Training question

[BobbyC]

I asked this on my Too thread, and realized this might be a better place for it. I was talking with a parrot trainer, and he had some training advice I wasn't very sure about. I try to do all positive reinforcement and natural behavior type training. We were talking about working with the really aggressive birds at rescues that won't step up or let you hold them. Obviously aggressive birds aren't going to be adopted. He recommended getting them in a towel, like you would for nail trimming, and just holding them in your lap while they are wrapped up in a towel, laying them on their back. He said if you hold them like that for a few sessions lasting an hour or two, once a day, they will tame pretty quickly. What is your guys/gals take on that? I've never heard of that and it seems kind of old school. I know laying on their back isn't a natural thing for birds. And I'm not in to breaking the spirit or dominating type of training. Is this like that or am I wrong?

 

[Hankmacaw]

I'll move my response too - it is important that flooding be rejected by everyone in the parrot world.

That wrapping in a towel and holding sh** is very old school. It is not any way to tame a bird or any other animal. It's called "flooding" and basically overwhelms an animal with fear and eventually makes it into a subjugated slave. I'm sure you have seen a cat catch a mouse and hold it - the mouse freezes in fear and doesn't even fight - same thing with flooding a bird.

Here is an article about training methods by Barbara Heidenreich (the grand dame of parrot care and training). You can see she doesn't think much of Flooding;

Parrot & Bird Training Terminology | Good Bird Training

 

[BobbyC]

I'll move my response too - it is important that flooding be rejected by everyone in the parrot world.

That wrapping in a towel and holding sh** is very old school. It is not any way to tame a bird or any other animal. It's called "flooding" and basically overwhelms an animal with fear and eventually makes it into a subjugated slave. I'm sure you have seen a cat catch a mouse and hold it - the mouse freezes in fear and doesn't even fight - same thing with flooding a bird.

Here is an article about training methods by Barbara Heidenreich (the grand dame of parrot care and training). You can see she doesn't think much of Flooding;

Parrot & Bird Training Terminology | Good Bird Training

That was what I thought too. I just know I don't know everything there is to know about training, so I thought maybe it was a legitimate thing. But I'm glad I trusted my instincts. And I use a lot of Barbara's training techniques. She's brilliant.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Here is a youtube video about working with aggressive parrots.

I would like to warn you to stay away from Parrot Wizard and Bird Tricks, both use some pretty shaky training tools, such as keeping a bird hungry. Bird trainers remind me of when I used to teach water skiing (I had been skiing for 30 years). Immediately, when someone got up on their skis they became an expert and took over the teaching LOL.

 

[BobbyC]

I'll move my response too - it is important that flooding be rejected by everyone in the parrot world.

That wrapping in a towel and holding sh** is very old school. It is not any way to tame a bird or any other animal. It's called "flooding" and basically overwhelms an animal with fear and eventually makes it into a subjugated slave. I'm sure you have seen a cat catch a mouse and hold it - the mouse freezes in fear and doesn't even fight - same thing with flooding a bird.

Here is an article about training methods by Barbara Heidenreich (the grand dame of parrot care and training). You can see she doesn't think much of Flooding;

Parrot & Bird Training Terminology | Good Bird Training

What is your thoughts on placing a chair by the cage and just sitting by them? That's something I usually do. I'll put the chair about 3-5 feet away, and face it at about a 45 degree angle away from the cage. I'll usually read a book, or whistle to myself, read articles and research on my phone, things like that. Every now and then I look at the bird and talk to them in a calm and low volume voice. If they bob their heads or twist their head I'll imitate them a bit, and then I go back to doing whatever is in doing. And I try to limit as much direct eye contact as possible.

Usually it's worked pretty well for me. The only one I've had a hard time reading is a Goffin we have. She's an absolute sweetheart. When I do it with her, she will do the head bob thing. She bends her head way down low while looking at me sideways, then she pops her head straight up with a slight hiss sound. Is that a warning sound or is that a playful/interacting type of hiss? Because she keeps doing the head bob over and over if I keep doing it with her. It's not the aggressive hardcore hiss I'm used to hearing. Her beak isn't really wide open, she isn't fluffed up, and she isn't showing any other aggressive/fearful signs. How would you interpret that?

 

[BobbyC]

Here is a youtube video about working with aggressive parrots.

I would like to warn you to stay away from Parrot Wizard and Bird Tricks, both use some pretty shaky training tools, such as keeping a bird hungry. Bird trainers remind me of when I used to teach water skiing (I had been skiing for 30 years). Immediately, when someone got up on their skis they became an expert and took over the teaching LOL.

Hahaha! Isn't that always funny? And thank you for all the advice and stuff. It's much appreciated. I'm always willing to learn from more experienced people, there's always room for improvement.

 

[Tanya]

Rhubarb does a quick bob w/exhale when she gets really excited. It's usually accompanied by heart-wing flaps (closed wings with the tips to the body and the wrists held out) and dancing.

I once saw a bare-eyed cockatoo do a slow bob with exhale and beak banging on his cage bars. This was shortly after he took a chunk out of the skin above a finger joint (he had conned me to get close enough by saying "Hello! Hello!" and waiving a foot through the cage bars. When I got within range, he reached out with his foot, grabbed my finger and had two chunks out of me before my reflexes kicked in.) Being a well-chewed parrot person, I didn't really respond beyond the initial jerk of self protection. I took a step back, informed the volunteer I would need a bandage (it happened at a bird rescue), and spoke calmly and indirectly to the bird while putting pressure on the wound. He tried his con again. Didn't work. He stared at me for a bit (maybe waiting for a better response?). I kept talking to him calmly and making indirect eye contact. He started bobbing and banging. At that point she was back with the bandage and he seemed very agitated so I walked away slowly. Poor guy must have had some rough history to learn a trick like that...

 

[Hankmacaw]

Perfect Bobby. The sitting and talking and reading to them is the perfect way to start out with an aggressive bird. One thing I included is that when I'm doing something the bird likes a lot, like chin scratches, I quit and go away before they have had enough. Makes then look forward to your next visit with peasant anticipation and you stop before they have had enough and decide to bite you to tell you to stop.

I will also stand near their cage WITH MY HANDS BEHIND MY BACK and hold a conversation. If they get too upset just say bye bye and turn and walk out of their sight.

Sorry Bobby - I don't do Cockatoos - don't care much for them. There are lots of Too specialists on AA who can give you a lot better specific advice about them.

 

[BobbyC]

Rhubarb does a quick bob w/exhale when she gets really excited. It's usually accompanied by heart-wing flaps (closed wings with the tips to the body and the wrists held out) and dancing.

I once saw a bare-eyed cockatoo do a slow bob with exhale and beak banging on his cage bars. This was shortly after he took a chunk out of the skin above a finger joint (he had conned me to get close enough by saying "Hello! Hello!" and waiving a foot through the cage bars. When I got within range, he reached out with his foot, grabbed my finger and had two chunks out of me before my reflexes kicked in.) Being a well-chewed parrot person, I didn't really respond beyond the initial jerk of self protection. I took a step back, informed the volunteer I would need a bandage (it happened at a bird rescue), and spoke calmly and indirectly to the bird while putting pressure on the wound. He tried his con again. Didn't work. He stared at me for a bit (maybe waiting for a better response?). I kept talking to him calmly and making indirect eye contact. He started bobbing and banging. At that point she was back with the bandage and he seemed very agitated so I walked away slowly. Poor guy must have had some rough history to learn a trick like that...

l will try to get a video of it and maybe that will help everyone see what I mean. But I definitely don't think it's an aggressive thing. Because there's no other aggressive/warning signals with it.

 

[Odin]

I want to follow this, although Boo is not aggressive, I am a sponge to learn all the time.

 

[JLcribber]

I'll move my response too - it is important that flooding be rejected by everyone in the parrot world.

That wrapping in a towel and holding sh** is very old school. It is not any way to tame a bird or any other animal. It's called "flooding" and basically overwhelms an animal with fear and eventually makes it into a subjugated slave. I'm sure you have seen a cat catch a mouse and hold it - the mouse freezes in fear and doesn't even fight - same thing with flooding a bird.

Here is an article about training methods by Barbara Heidenreich (the grand dame of parrot care and training). You can see she doesn't think much of Flooding;

Parrot & Bird Training Terminology | Good Bird Training

Spot on as usual ML.

You could say the term for this type of training is "learned helplessness".

 

[BobbyC]

Spot on as usual ML.

You could say the term for this type of training is "learned helplessness".

John,

A few responses above I had a question about a Goffins behavior. Would you mind taking a look at it and giving me your opinion?

Usually it's worked pretty well for me. The only one I've had a hard time reading is a Goffin we have. She's an absolute sweetheart. When I do it with her, she will do the head bob thing. She bends her head way down low while looking at me sideways, then she pops her head straight up with a slight hiss sound. Is that a warning sound or is that a playful/interacting type of hiss? Because she keeps doing the head bob over and over if I keep doing it with her. It's not the aggressive hardcore hiss I'm used to hearing. Her beak isn't really wide open, she isn't fluffed up, and she isn't showing any other aggressive/fearful signs. How would you interpret that?

What would be your take on that?

 

[JLcribber]

It sounds like wariness. Some insecurity of course. Just her way of communicating. A "gentle" warning if you will. Usually a tapping foot goes along with it.

It could be something else but we'd need to see some video of it to get a true sense.

 

[BobbyC]

It sounds like wariness. Some insecurity of course. Just her way of communicating. Usually a tapping foot goes along with it.

It could be something else but we'd need to see some video of it to get a true sense.

I managed to get a video of it. Once I get home in about an hour and a half I'll upload it so everyone can see what I mean.

 

[BobbyC]

@JLcribber
Here's the video of what she's doing. Might have to turn the volume up. The hiss is pretty low volume.

 

[JLcribber]

@JLcribber
Here's the video of what she's doing. Might have to turn the volume up. The hiss is pretty low volume.

Yup. Looks like I thought. It's also a kind of coping behaviour. Think about what you see for a moment. A bird stuck on a stick with no choice to fly or go anywhere except where he is. This for an animal who's hair trigger instinct is to just take off and fly at the slightest whim. That is all taken away.

An extreme form of this behaviour would be a lion pacing back and forth in a cage (not relevant).

 

[BobbyC]

Yup. Looks like I thought. It's also a kind of coping behaviour. Think about what you see for a moment. A bird stuck on a stick with no choice to fly or go anywhere except where he is. This for an animal who's hair trigger instinct is to just take off and fly at the slightest whim. That is all taken away.

An extreme form of this behaviour would be a lion pacing back and forth in a cage (not relevant).

So do you think I should wait to try perch training with her?

 

[JLcribber]

So do you think I should wait to try perch training with her?

I don't know what you mean by perch training. If she doesn't trust you how will you accomplish that?

 

[rocky'smom]

hi Bobby, I don't have a too but I will try to answer some of things I have learned volunteering at my cousin vet clinic with some of the birds there. baby steps, little tiny, baby steps with aggressive birds. I don't trust Fast Freddy who lives there until they can find him a home. Fast Freddy is severe macaw who recently lost his owner(death). Poor Freddy just doesn't understand what in the world happened. he can be extremely aggressive with biting to the point of the person needing stitches. last weekend was a bit of breakthrough with him, no bites and his tucking his head into my armpit (boy was I scared of being chomped on). the whole time I was cleaning the bird room I was talking to him, singing to him (should leave my singing voice at home) engaging him to the sound of my voice. opening his cage door, I saw the first aggressive move that he displays. he put his head out the door with some pinning of his eyes, no wings shaking, or dancing, acting like I'm going to get you. you have to watch for that carefully because right after that he is going to lunge and snap. I backed up a bit and let him have his space, the whole time talking to him about what he was getting for breakfast. I didn't take him out of the cage but once I backed up he settled down and Dr. Tony did take him out. I got his breakfast before he was out and had it in the cups to java tree. he was out the whole time I cleaned his cage. he ate for the first time breakfast outside of his cage. after getting permission, I move him into double macaw cage with all of his toys, blankie and treats hidden all over the new cage. he stepped up (Amazing) without a nip, bite or a lunge he even allowed some gentle scritches to his head.
I am firm believer that you have to find their comfort zone and work with it in your own comfort zone. I am not trainer not by a long shot, I am still learning to love those big beaks. I have my own problem child (Bebe) a cockatiel that was neglected and we are working thru his trust levels. one baby step at a time.

 

[BobbyC]

I don't know what you mean by perch training. If she doesn't trust you how will you accomplish that?

I dont mean actually training her to do anything. She steps up on a stick so far and beyond that I haven't pushed her or tried anything else. The most I've done is put a chair by her cage and sit down reading or whatever. I just meant to get her out of her cage so she isn't stuck in it all the time. And at some point once she trusts me a little more, working on stepping up with my hand or arm. I understand that's a long ways off. But on a good note, the other volunteers said when I'm not around she squawks a ton and then she quiets down as soon as I come back. So I think she's starting to miss my ugly mug when its not around. At least she's warming up to me lol. That or I'm a scary predator she feels she needs to be silent around lol. She does chatter to me and squeak and all that. So I know she doesn't hate me at least.