very sad news

[greys4u]

Thats okay, bokkapooh, you are concerned and I appreciate your concern.

 

[greys4u]

Valentines diet is Harrison and dehydrated veggies, nothing showed up until recently

 

[parrotluv]

Sorry for the news

 

[Hankmacaw]

I have had no personal experience with ABV or PDD, but I do know that there is a not blood test for PDD. ABV can be tested for but the process is far from perfect and severl tests need to be run at different times. PLEASE ASK YOUR VET WHY HE IS SAYING PDD. You have every right to explanations of his reasons and methods. PDD can only be diagnosed from performing histopathologys on tissues such as the crop - and even then it can be missed, if the tissue doesn't happen to have PDD virus in it.

In my experience with my very sick birds, bronzing around the poop was an indication of kidney issues, or possibly livver issues. Many vets when they are stumped run to the PDD diagnosis.

 

[Macawnutz]

Proventricular Dilatation Disease and Avian Borna Virus | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

I think the statistics are 40% of companion birds will test positive for some "form" of ABV and never show symptoms of PDD. There are also many different strains of ABV that people don't really know about.

TOO OFTEN vets will come to the conclusion of ABV or PDD and it drives me mad that they are NOT clearly explaining what they do and don't know.

I have never heard of rust color poop being a symptom of either... Is there another thread explaining your issues?

 

[greys4u]

yes, I dont know when I wrote it tho

 

[mythic55]

yes, I dont know when I wrote it tho

There is a not a blood test for PDD you need tissue samples- and even then- it is dependent on where the virus is at the time of testing.
ABV has a very high rate in birds, most asymptomatic.

Bronzing around the poop would lead me to believe kidney issues.

 

[Greycloud]

I found your other threads an rust colored feces. This is not a symptom of ABV OR PDD. It is a symptom of lead, aNd metal and zinc poisoning. I suggest blood test specifically for these metals. Take the time to look up Poopology/parrots on Google. I am unable to share links with my Kindle.

 

[mythic55]

@Greycloud
Yes good point, poison- especially metal, etc (from the cage, a toy) and can also be E. coli (anything that would stress the liver/kidneys).

____

BTW, I am in no way trying to criticize your vet, it is just that from a AVB (bloodtest) you cant conclude PDD. The blood test could have been positive for ABV... but I think it is something like 50% of birds have that and that does not mean they are even ill.

It is worth a call back to your vet, and have them explain everything again.

 

[gibsongrrrl]

I don't know what your birds systems are but metal tox and PDD can present very similarly. That happened with one of mine. after having an episode of vomiting, not being able to keep food down or poop for several hours until finally dropping a huge bomb, she was thought to have PDD. The ABV test came back positive and an X-ray taken to look for a blockage showed a slightly enlarged proventriculus but she wasn't responding to the treatment. I did research and found that that the only thing with similar symptoms was metal tox, found where she was chewing paint off her cage bars. Even found it in her droppings, so I had her tested and she was positive for lead and zinc and immediately started improving with the chelation treatment. Actually gained ten grams above her previous normal weight by the end of it.

 

[webchirp]

Yes, please get a second opinion or extra tests. I know several people with extensive experience and that does not sound like any symptoms they have ever mentioned.

 

[Clueless]

Just me, but I think I'd tell the vet my friends told me to test for the metals too (if uncomfortable, add that I forgot when the bird was there). Stand firm for that test.

If it comes back positive, you can discuss then.

I would think few drs want to admit they could be wrong. If you like the vet there is no reason to change unless he won't work with you. We are all human.

If there is a possibility it could be something else, I know I'd be looking.

I personally have no experience with these issues, but it sounds like several here have.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Valentines diet is Harrison and dehydrated veggies, nothing showed up until recently

Harrisons is great. And so are dehydrated veggies. But perhaps he should be given more foods with higher moisture content. The kidneys need moisture.

Dry foods like pellets and dried veggies and fruits are fine and quite healthy but they really need fresh produce and other goods with high moisture content.

 

[95talongirl]

Seconding, and thirding, and fourthing everyone here.

There is no blood test for PDD. That has to be confirmed either by a biosopy or in necropsy. I actually switched vets over this nightmare. The original vet was way to quick to assume PDD on everything. When they referred to my house as being a"bonra home", and basically stating Mopar was now going to develop PDD and die; that was the last straw. :/

The problem with the ABV test is that there are.. like 7 know strains of the virus. The blood test available to us doesn't differentiate between them. Some of them (and IIRC its strains 2 and 4) are the ones that tend to cause issues. So, as stated above, you get a bunch of "positive" birds, that will never develop PDD their entire lives.

There's still a bunch of unknowns with this disease. It sucks to go through, it hurts to heard the dreaded ABV+ word, but try not to let it get to you.... I would get a second opinion.

 

[Princessbella]

If it turns out to be PDD, you and your vet can look into compounding pharmacies. They should be able to help you with the celebrex

 

[Wasabisaurus]

There is no definite test for PDD. Abv is tested wih blood. If your vet sent the bollwork to the OHIO Lab have them resend it to Texas A&M. Ohio has many falso positives. Again, your vet should not hav told you the bird is positive for PDD. There is no test unless they did a biopsy and it showed positive. There is no bloodwork for the test.

That OHIO lab said Wasabi has ABV when he did not. He was tested a total of THREE time by Tx A&M and by, I think, the University of Georgia where Dr. Branson Richie practises and he is very respected in the field.

University of Georgia Research Foundation, Inc. Research Awards : Recipient

Texas A&M and Dr. Ian Tizzard, Director of the Schubot Centre

Schubot Exotic Bird Health Center
- Schubot Exotic Bird Health Center | Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences
Ian Tizard

*I urge you to contact have your bird re-test. It has been found that birds intermittently shed the virus, so fecal samples should be collected over time. I think it's two weeks.*

It was Kathie of MSBS who urged me to get Wasabi retested. I am so glad I did. Words can't express it.

Some people do not believe the ABV causes PDD. From speaking to Dr. Tizzard at length for a story I did, I believe it does.

I know what the terror is like. I was out of my mind with worry. I am tearing up, just remembering.

See if you can find a place to compound the Celebrex into a liquid and can flavor it. One of my cockatiels who picks, is on it.

ABV does not mean a bird will develop PDD. And PDD can be managed.

Sorry for the long post. I just don't want anyone to feel their precious birds are doomed. There is hope and treatment.

 

[Greycloud]

I remember that whole nightmare Terri!

 

[greys4u]

I spoke at length today with the vet, she did test positive for the ABV virus with DNA showing positive for pdd. I asked him to explain that because I thought you needed a biopsy for the pdd, I can't remember his exact words but he said they did get the dna markers from a scraping of the poo. He has not been able to find a compound of the celebrex in her 1 mg. dose but knows someone whose bird has advanced pdd and is using the liquid and will be contacting him. Oh, the sample was sent to the Avian Lab in California. He mentioned the biopsy is too dangerous to test for pdd and he advised against it. Mentioned toxic testing, he will do it if I want but all the testing has not shown anything. So, at this point all I can do is watch her and if she starts showing symptons, he wants to see her asap, may have to give her another medicine in addition to the celebrex. So, thought I would feel some relief but I don't, he knew I was
upset and he said some comforting words like, she may never show anything and sometimes it just passes. Heavy sigh

 

[Bokkapooh]

I would get a second avian vets opinion and have the test for ABV sent to Texas.

 

[jmfleish]

I agree with what others have said, you do not know for sure that ABV tests that are positive even mean that your bird has ABV and at this time we do not know that ABV even causes PDD, although the link is pretty indicative. That is absolutely not to say that a bird that does have ABV is ever going to develop PDD. I would strongly suggest you seek a second opinion because, and I say this with the utmost of information behind me, there is NO KNOWN TEST for PDD in a live bird at this point. Yes, they can do a crop biopsy which is dangerous and most likely worthless because a negative crop biopsy means nothing other than the fact that where they took the biopsy means that they did not hit a lesion. A crop biopsy can only tell you that you do have PDD if and only if they actually hit a lesion upon the crop biopsy and the chances of that actually happening are slim to almost not going to happen, so it's almost a completely and totally useless tool and it is a fairly dangerous test to perform.

If I were you and my bird wasn't showing a single sign of PDD, even with an ABV positive test, I would not treat for PDD. First of all, the drugs for PDD are not cheap. Second of all, why treat something your bird isn't even showing symptoms of? PDD can manifest in one of two ways. What happens with PDD is that lesions grow on the neuropathways causing all sorts of issues in the bird. You will either see this in eating issues or you will see it in neurological issues, sometimes you can see it in both but generally, you see it in one way or the other. Your bird will start having severe balancing issues or he can't see because it affects the brain and the eyes. Or your bird's proventriculus is affected and no matter how much he eats, he can't digest his food so he will start to lose weight at an amazing speed even though he eats amazing amounts of food and you will start to see undigested food in his feces. If you aren't seeing any of these signs, I would say you do not have a bird with PDD. They can do tests and can say that your bird *probably* has PDD based on these symptoms and things like a barium swallow and how slowly the crop and proventriculus is working or the crop biopsy if they do find lesions upon inspection of the biopsy which almost never happens. They can't say with certainty that your bird has PDD until death and even then, they might not see it on gross necropsy...they can only see it on histopathology.

I also agree with everything everyone else has said about heavy metal poisoning and I would highly suggest you run a blood test for zinc and lead before you sign up for celebrex. I'm amazed that any vet would tell you that you have a PDD positive bird because you simply cannot tell and just because a bird comes back positive for ABV means absolutely NOTHING about the bird having PDD now or EVER! I beg of you to get a second opinion and to run that HMP blood test. Your bird's life may depend on it.