• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Cockatiel: First time handfeeder - rejected newborn *Sad update post #31*

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
Hello everyone. Long story short, I have a newborn tiel that was rejected by its parents since day one and I have no options but to handfeed it (or euthanasia). I didn't really plan on this egg hatching. It is now almost 4 days old and I am trying to give it a fighting chance.
My main concerns right now are that it's just not growing, it's taking on air when feeding, and it's not able to stand/sit properly.

Balance issue: Particularly after it feeds and it's crop is full (full-ish? I have no idea if I'm giving it too much formula because the crop gets scary big), it will often roll on its back and have difficulty rolling back. When it's not on its back, it just lays down on his chest. During feeding time, it sits on its butt and extends the head up for feeding, but eventually loses balance and falls (usually on its back). Is this normal for a 4 day old?

Air bubbles: Regarding the bubbles on the crop I know about massaging to get it out, I'm just mentioning it for the sake of being thorough. I imagine the air on the crop also changes its center of gravity in a bad way because it's so light.

Weight: parents are a lutino mom at 90g and a normal grey father at 91g. At ~38 hours old it weighed 5g on the morning. I feel like it's too light. But maybe parents are feather(hah) weights as well?

Bedding material: I know about splay legs. But what bedding material should I use? I'm currently using a paper towel with the rougher side up, and it doesn't seem to give that much traction. But neither does a cloth towel. Honestly its legs are so stubby that they barely touch the ground when it is on its chest/stomach. Is splayed legs something to worry about at this stage?

Video is right before feeding, attached picture is after.


Any help/info appreciated!
 

Attachments

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
I have no baby bird experience. I will tag some people but this is also a good resource: www.ask-noodles.com.

@Zara ? @Ripshod ?
Thanks for the site, I read some old threads where people recommended a site called Just Cockatiels but I wasn't aware it was now Ask Noodles. I believe it's doing the "airplane wings" mentioned in the handfeeding section... malnutrition.
I'm starting to suspect crop yeast since the crop is ballooning well after feeding as well.
 

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
Did not find a way to edit my previous message, but I also bought nystatin just in case. I've seen it recommended around the net but so far still looking for the correct dosage. If anyone knows it would be appreciated.
 

BrianB

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
2/22/17
Messages
1,780
Aspen provides the best bedding but you have to run your hands through it to ensure you don't have any sharp pieces. In a pinch for a hatchling, a puppy pad and a roller paper towel will work fine. Roll it into a small circle and put the chick in the middle. That is usually enough to hold it upright since those little legs aren't strong enough to hold it up with a full crop. You'll need to get some of that air out, but it's difficult with a chick that size.

When you've got one that small it's very difficult to get them through the critical period until they are strong enough to stand. It's a tricky balance between hand-feeding them enough and not aspirating them by accident. I'm not sure how much of the nystatin you would give. It's based on weight but for something so small I'm not sure what the calculation would be.
 

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
This is a picture of the baby during feeding. The crop has "developed" this strange sectioning like it's two parts. Is this crop burn, or something else?
Also, he's begging for more food but I'm afraid of overextending his crop... is this enough for a feeding?

One problem I am having with hand feeding is that there is a lot of information on the net, but so much of it sounds contradictory...
Feed every two hours - but what if it still has food on the crop? - don't give new food on top of old food - empty crop every 24 hours... some say they need to be fed through the night, some say they can stay a longer time without being fed when they sleep... :unsure1:

It's a tricky balance between hand-feeding them enough and not aspirating them by accident.
You got that right... this is pretty damn hard.

Anyway, as usual, any input appreciated.
 

Attachments

Tara81

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
11/27/16
Messages
1,533
Real Name
Tara
This is a picture of the baby during feeding. The crop has "developed" this strange sectioning like it's two parts. Is this crop burn, or something else?
Also, he's begging for more food but I'm afraid of overextending his crop... is this enough for a feeding?

One problem I am having with hand feeding is that there is a lot of information on the net, but so much of it sounds contradictory...
Feed every two hours - but what if it still has food on the crop? - don't give new food on top of old food - empty crop every 24 hours... some say they need to be fed through the night, some say they can stay a longer time without being fed when they sleep... :unsure1:


You got that right... this is pretty damn hard.

Anyway, as usual, any input appreciated.
I have no experience with handfeeding, but after reading a bit, maybe the crop is sectioned because of air bubbles? Are you feeding the baby quick enough to prevent this? Are you feeding him around the clock? Are you waiting for his crop to empty completely before each feeding? Are you keeping him warm at 30 degrees celcius?
 

Shezbug

ASK ME FOR PICTURES OF MY MACAW!
Super Moderator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
4/28/18
Messages
25,770
Location
Vic, Australia
Real Name
Shez
This is a picture of the baby during feeding. The crop has "developed" this strange sectioning like it's two parts. Is this crop burn, or something else?
Also, he's begging for more food but I'm afraid of overextending his crop... is this enough for a feeding?

One problem I am having with hand feeding is that there is a lot of information on the net, but so much of it sounds contradictory...
Feed every two hours - but what if it still has food on the crop? - don't give new food on top of old food - empty crop every 24 hours... some say they need to be fed through the night, some say they can stay a longer time without being fed when they sleep... :unsure1:


You got that right... this is pretty damn hard.

Anyway, as usual, any input appreciated.
Hopefully @Zara or @Mockinbirdiva will give you some help soon.

Meanwhile these links may have some helpful information in them for you... BIRDS WITH CROP PROBLEMS — Bird & Exotics Veterinarian

 

Zara

♥❀Livin´ in Lovebird Land❀☼
Super Moderator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
1/8/18
Messages
31,323
Location
Reino de España
Feed every two hours - but what if it still has food on the crop? - don't give new food on top of old food
The problem with online info is it´s generic. It doesn´t help you and your bird.
Feed the chick, then note the time, when the crop is almost empty, but has just a little amount of food in, feed again. Not the time, work out the difference so you have a rough guide on when to check back in on the chick next time.

empty crop every 24 hours..
Correct. One time per 24 hours it must empty completely so there´s no food remaining. Best time for this is in the night. Given that we feed when the crop is almost empty, it won´t be much more of a wait until it is completely empty.
This is very important.

some say they need to be fed through the night, some say they can stay a longer time without being fed when they sleep... :unsure1:
A chick this young needs to be fed during the night. When they´re older they can go the night without a feed, but such a young bird needs around the clock feeds.
I hand fed a lovebird from 5 days old and fed her approx every 2-3 hours. They are a bit smaller than cockatiels.

I'm starting to suspect crop yeast since the crop is ballooning well after feeding as well.
If the crop is getting more air in it after the feeding has finished, you will need to contact your vet for diagnosis and treatment. If that´s not an option, perhaps a local breeder could help you out.

The Ask Noodles site that Michelle linked above is a great reference site with tonnes of info. Definitely worth bookmarking it.

As soon as you can, get the aspen shavings for your bird. Housing is just as important as the feeding for a young bird. If you can´t find aspen, you can use coarse pine but not fine pine.
And be sure to monitor the brooder temperature and humidity. Having a steady environment (where the temp isn´t fluctuating) is key in helping the crop digest food and the baby grow.
 

Zara

♥❀Livin´ in Lovebird Land❀☼
Super Moderator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
1/8/18
Messages
31,323
Location
Reino de España
I have no idea if I'm giving it too much formula
Feed the bird 10% of their body weight. Weight the chick on an empty crop in the morning, then feed that much for the day. You can go up to 15% but don´t go over it. Remember you will feed them again before that crop completely empties anyway. So if your bird is 5g, then you can feed 0.5CC (up to 0.7CC).
The weight should increase daily so the food amounts will also change daily. Very important to weigh on an empty crop before the first feed so you know the accurate bird weight and also the correct food amount for that day.

Also, he's begging for more food but I'm afraid of overextending his crop... is this enough for a feeding?
Stick to the amounts above. 10%, no more than 15%. Even if they still beg a little, there should be enough food in the crop for them and you will feed them again before that food is all fully digested so they don´t suffer with hunger.

Double check that the formula is prepared perfectly as per package instructions. In the first week the formula consistency changes a lot, you need to keep up with it as directed by the manufacturer.
 

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
I have no experience with handfeeding, but after reading a bit, maybe the crop is sectioned because of air bubbles? Are you feeding the baby quick enough to prevent this? Are you feeding him around the clock? Are you waiting for his crop to empty completely before each feeding? Are you keeping him warm at 30 degrees celcius?
Yes, thinking about it it could be the air bubbles causing the sectioning. Unfortunately I don't believe I can feed it quick enough due to the quality of the cheap syringe I have, it allows no fine control over the flow (either a few drops or a jet).
I was feeding him around the clock, not so much now since he is not emptying the crop. He is being kept at around 32C.

The problem with online info is it´s generic. It doesn´t help you and your bird.
Thanks for the info provided. I more or less had read all you said before online, but at different times on different websites. I wish I'd come across all this info together in a package sooner :(

Yesterday, one hour after I fed it (and took that picture), it started to beg for food constantly. I fed it a little more with some drops of nystatin on the formula and unfortunately I believe it has aspirated. It's not doing it now, but after the feeding it kept gasping for quite a while. Right now it's just weak and lethargic, still with a bit of food on the crop. The rest of the crop space where food was, was filled with gas that I mostly managed to massage out. Regarding bedding, I'll keep it in mind in case it gets better. Aspen is not available in my country but pine sure is.

I'll see if I can take it to a visit with a general vet today, but... not a lot of hope, particularly if it aspirated. Though to be painfully frank this vet is somewhat clueless with birds. A few years ago I took one of my birds (this chick's mother, actually) with a stuck egg and he couldn't diagnose it because he felt around and it wasn't hard like an egg... because it was a soft-shelled egg. Calcium deficiency. He recommended an avian vet but I can't really take this bird 50+ miles for this (not to mention I don't know if it would actually survive all the literal bumps on the road since it can't balance or grab onto things).
 

Zara

♥❀Livin´ in Lovebird Land❀☼
Super Moderator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
1/8/18
Messages
31,323
Location
Reino de España
the quality of the cheap syringe I have, it allows no fine control over the flow (either a few drops or a jet).
Go to your nearest chemist and buy a syringe. Ask for a 0.5CC if they have one, if not then a 1CC. If it has the needle attached ask them to remove that and discard it.

He is being kept at around 32C.
Up the temperature gradually, currently the temp should be closer to 33.5-34C.

not so much now since he is not emptying the crop
This is very concerning. Could be the start of slow crop. If slow crop is left untreated it will become crop stasis.

Aspen is not available in my country but pine sure is.
Get coarse pine, and put an unscented kleenex (a normal one without any oils or other things added) on top of the chips to soften it a bit.
 

Tara81

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
11/27/16
Messages
1,533
Real Name
Tara
Zara has experience. All her info is accurate. Hoping for the best.
 

Mockinbirdiva

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
11/20/09
Messages
11,338
Location
South Carolina
Real Name
Andrea
Following to see your progress and hoping for the best for your chick. You haven’t mentioned what temp you are feeding the formula, the formula you are using, and how you are heating the container. Here is an link to a section in our forum “Nursery Rhyme Drive” that will provide great resources for you to read.
 

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
Following to see your progress and hoping for the best for your chick. You haven’t mentioned what temp you are feeding the formula, the formula you are using, and how you are heating the container. Here is an link to a section in our forum “Nursery Rhyme Drive” that will provide great resources for you to read.
I'm using a store-bought formula that is available on my country, that supposedly is specific for psittacine juveniles. I start feeding when the temperature of the formula is between 38 and 40 C.
I didn't mention the container before because I am somewhat ashamed of its makeshift nature... I am keeping it in a small, upside down plastic container with a hole drilled on top for circulation, positioned above my computer's top exhaust fan. I use a paper towel as flooring with some pinholes on it to allow circulation of hot air. There's some soft fabric inside so it can snuggle on something. I was leaving this fabric to the side of the container but now I'm covering most of the floor with it because the chick may be a little more comfortable lying on it. I check the temperature very frequently with a digital thermometer that is left in place. It's usually 32~33.5C. Since there is a source of hot air (as in, it's not still air), I'm afraid of 35C being too hot (think oven vs. convection oven). There is airflow on it but even though it's on top of a fan it's not "windy" (there's too much stuff on top of it to actually push air fast). I can move the container around to modulate the temperature; I'm also running software to stress-test the machine to make it exhaust hotter air. The real downfall of this setup is that I can't control humidity, but the problem is that I don't own a hygrometer anyway and the local shop where I thought I would find one, didn't have them in stock. I've bought an halogen lamp and was making plans on making something sturdier out of a plastic organizer box, but I put this plan on hold because of the following...

Unfortunately, the chick is getting to a real bad shape. I believe at some point my impromper technique must have distended/stretched the crop and it caused food to settle below the "tube" that takes it to the stomach (saw this in one of Susanne's diagrams, can't find it now, forgot the name of the "tube"). So sour crop/slow crop/crop stasis is definitely an actual issue since it actually is digesting formula that I give it, but there's always a bit on the bottom. Crop yeast too since I saw the characteristic "snowflakes on the inside of the crop" and the gas ballooning. I am giving some nystatin to try and fight this. Trying to fight the slow crop with more frequent feedings of more diluted formula. It also has developed some black spots on the stomach/gizzard that I saw somewhere was signs of intestinal blockage.

My parents have agreed to pick the chick up here to where they live and there's an avian vet, so it's getting a look at from an avian some ~14 hours from now, assuming it makes it. Will keep you all informed. Thanks everyone for all the helpful replies. Even if it things go sideways this thread maybe will help someone in the future.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Biz

Tara81

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
11/27/16
Messages
1,533
Real Name
Tara
I don’t know if this is any help? You can probably use vet wrap.

E8D283DD-2B88-4EB3-BA30-311A259DC616.png
 

Tara81

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
11/27/16
Messages
1,533
Real Name
Tara
At least you are giving this chick a fighting chance. I applaud you. When my budgie was sick , I had no easy task of trying to feed and medicate him. But that is no where as difficult as feeding such a young chick.
 

pavel

Moving in
Joined
2/22/23
Messages
10
I don’t know if this is any help? You can probably use vet wrap.

View attachment 423757
Yes, that's the picture I was referring to... the proventriculus. Good find. However I am in Brazil and sadly I suspect most veterinarians here have not heard of "vet wrap". I can't recall any other materials that adhere to themselves but not to other things. I've found some vet wrap online, but it's actually imported (so weeks/months of delay and hefty import taxes). But I will ask my parents to show this picture to the veterinarian and maybe we can stitch something up. Though it's scary to think of wrapping up such a smol birb in anything that might constrict it.

Also, update, good news and bad news: the bad news is that the avian vet that was going to see the baby fell ill himself! So he's taking a day or two off. The other avian vet we found will only come to the city monday. Hopefully the chick will hang on for at least a little while.
The good news is that it seems the nystatin might be helping. While the last time I saw the chick it still had white specks inside the crop, it has not seriously ballooned since. I also fed it for half a day with more diluted formula and once gave him a swish of saline water and massaged the area where the formula was "sticking" and it seems to have worked in getting his crop moving. My parents report that it is both eating and emptying its crop. While the weak formula definitely did not have help its malnourishment (it still looks like a 3-day old, the poor fella), hopefully I made the right choice in getting the crop moving (though obviously a flush by an expert would probably have been better). It had also fell silent except when eating and my mother says it is now sometimes chirps when awake (as it was doing before it developed these yeast/slow crop issues).

The veterinarian that was available at the clinic offered to keep it there with someone to feed it overnight, but since the night vet was not knowledgeable about birds at all, all she would do is feed it and keep it at the right temperature. We decided to keep it at home for the time being. We can probably also react faster to things like the ballooning and fungal infections than an untrained, worried vet. Though after a video call with the avian specialist she was frank that its survival chances are rather slim. Hopefully I can update you all again with good news.
 

Shezbug

ASK ME FOR PICTURES OF MY MACAW!
Super Moderator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
4/28/18
Messages
25,770
Location
Vic, Australia
Real Name
Shez
Vet wrap is pretty common in the human medical field also- a simple search of something along the lines of self adhesive bandages should get you a hit or two- it does not have to be vet wrap, just self adhesive bandage
 
Top