Crazy situation led me to buy an unweaned CAG

[manuelcalavera]

Hello everyone,

First post here! And long story short, I came to a country for a 2 year IT consultancy job. Here there is no updated/modern knowledge about parrots, and every idea about parrots is based on traditional breeders. Well, I went to a pet shop and was just watching the birds and saw a CAG in a small box, with a small hole on it for oxygen. Went to the breeder and objected about the CAG situation and that led to a argument and that led me to buy the African Grey: Kido.

As you can imagine, Kido is unweaned. The breader said he/she is 70 days old but when I came home, and watched some photos, Kido couldn't be 70 days old. No feather was around his neck. Anyhow, if you want to know Kido's age, all I can say is that 95 percent of his neck feathers are all in place now.

I've been feeding Kido with crop tube for 10 days now. (I know you wouldn't like it since I was readying this forum time to time since having Kido, but the breeder had been using this method since the birth and only taught me to use crop tube). Now the question:

• How much should I reduce the formula so he can start eating solid food?
  
• How to know if he's actually eating the solid foods and whether it is enough for him/her or not? When I hand feed him small pieces of vegetables, he plays with it, rotate it with the tip of the beak, scratch it a lot and drops the terminated(!) vegetable.

Reading everywhere led me to use solid foods but still hand feeding the formula to Kido. I have a container of nuts, a mix of sweet corn & carrot & green pea, a container of sliced apple and a container of amazon clay. Kido goes and tries all of them but I don't know if he's actually eating them or not. some corns seems emptied to me, also peas but I cannot tell if it has been eaten or not. Since I'm working a lot, I want to wean him soon, but not rush into it.

To help you guys for helping me, this is Kido's situation in general:
- Almost all feathers are out (1 day ago)
- Still can't sit on the perch
- Sleeps on the cage floor (like a human baby literally)
- He has got very happy and always want to come out so he can play
- He really loves hug
- It seems he cannot crack sunflower seed yet.
- He plays a lot and sings a lot in the cage
- I was handfeeding him 120-130 cc per day now I've reduced it to 70 cc. Kido's crop seems very empty these days.
- Doesn't frequently poop like before, but the condition of the poop seems good
- Sometimes still regurgitates
- I bring him out of the cage 10-15 minutes per day and he gets excited like a puppy
- Tries all the containers for about 10 minutes every 4 hours. But I cannot tell whether he eats or not.

Thanks in advance everyone. I hope I have done good to this little angel.

 

[BlueDoraBarry]

since no one has replied yet, I'll say this:

If I were you I would continue offering feedings, and let him eat as much as he wants, while also keeping vegetables, grains, fruit, etc in the cage. I hope someone with experience would reply soon.

 

[Zara]

- Sometimes still regurgitates

He shouldn´t be regurgitating. do you mean vomiting? could you describe?

I've been feeding Kido with crop tube

Was there a reason he wasn´t being fed by syringe?

I bring him out of the cage 10-15 minutes per day

That is not a lot of out of cage time.

- Tries all the containers for about 10 minutes every 4 hours. But I cannot tell whether he eats or not.

Weigh the food.


Do you have a picture or Kido? It may help other members figure out his age.


Congratulations on Kido joining your family, Welcome to the forum.
I hope Kido is going home with you in 2 years.

Maybe this link will help you in choosing food if you haven´t had a bird before.
Be sure to read all the lists, it includes toxic household items: Non-toxic for birds list and a list of things that are toxic for birds.

 

[sunnysmom]

Thank you for helping him. Are his feet okay? Can he grip? I don't know much about handfeeding/weaning...

@karen256 ?

 

[Peachfaced]

@expressmailtome Do you happen to know /or know anyone with handfeeding experience?

 

[expressmailtome]

@expressmailtome Do you happen to know /or know anyone with handfeeding experience?

@melissasparrots is very knowledgeable, however I am unsure if she has experience with African greys.

 

[melissasparrots]

I don't have any grey experience, but I can tell you that if given plenty of opportunity to eat adult food, most parrots will wean themselves. I can't tell you the exact weaning age of the average grey, but I bet its somewhere around 4 months. Possibly a couple weeks shorter or a couple of months longer. I would continue to feed him as much as he wants. The general idea behind weaning baby parrots is that they wean themselves, you just provide them with the resources to do so. I usually continue feeding my amazon babies 3 sometimes 4 feeds a day until they start refusing a certain feeding. Even then, I keep offering it until they've consistently refused it for 7 days or only taken such a small amount(5-10cc or less) that its not worth bothering with anymore. During this time, the baby should have adult food in front of him all the time in his cage. If he spends most of his time on the bottom of the cage, then you should have a very easy access bowl or plastic plate filled with food. Possibly even the kind he can walk onto and walk through the food. He will for sure throw most of it on the floor. You will for sure waste A LOT of parrot food. But, they need to go through the process of chewing up food and spitting it out before they start eating. Also, don't expect serious weaning to happen until the baby has been flying for a while. Usually they go through a phase of not wanting to eat very much so they can loose weight in order to get their poorly muscles baby body off the ground for the first flight. Once they are flying, all they can think about is flying for a week or a few weeks. During that time, they might be on and off again about formula. If he cries and acts like he wants to eat, give him a hand-feeding. If he doesn't cry, offer him a hand-feeding 2-3 times a day just to be sure and make sure he almost always has adult food(pellets, seed, veggies cooked and/or raw) in front of him. At least once a day for a few hours, he should have a plate loaded with veggies. Even if he throws them on the floor. Several kinds of veggies from thawed frozen veggies to fresh chopped. Mine always really like cooked until soft sweet potato with cooked soft rice and beans. Fed mashed together and warm. I even feed it like that to my adults, but babies seem to really like it.
One way to maybe, maybe not expedite weaning is to give about half of what you think he wants for breakfast from hand-feeding, and then put a bowl of the warm mash sweet potatoes and cooked rice with a little bit of banana mashed in front him. Put him back in his cage after his morning hand-feed with some very enticing warm sweet potatoes and then leave the room so he can't focus on crying from you. In the later stages of weaning, many babies will easily transition to eating on their own this way so you don't have to draw out weaning for 6 months. However, don't expect him to transition to eating enough of that warm veggies for another month or so. Like I said, the biggest progress toward weaning usually doesn't happen until the baby has been flying for a little while. Until then, offer him a hand-feed as much as he wants within reason (10%-12%) of his body weight if he'll take it 3-4 times a day. Don't start skipping feeds until he starts refusing them. And always be ready to feed him more if he starts crying. One day they don't want to eat, then next they are starving.
A good way to monitor health is to weigh him daily, first thing in the morning on an empty crop with a gram scale. He may loose a little bit of weight until first free flight. Within a week or so of first free flight, his weight will probably hit its low point and level out. After that, he should show more interest in food either hand-feeding or adult food. Either way, feed him so he feels secure. Babies that are hungry do not wean well and if forced to wean, will be more likely to have insecurity, feather picking or phobia problems later in life. Have confidence in the process and let him wean himself. The only reason that feeding a half feed in the morning followed by warm veggies works later on is because the half feeding of formula makes the baby feel secure so it is willing to explore other food items when put back in its cage. If he's too immature, it won't help. He'll just walk all over the mash and still be hungry. Monitor the baby and don't assume that its going to eat. Be willing to either give the next hand-feeding a little sooner than scheduled or give the other half of breakfast a couple hours later if he's too young to show interest in eating yet. Weaning baby parrots is a months long process.
If feeding him is making work difficult, you can do a middle of the night feeding so that he gets plenty of calories if you need to be away during the day. Its not ideal, but it can work to make sure the bird gets enough calories to grow and sustain itself.

 

[Begone]

- Almost all feathers are out (1 day ago)
- Still can't sit on the perch
- Sleeps on the cage floor (like a human baby literally)

He is way to young to be weaned and eating on his own. And he will wean himself. As long as he wanting and accepting food give him what he wants.
And when he no longer wants, continue offering for at least a week or two. That is how you wean a parrot.

- I was handfeeding him 120-130 cc per day now I've reduced it to 70 cc. Kido's crop seems very empty these days.
- Doesn't frequently poop like before, but the condition of the poop seems good

Stop starving him! Never force wean a parrot, and as I said, he is way to young now. He's not pooping because he starves.

 

[EkkieLu]

Welcome to AA!!!

 

[manuelcalavera]

Welcome to AA!!!

Thanks!

 

[manuelcalavera]

Ok so to give a better understanding, I'll add few photos of Kido, from today:

He shouldn´t be regurgitating. do you mean vomiting? could you describe?

It's like seconds after crop tubing him, he throws up a few cc back. sometimes it is about 5 to 10 maybe cc but sometimes it's less. And sometimes it never happens.

Was there a reason he wasn´t being fed by syringe?

I really don't know. The breeder was into this method it seemed. I really think the regurgitating thing might be me not being daft in doing crop tube feeding.

Thank you for helping him. Are his feet okay? Can he grip? I don't know much about handfeeding/weaning...

Yes I think so. I can say his feet are not strong. But as you can see in the images, he looks ok, and he goes up and down to the cage but can't reach upper section at all.

I would continue to feed him as much as he wants. The general idea behind weaning baby parrots is that they wean themselves, you just provide them with the resources to do so. I usually continue feeding my amazon babies 3 sometimes 4 feeds a day until they start refusing a certain feeding..........

Thanks @melissasparrots for the support. Several things has happened:

• For some reasons, I don't have the confident for hand-feeding him like the first days. He regurgitates and sometimes it seems to me he is not willing to eat the formula like the first days. All in all, whether it is my hand-feeding that has gone wrong or he is changing in appetite, this is happening.
  
• Poop (also shown in the photo) has turned green and it seems he's eating adult food.
  
• First days Kido was enjoying the hand-feeding, these days, I think I'm torturing him and it's giving me really bad feeling.
  
• I don't have thermometer and after a time I just "felt" the formula was hot, and this is killing me. Everything in here is not scientific. All breeders have some kinda parrot formula which they sell and say: "it should be this thick and little warm". No percentage/spoon measuring of formula and water.
  
• I will try to buy a digital scale to weigh him today.

He is way to young to be weaned and eating on his own. And he will wean himself. As long as he wanting and accepting food give him what he wants.
And when he no longer wants, continue offering for at least a week or two. That is how you wean a parrot.
Stop starving him! Never force wean a parrot, and as I said, he is way to young now. He's not pooping because he starves.

How to know if he wants food or not? He doesn't do much of pumping/opening his wings (feeding pose) anymore.

 

[Zara]

How to know if he wants food or not? He doesn't do much of pumping/opening his wings (feeding pose) anymore.

Stop using the tube to feed him. Start with a spoon to feed him. Then get a syringe. You need him to learn how to eat. The crop tube doesn´t do that, it just pumps food inside. Offer the spoon as it is safer, when you see he is trying to eat it, get the syringe, put it in his beak, don´t push until he swallows.
Here are some tips: How To Hand Feed a baby | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

Feed him until he pulls away.

 

[zoo mom]

I have no experience with hand feeding. I just wanted say welcome and good luck with Kido.

 

[manuelcalavera]

Stop using the tube to feed him. Start with a spoon to feed him. Then get a syringe. You need him to learn how to eat. The crop tube doesn´t do that, it just pumps food inside. Offer the spoon as it is safer, when you see he is trying to eat it, get the syringe, put it in his beak, don´t push until he swallows.
Here are some tips: How To Hand Feed a baby | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

Feed him until he pulls away.

I called an expert in the UK and asked her whether it is ok to back off from tube and do the spoon/syringe. She got an interesting idea. She said I shouldn't do this as Kido might love the new feeding process and begin to get used to it, therefore the weaning gets interrupted/delayed.

What's your idea everyone?

 

[Zara]

Very interesting, but I would do it.

If weaning gets delayed it´s no big deal. The bird willñ wean when he´s ready.
All my birds weaned when they were ready to, not because it was week X and now they must wean.
I don´t follow a set schedule, baby hungry? I feed it. I am not strict on CCs either. I feed until they pull back, or until crop is full. I do make note of how much they are eating though, so I can see when they eat less - which a chick will naturally do whilst weaning. I also keep jotting down the birds weight every morning.

Keep the dish of pellets available and keep offfering fresh vegetables and fruits both on a plate and by hand.

Also, if he does love the new process, try offering mashed sweet potatoes on a spoon. If he eats it, then tip it onto his plate.

I have never tube fed. I would only do it if the bird was refusing to eat and lost too much weight. I always thought tube feeding was for emergencies only and not for begginers. I have handfed so many times I could do it in my sleep... but tube feeding intimidates me and I wouldn´t be confident doing it, it would be a last resort for me.

(I am not a vet, these are just my opinions and how I raised my chicks)

I would be intrested to hear what other members think

 

[manuelcalavera]

Thanks to @Zara, I thought I should give the syringe a go. It felt AMAZING! I felt the connection and the whole feeding thing. But Kido backed off really soon, and didn't open his mouth and he even didn't swallow the last two pushes of the syringe.

He does not show if he is hungry or not anymore. Haven't seen the pumping pose for more than 3 days. So I don't know when he needs to be fed. (He's out now and he's trying to fly but he can't take off)

 

[Zara]

Just be very careful with the syringe. Did you read the link I posted? It has some good advice.

My lovebird baby has grown abnormally slowly, meaning she was introduced to adult food much later than usual. She is still being handfed and I have the same thing now. I just kept offering the food at the times I would have fed her before. I was down to three feeds recently, and this last week we have done only 2 feeds and cut out the middle feed. She doesn´t cry for food. She eats the things in her cage. But she still eats from the syringe. More so in the mornings than night. You might waste formula making it but it is better than the bird going hungry. If you find there is a feed during the day that he won´t eat or only eats one mouthfull of, then after about a week of offering, cut that feed off the menu. - I hope that makes sense and wasn´t too rambly.

 

[Begone]

How to know if he wants food or not?

As long as he swallow he wants food. Not all parrots beg for food. And to him you are not his parents as you are his second feeder.

She said I shouldn't do this as Kido might love the new feeding process and begin to get used to it, therefore the weaning gets

Stupid vet! Their is nothing wrong to hand feed them for a long time. That is also what their parents do in the wild if it's necessary. .
And they even comfort feeding older babies if they need it.

So I don't know when he needs to be fed.

When he's crop are almost empty.

(I am not a vet, these are just my opinions and how I raised my chicks)

Do not downgrade your knowledge.
I trust people more that have personal knowledge then any aducation.
I also heard vet leaving very bad and wrong advices.
And also you will soon be in Guinness book as longest hand feeder ever of a lovebird.
You know alot about hand feeding parrots.

 

[Zara]

Their is nothing wrong to hand feed them for a long time. That is also what their parents do in the wild if it's necessary. .
And they even comfort feeding older babies if they need it.

Expanding on this, @JLcribber posted a very interesting read recently.
@manuelcalavera here is the link, When do I Know He's Ready to Wean? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

 

[manuelcalavera]

I will read it Zara tomorrow morning.
Just to update about syringe feeding:
Kido did not want the formula. He kept his head down and it was very hard to open his mouth. first shot, he kinda swallowed it but the next ones he just tasted them and left them to drop from his mouth. After 5 minutes, he went on his nut container and started eating while sleeping! lol

Edit: He has another container of pea, corn and carrot. But since he didn't eat his formula, I put another container of very small slices of apple in his cage so in the midnight he might go for it.