know if the book would be worth paying the money for. I would really appreciate it.

Monica, I just finished sending a facebook message to the other person who responded to your quest for information on one of the groups. She had the parrot that is actually on glipizide like Mickey so I am hopeful that she will be willing to correspond with me. I will let you know what happen. I am hopeful I can learn from her experience. Thanks so much for reaching out for me and for searching out the information above. So very appreciative.
 

Monica

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There's this quick website meant for humans.... Herbs Hands Healing - Body Systems - Pancreas

Mentions kiwi fruit, cinnamon, bigger and sour flavors, fenugreek leaves(?) and sweet root vegetables (aka yams), bitter gourd and herbs.

Jason Crean does have blends of tea he created...

Herbs Hands Healing - Body Systems - Pancreas



Beyond that, not really sure. I would suggest consulting an avian vet if you can find one who is willing to speak with you.
 

Clueless

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@Monica the last link is for humans, right? I went there for a quick glance and saw it mentioned things like garlic which we don't feed birds.
 
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