Urgent *UPDATE POST #58* Itty bitty feetsy- I see it but the vet doesnt?

[mythic55]

Saya- my amazing bird with 9 lives has something wrong with her. Despite her really stressful birth, etc.
(for those who dont know, I raised her from a egg after a traumatic event, and her body didnt delevope quite right, she almost died, many, many times).

Background:
Saya has made a clicking sound very faint after long flights. Because her organs were not fully developed, I assumed it was nothing (so did the vet). They said 'lungs not developed properly'- keep doing short free flight sessions. Well, saya doesnt do free flight unless I will her to leave me... I have to open the cage door and run away so she flies after me.... then put her back in and repeat. She NEVER wants to leave my side.

Fast forward a few months, I note a small lesion on her foot. I assumed bickering with her sister something happened. But there was no swelling so I treated with topical antibiotics and it cleared up very quickly. She did not seem to be in any pain.

I noticed a few more from time to time.... (none on her cage mate) so I assumed she was hurting herself somehow on the cage considering she is a wild child and throws tantrums if I dont let her sit on my shoulder. I went through the enclosure with a fine tooth comb (and a black light) to see what I could find, and nothing.

Current symptoms:
1. Feet and legs are swollen.
2. Seems to be a hardening, or thickening of the tissues
3. There is another small laceration on the back- not on the bottom. None of the sores are on the bottom of the feet, only the sides.
4. The feet apear scaly, dry and I noticed she seems irritated when I touch them.
5. Her clicking sound is very loud, and all the time.
6. NO vitamin deficiencies, that I am positive
7. She seems to switch her feet often, sometimes lifting one up

Im thinking mites. But no other birds have any symptoms.
I take her to the vet, and the vet says 'I dunno... they dont look swollen to me?'

Im thinking Gout? Air sac mites? Scaly mites?
Vet sends me home, basically telling me im nuts and she doesnt see it, nor does she want to spend any more time on a finch. As 'its amazing she is tamer than most parrots! but why not just go buy a new one?'

I stomped home. Here it is: started her on S76- which is the commonly used products for all kinds of mites. I wiped down her little feets with olive oil, and gave her extra kisses. I sprayed the inside of the enclosure with avian insecticide. I will refresh her oral treatment tomorrow, and then deep clean her enclosure.

Here is the rub:
I did another consultation with a vet, who says 'maybe she is just getting old, but S76 treatment wouldnt hurt'
Old!? she is not old. So i asked: 'how long do finches live?'
She replied: '2 years or so'
WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. (5-7..... if cared for well, this is fact, many live even longer).

So that is two vets who dont know anything about finches. I have over 40 of the little guys, and I can honestly say, I have never met a avian vet who was extremely versed in finches, mostly because they are too small most people dont even bother.

Maybe, just maybe im being an overbearing mother..... what does everyone think?

Swollen, especially in the joints, but the feet and legs in generally are very thick in comparison to any other bird in the aviary.

Another shot- note the little cut on the back

Underside has a thickening of tissue it seems, but no sores or anything (so im not thinking bumblefoot)

Opinions????????

 

[mythic55]

Ok, adding to my protocol.

2 days of S76 treatment in water and morning: wipe feet with the S76
Evening: Moisturizing antibiotic (with Olive Oil) on feet for 3 days
Second day- full cage cleaning with anti mite/lice/disease medicines... every branch, etc
Remove all animal proteins, add extra sprouted seed coated with milk thistle (liver support) and Thrive (vitamin support by morningbird)

Anyone have any other thoughts?
Feet are generally simple: arthritis (she is young and has all natural perches), bumblefoot (I have very good husbandry, and no sandpaper or uniform branches), malnutrition (not possible), gout (usually has more inflammation and no lesions), mites (most likely I think- or some other vermin), infection (no visible signs- just overall swelling)

After I finish this treatment, I will watch her closely... if it doesnt start showing signs of remission a course of antibiotics could be in order. But I cant imagine (unless it is mites- in which case after mite treatment, a course of antibiotics is often recommended).

ANYONE HAVE THOUGHTS?

 

[zoo mom]

I don't have any ideas on treatment but her little feetsy joints look swollen to me. Maybe with nodules which would lean me a little towards gout but I really don't have much experience with sick birds (just with sick humans. I am an RN).

 

[mythic55]

I don't have any ideas on treatment but her little feetsy joints look swollen to me. Maybe with nodules which would lean me a little towards gout but I really don't have much experience with sick birds (just with sick humans. I am an RN).

Thank you for the posting. I thought about gout too, but the swelling seems even throughout the legs/feet and instead of redness, there is dryness/flaking and it is in combination with being fidgety/beak rubbing. I am going to try another avian vet.... but not today. I cant imagine putting her through another visit.

Also add:
NO signs of......

• Decreased appetite
• Lethargy

• Weight loss

• Abnormal droppings

• Change in temperament

Other than swollen feet, (but also has a clicking noise when breathing, rubbing her beak, etc) she is normal. She is losing/gaining feathers regularly (on schedule) and her feathers dont have stress marks, etc. She is a perfect ping pong ball on all other accounts. I officially am dwelling now and scaring myself into a fizzy.

 

[ncGreyBirdLady]

It does kind sound like the first stages of bumble foot

Bumble Foot: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment

I hope You can treat it and make little Says all better

 

[fluffypoptarts]

You are such a good finchy mama. I hope everything is okay and that if anything, it's something minor and easily remedied.

 

[mythic55]

It does kind sound like the first stages of bumble foot

Bumble Foot: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment

I hope You can treat it and make little Says all better

Thank you for that link.

I have seen bumblefoot up close an personal with patients at the clinic... but sores are usually at the bottom of the feet (like bed sores.... which turn into calluses, and then of course a mess). I cant fathom how- as NONE of the causes are her case. OCD husbandry (she is in the living room and cage is cleaned daily), all natural branches, amazing diet (with fresh leafy greens twice a day) and actually likes her pellets- but not nearly as much as her sprouted seed with added vitamins, etc, etc.

As of now, she is taking a nap (or was before I decided to take her photo) on her second favorite perch (which is slanted and narrow). I would think if she was in pain, she would revert to the large-level perch. Im watching her closely- which is really pissing her off as im 'watching' but not 'cuddling'

 

[mythic55]

You are such a good finchy mama. I hope everything is okay and that if anything, it's something minor and easily remedied.

thank you. love your siggy btw. Saya also does not know the word 'no'... stealing parts of my salad? pulling out threads in my sweater? knocking over the bottle of water because she wants to take a bath? so needy she flies all over me why trying to brush my hair in the morning?.... in her mind. She has no issue, and cant imagine why I do

 

[Macawnutz]

I have no small bird experience, just want to throw that out there.

I would not think mites at all. I would also lean toward your feet and clicking sounds being unrelated. Gout could be possible but in a bird that size with a good diet unlikely. Can the vet do a chem panel? Could you try her on some cherry juice? Arthritis is possible but unless it's bothering her she should have no lesions. Did the vet recommend any anti inflammatories? How about a heated perch?

 

[mythic55]

I have no small bird experience, just want to throw that out there.

I would not think mites at all. I would also lean toward your feet and clicking sounds being unrelated. Gout could be possible but in a bird that size with a good diet unlikely. Can the vet do a chem panel? Could you try her on some cherry juice? Arthritis is possible but unless it's bothering her she should have no lesions. Did the vet recommend any anti inflammatories? How about a heated perch?

These are all extremely good questions!
Feet and clicking: I assumed unrelated, but air sac mites=clicking, and scaly mites= swollen feet and scaly... so now of course I question everything
Gout: that is why I feel it is not a possibility. I study diet... unless an employee was not following instructions correctly in my absence (1 month) but the abrasions are strange- and uniform swelling is odd for gout. But switched to low fat (sprouted seed) diet, etc anyway.
Cherry: Sour cherry juice? do you have a dosage? she is very willing to do just about anything (haven't found one thing she wont do for me) so either added to food, or oral in water, or syringe is OK. I want to be careful she is 30 grams.
Heated perch/anti inflammatory: Medicine could not be properly dosed for her size ... not a joke/what they have in UAE. Didn't mention heated perch, That would be something I would have to fly to another country and get (cant order online here.... no address, no postman). But I will be back in USA in October, and I am more than willing to do anything.

Taking any samples from a finch, is not an easy task. They clearly stated 'so small...' My finches are huge, not as big as a parakeet, but about 35 grams. Her weight is stable at 30 grams (she had a hard beginning and she is a female).
Vets recommended nothing. (expect saying- ' could just get a new one'). They said the S76 is a good plan (in which they did not have it- luckily i had some I smuggled in from USA). Of course I have the insecticidal spray used for small birds (topical).

She actually seemed to enjoy the bacitracin/neomycin/olive oil on her tiny tallons (or didn't abject in any way). No bath tonight for her, so she is having a fit screaming in my ear, pulling my hair attacking my water bottle.

*edited because of my terrible typos

 

[Macawnutz]

I could not begin to think of doses. @Mmmmq

 

[Tanya]

Oh dear sweet Saya! I remember the storm and her hatching!



Is it possible she's picking at her feet and making little sores? Not sure in finches, but I've had a couple of my own birdies chew hurting toes... Like a dog that licks and licks a sore spot until it's much worse.

Rhubarb's gout is probably from ABV but I learned from my vet that sometimes kidneys don't develop fully of the egg is too cool at certain stages of development. (Please don't feel bad here... You absolutely did the BEST possible for your little one!) I only mention it because you might not be able to rule out gout with even the best diet...

To answer the question: I use a 50/50 blend of tart and black cherry juices. I add milk thistle and turmeric (anti-inflammatory and pain relief) to the juice. The exact recipe can be found here. If your Saya likes picking at berries you could even offer fresh cherries.

(Note: Turmeric will impact urine color... Rhubarb scared me half to death until I remembered the yellow spice I was giving her.)

 

[zoo mom]

In humans gout is not always accompanied by redness. Sometimes it is pain and there are whitish nodules over the joints. The first picture in the 2nd set it looks like swelling with nodules at the joints.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Poor little Saya. She's had a rough time of it. I can see the swelling, but unless it is arhtritis I have no idea what you should do.

The clicking while breathing is something that can be addressed and may be linked to the feet/legs swelling if her circulation is being affected.

I think Sarah and Mmmmq are much better than i at this issue.

 

[sunnysmom]

 

[Kiwibird08]

Given her health issues, it is possible she has some kind of genetic disease that has no name or way to test for it. We don't even know all the genetic diseases HUMANS can get (nor can we test for/treat them all), let alone a vet be able to look for every genetic disease a bird could possibly have been born with. If the vet has run all the tests he/she can to rule out common causes, you may have to assume she has issues a vet test will never show. My mom has an amazon who had genetic issues show up very early in life. No vet has ever been able to pinpoint a specific condition or disease, but he's in his 40s now and has dealt with health issues from whatever he was born with his whole life (though is overall healthy because of love, good vet care and good diet). Sweet little Saya may have things happen to her that have no identifiable cause, but the best you can do is to give her the best care possible (diet, mental stimulation, short flight or alternative exercise if she is not well enough to fly ext...).

 

[Greycloud]

I'm sorry your baby is having some problems. I did some investigating. You may have already seen these links:
Scaly Legs in Birds: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment
Lady Gouldian Finch .com - Air Sac Mites
I will tell you that as a child we had six Zebra finches. Three lived into their teens.

 

[fluffypoptarts]

thank you. love your siggy btw. Saya also does not know the word 'no'... stealing parts of my salad? pulling out threads in my sweater? knocking over the bottle of water because she wants to take a bath? so needy she flies all over me why trying to brush my hair in the morning?.... in her mind. She has no issue, and cant imagine why I do

You're welcome. I'll be hoping the right treatment for the little one becomes clear. Thank you, Peachfaced makes great sigs!

Lol our little birds can be every bit as spirited and full of character as the larger ones. And stubborn! My goodness. Of course, you and all your things belong to Saya! She's not sure why you haven't given up resisting yet! Hehehe.

 

[Lady Jane]

Sure looks like arthritis to me. Heated perches are great for arthritic finches. Heat lamps are good, too. Arthritic finches tend to get cold easily. That is why it's good to have a heat source on your finch.

 

[SueA555]

I hope she feels better soon.