Trying to prevent a Bird Store Protest

[KimKimWilliamson]

Well, its super exciting that a professional veterinarian will be assisting Jen in her attempt to teach Bill right from wrong. I could never grasp why she was so confident in her ability to ensure thier safety, as being a bird owner and lover is not enough. I really hope this vet see's things for what they are, and at the very least lays the law down for him about the reality of his conditions. This can only be a positive thing, even if he does remain open.

 

[Cliffy4ever]

Also what I wanted to bring up was about him taking on "rescues". I do not think, with his years of neglect and poor husbandry on his birds, that he is qualified to take in a rescue and rehome it.

Its not just about taking rescues off the street and then selling them to homes and hoping they are good. Taking a rescue, and Re-habbing it, paying for medical bills, giving it toys and proper cage(etc), and so much more is involved. Its a very hard process to do correctly.

If he cannot take care of babies and the birds he rehomes, how can he possibly take on, take care of, and find a proper home of a rescue bird?

Just a thought.

There's a suspicion that the baby had a secondary infection during the trip, his siblings WERE said to be tested and they came out fine.
I see no reason not to test them, trying to see through the eyes of a bird lover and a person with a business...

*cringes at the though of birds mingled with business* T^T SIGH. I try to be balanced with my thoughts.

Maybe Dr. Grant will have some feedback on this.

It's been discussed to try a different carrier and not ship unweened babies. He assures me that it is unusual to have problems during shipping.
He says he seldom ships unweened babies, if they do, it's often to another bird store.
Hopefully with the impression that the store takes care of birds properly...

I don't like the concept of shipping birds... but it's done. It will always happen. I feel we must encourage people to do it right, and again, remove the need to ship through education and confrontation.

If people are doing stupid things, knowledge cures ignorance. Atleast that's my stand.

He says he's trying to situate a rescue that's separate from the store. He says he doesn't want to take in rescues just to sell them.
He brought up a question to a concern I had even before I had to bring it up which I take as a positive.
This was also stated by Dr. Grant. "Does he want to bring them in just to sell them?"
This does not seem to be the case at first glance.
A bird rescue needs to be funded... =/ So I'd understand an adoption fee.

I think he knows how to take care of birds, I just think he hasn't been due to one reason or another... These reasons are what I'm trying to eliminate.

Maybe complaints added up, the protest was a final straw, and maybe inspired some change. Not everyone has that happen to them. That's why I'm hoping this is a hopeful project.

That's my current impression and impressions can change, of course.

Today I'm catching up on things on all ends so I don't let my own nest go to shambles.The nest must be upkept!
(I was able to finish the flyer for NPLB after the vet visit. Georgie cuddled with me in his blankey as I worked on it. It's not as spectacular as the other ones, but it gets the point across, and the photography by another volunteer, Stacey makes it purdy.)

Today I want to clean all the fabies so tomorrow it will be back to work on this project. I will be out most of the day Saturday, so I apologize in advance for being quiet.

I'll try to give a read to all the new posts asap. So if I'm not answering new questions posed... I'm sorry!

 

[Cliffy4ever]

Jen, that is WONDERFUL!! I do hope she joins on to help you with this.

If she's avian certified, would she be willing to work out a lower fee to check all of his birds? As other's have mentioned, sometimes vets will cut fees for a steady client. I once worked at an avian vet that did that for one of the local pet stores (that I also worked at :-D) . They brought all of their exotics to him and he did all the check-ups for a reduced fee.

He also gave a reduced fee to spay feral cats for a woman who humanely trapped and released them. We would clip a tiny notch in their ear as a mark to who had been fixed and who hadn't. I wish I would have realized at the time what a great thing all of those people were doing. But to me it was what *should* be done.

Anywho, it couldn't hurt to ask her...could it?

She made it clear that she was very willing to help. She wants to have a good think on it. So I'm giving her that time. So as soon as she responds, I'll let you guys know.

Dr. Grant is my homegirl. lol. She's helped me out so much when it came to the health of my crew, I'd hope she would offer the same care with this project. It's up to her. I don't want to pressure her, but it would be nice.

Plus Pako is in love with her. =P Pako's a flirt, but he gets extra excited when she's around. He heard her voice from the upstairs on time during a visit, and did his happy chirp and head scoop dance. He doesn't do that to just anyone.
I'm trusting his judge of character too...! =P

 

[Vega]

He says he seldom ships unweened babies, if they do, it's often to another bird store.

Based upon what I've heard, since I've never dealt with this person first hand, I don't really believe this statement. We already know of 1 member that received an unweened baby via airline. She had no prior handfeeding experience and this was also her first baby (if I remember correctly)...so she basically had no experience period.

Please beware of little things like that.

While it may be "seldom" in his eyes (based upon business volume) that IS something that needs to end, unless he sees first hand that the person on the receiving end if fully capable of hand feeding.

 

[mizbirdy]

Jen, you are a wonderful person for trying to help these birds out. I do hope that you're right & that he wants & will do the changes that are needed to stop the complaints (at least for the most part, you'll never stop all complaints). Good luck to you & I wish I was closer, I'd help you!!

 

[Jadesmom]

I've read all these posts. You know, to protest and complain, it might make this guy just dig in his heels and say the hell with it. If on the other hand, Cliffy can form SOMEKIND of relationship with this guy and advise and help him do a better job, then there is no harm in trying. They can always protest, but she may only get one chance to make a positive impact. I applaud you Cliffy, and wish you all the luck in the world.

 

[Riley's mom]

There's a suspicion that the baby had a secondary infection during the trip, his siblings WERE said to be tested and they came out fine.
I see no reason not to test them, trying to see through the eyes of a bird lover and a person with a business...

*cringes at the though of birds mingled with business* T^T SIGH. I try to be balanced with my thoughts.

Maybe Dr. Grant will have some feedback on this.

It's been discussed to try a different carrier and not ship unweened babies. He assures me that it is unusual to have problems during shipping.
He says he seldom ships unweened babies, if they do, it's often to another bird store.
Hopefully with the impression that the store takes care of birds properly...

I don't like the concept of shipping birds... but it's done. It will always happen. I feel we must encourage people to do it right, and again, remove the need to ship through education and confrontation.

If people are doing stupid things, knowledge cures ignorance. Atleast that's my stand.

He says he's trying to situate a rescue that's separate from the store. He says he doesn't want to take in rescues just to sell them.
He brought up a question to a concern I had even before I had to bring it up which I take as a positive.
This was also stated by Dr. Grant. "Does he want to bring them in just to sell them?"
This does not seem to be the case at first glance.
A bird rescue needs to be funded... =/ So I'd understand an adoption fee.

I think he knows how to take care of birds, I just think he hasn't been due to one reason or another... These reasons are what I'm trying to eliminate.

Maybe complaints added up, the protest was a final straw, and maybe inspired some change. Not everyone has that happen to them. That's why I'm hoping this is a hopeful project.

That's my current impression and impressions can change, of course.

Today I'm catching up on things on all ends so I don't let my own nest go to shambles.The nest must be upkept!
(I was able to finish the flyer for NPLB after the vet visit. Georgie cuddled with me in his blankey as I worked on it. It's not as spectacular as the other ones, but it gets the point across, and the photography by another volunteer, Stacey makes it purdy.)

Today I want to clean all the fabies so tomorrow it will be back to work on this project. I will be out most of the day Saturday, so I apologize in advance for being quiet.

I'll try to give a read to all the new posts asap. So if I'm not answering new questions posed... I'm sorry!

I'm curious as to whom has the suspicion of a secondary infection in Stretch.

 

[atvchick95]

I haven't read all the replies

but from what I gathered from what I have read, this guy is Slick. He's been doing this for 30 odd years He knows what to say to get his butt out of any trouble it may get into, He will tell every one WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR!

he'll put on the show for every one, Yet once all is gone and its just him He's right back to doing what he was doing, and NOT getting in trouble for it, because he's that dam good!

I am sure in the last 30 odd years this man has been turned in numerous times. How many times does some one have to be turned in to get Shut down, and Court ordered to not be allowed to sell animals PERIOD

I don't know how its done in Florida

but several years ago in Ohio a Person was turned in for Animal Neglect (which is basically the same thing this guy is doing!) they did not Breed ,sell, broker nothing just owned a few horses! they were STARVING them , not taking them to the vet. etc. ONE time they got turned in went to court, got hit with a HUGE fine, Several years of Probation and court ordered they are NEVER allowed to own animals not even FISH! ever again !if they're caught owning any animal they're sentence is Jail for a very very long time!

Once a Cheater Always a Cheater
Once a Liar always a Liar
Once a Thief always a Thief

and he is ALL the above!

plus as stated already a LEOPARD DOES NOT CHANGE IT'S SPOTS!

and I'd also like to know how Stretch got a "secondary infection" when he was seriously Ill straight off the plane? those plans are Heat controlled and they do not ship birds if the weather is too hot or too cold, so ya that one I"m not believing as far as I can spit and that isn't too far

 

[NikkiLS]

OMG I don't know how I missed this thread but I am kind of glad I did. I cannot belive what this man has done and having one of our own members Ally experience it first hand is amazing. Having followed all the other threads, and looked into the place myself (seen pleanty of negative response to him and his store) it is pretty obvious that this guy doesn't deserve a second chance and only cares about the money. It really is a shame. All those poor birds just need to be taken out of that situation.

 

[srtiels]

I'm curious as to whom has the suspicion of a secondary infection in Stretch.
------------------------------------------------------
I will admit I have had suspicisions as to the possible cause being secondary bacterial problems resulting from stress. But that conclusion can also come from others that have shipped and experienced this.

I for one, from past experience with some of my tiel babies shipped by Bill (quite a few years ago) believe that is a very strong possiblity. I even went and had the parents and clutch mates tested, they were fine, and I learned alot about shipping and how stress can turn normal friendly bacteria in the gut to pathogenic quickly. At the time Bill wanted a refund and I refused, and I learned how vindictive he could be. I hope the breeder of the bird that Ally received does not go thru the same thing. A baby can be perfectly healthy when dropped off to the seller to ship. BUT, once out of the breeders hands they have no control over what happens to it. For example if the baby had a full crop when delivered to the shop, and the shop topped this off prior to shipping, this can cause problems when stress levels rise. A baby that has been handfed several days by the seller prior to shipping can also have impact on the health of the bird during shipping. The babies that do the best are the ones that are pulled directly from the nest with a full crop of parent fed food.

I've found that there ARE differences in the airlines being used, and prefer Continental because they do take the extra effort with animals to try and keep exposure to a consistant temp range during handling and flights. Whereas I have had with Delta, babies/birds stressed out with secondary problems. Time of day also makes a difference...the closer to the air cargo closing hours the more likely the air cargo handlers are going to be lax, or mishandle birds/animals in their desire to get off the clock.

 

[srtiels]

I don't know how its done in Florida
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In Florida the ONLY animals that truely get protection and enforcement against abuse, neglect and unsafe conditions, are dogs and cats, and when the humane society steps in.

Birds and exotics are governed by a different agency (FWC) and I have found that these agencies are under staffed, and work in the enforcement of fish and marine life and tend to shove birds and exotics to a very low priority.

 

[Riley's mom]

I'm curious as to whom has the suspicion of a secondary infection in Stretch.
------------------------------------------------------
I will admit I have had suspicisions as to the possible cause being secondary bacterial problems resulting from stress. But that conclusion can also come from others that have shipped and experienced this.

I for one, from past experience with some of my tiel babies shipped by Bill (quite a few years ago) believe that is a very strong possiblity. I even went and had the parents and clutch mates tested, they were fine, and I learned alot about shipping and how stress can turn normal friendly bacteria in the gut to pathogenic quickly. At the time Bill wanted a refund and I refused, and I learned how vindictive he could be. I hope the breeder of the bird that Ally received does not go thru the same thing. A baby can be perfectly healthy when dropped off to the seller to ship. BUT, once out of the breeders hands they have no control over what happens to it. For example if the baby had a full crop when delivered to the shop, and the shop topped this off prior to shipping, this can cause problems when stress levels rise. A baby that has been handfed several days by the seller prior to shipping can also have impact on the health of the bird during shipping. The babies that do the best are the ones that are pulled directly from the nest with a full crop of parent fed food.

I've found that there ARE differences in the airlines being used, and prefer Continental because they do take the extra effort with animals to try and keep exposure to a consistant temp range during handling and flights. Whereas I have had with Delta, babies/birds stressed out with secondary problems. Time of day also makes a difference...the closer to the air cargo closing hours the more likely the air cargo handlers are going to be lax, or mishandle birds/animals in their desire to get off the clock.

When I found out Stretch was not banded, I asked Bill who the breeder was and he told me that Stretch is from his breeders on his farm and that there were 3 in the clutch.

 

[atvchick95]

I don't know how its done in Florida
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In Florida the ONLY animals that truely get protection and enforcement against abuse, neglect and unsafe conditions, are dogs and cats, and when the humane society steps in.

Birds and exotics are governed by a different agency (FWC) and I have found that these agencies are under staffed, and work in the enforcement of fish and marine life and tend to shove birds and exotics to a very low priority.

well that just isn't right. A animal is a animal they should all be treated equally , they have no voice!

 

[Bokkapooh]

well that just isn't right. A animal is a animal they should all be treated equally , they have no voice!

Most places do not really care about exotic animals very well. As long as it has food and water and some sort of shelter, its "OK" in their books. It can be sick and dying, and unless someone can prove its hurt, or it has a visible wound, nothing get done...

 

[srtiels]

When I found out Stretch was not banded, I asked Bill who the breeder was and he told me that Stretch is from his breeders on his farm and that there were 3 in the clutch.
-----------------------------------------

I don't think he has a breeding farm. Years ago shops down hear did to do their breeding with some species, but learned that it was easier to work with numerous breeders and buy either unweaned or weaned birds from them. Or if he does have any breeding birds they may be contracted out to breeders for a % to breed for him. In my neck of the wood there are ALOT of very small breeders with just a few pairs of birds. Fear of being robbed by advertising birds for sale is the main reason why many breeders opt to sell to shops, so that they do not give out their home location. Bird theft is ongoing down here, and several years ago a breeder was robbed several times then murdered...so breeders tend to stay below the radar with their home locations. Many opt to not band because you don't know who will trace the band, and it could be a potential robber. shops don't want birds banded because a competetor may try and contact his breeder and buy.

 

[Riley's mom]

When I found out Stretch was not banded, I asked Bill who the breeder was and he told me that Stretch is from his breeders on his farm and that there were 3 in the clutch.
-----------------------------------------

I don't think he has a breeding farm. Years ago shops down hear did to do their breeding with some species, but learned that it was easier to work with numerous breeders and buy either unweaned or weaned birds from them. Or if he does have any breeding birds they may be contracted out to breeders for a % to breed for him. In my neck of the wood there are ALOT of very small breeders with just a few pairs of birds. Fear of being robbed by advertising birds for sale is the main reason why many breeders opt to sell to shops, so that they do not give out their home location. Bird theft is ongoing down here, and several years ago a breeder was robbed several times then murdered...so breeders tend to stay below the radar with their home locations. Many opt to not band because you don't know who will trace the band, and it could be a potential robber. shops don't want birds banded because a competetor may try and contact his breeder and buy.

I don't know, that's just what he told me. I was told he gets birds from Jungle Enterprises? Is that the name? But supposedly they band their birds.

 

[srtiels]

I was told he gets birds from Jungle Enterprises? Is that the name? But supposedly they band their birds.
__________________

I'm not familiar with the name 'Jungle Enterprises' Might have to do a Google search. Most likely they would band their birds, unless requested not to, which several shops do ask. A band can also be cut off, or a split band spread to remove.

 

[atvchick95]

I don't know, that's just what he told me. I was told he gets birds from Jungle Enterprises? Is that the name? But supposedly they band their birds.

i could only find one by that name - supposedly they only sell to the "trade" and no longer to individuals no exceptions "so please don't ask"
sounds like they may of gotten their butt in trouble themselves a time or 2 ??

African Parrots: Congo Greys, Timneh Greys, Jardines, Red belly, Senegal, Meyers, Brown Head

 

[srtiels]

"so please don't ask"
sounds like they may of gotten their butt in trouble themselves a time or 2 ??
-----------------------------------

LOL...that is how something said or posted gets misunderstood OK...what the statement simply means is thay they wholsale only to shops and dealers....and not to the public or as a retail sale.

 

[atvchick95]

"so please don't ask"
sounds like they may of gotten their butt in trouble themselves a time or 2 ??
-----------------------------------

LOL...that is how something said or posted gets misunderstood OK...what the statement simply means is thay they wholsale only to shops and dealers....and not to the public or as a retail sale.

but they used to, or that's how they have it worded

WE CAN NO LONGER SELL TO INDIVIDUALS. NO EXCEPTIONS. PLEASE DO NOT ASK.